I sure dont listen to maddox, i thought the special effects were very well done.

I think your missing his point there, mate. Maddox was saying it's not the special effects themselves that were the problem, it was the use of them. I agree, it was every scene. Lucas managed to overdo the effects to the point where seing a space ship was no longer something amazing. The lightsaber fights were so over the top that they became formulatic.

Maddox was saying Lucas managed to take the 'special' out of 'special effects'. If every scene has them they are no longer special.

Episode 5 (and even 4 and 6 to some extent) had SOLID dialouge sequences and character development outside of the blasters and space ship fights. It's this balance (along with character balance, plot balance and others) that makes episode 5 a great movie and episode 3 an (at best) average one.

You see, the problem with me and Star Wars is that I really loved it. Thought it was fantastic when I was a teenager and sent me on a grand journey of science fiction. However as I got older (and had read some of the great works) I started to realise that Star Wars in certain areas left much to be desired. That was the old movies.

Of course the new ones came out that were even worse and that was the end of my interest really.

I'm reading a great book at the moment. Called 'The Forever War' it's a great science ficition by  a guy called Haldemen. Last week I finished Hienlien's 'Starship Troopers'. Let me tell you, if you though the movie was shit the book certainly isn't. I'm trying to think of some more titles ive read this year but its late and I can't recall specifics at the moment. Anyway, I just feel once you've read some of these 'serious' and 'adult' science fiction works with proper character development, complicated and dark plots and awesome fictional technical detail the only Star Wars movie to even rate on the same scale is Empire Strikes Back.

Oo, I just remembered. 'Do Andriods Dream Of Electric Sheep' by Philip K Dick. The movie 'Bladerunner' is based on it (a great science fiction movie).

It's that 'dark' element that makes the movie seem serious, draws you in and makes you think 'hey, this isn't an american cliche, what the fuck is going to happen next?'.

The new Star Wars just didn't have this. The characters were never really in danger (it seemed), the shitty everyone happy ending was always just an hour away and the characters were so single minded, one dimensional that we could predict what they were going to do before they did it.

To try and illustrate what im talking about with 'depth' in a movie, try this.

Got a copy of 'Bladerunner' hanging around? Never seen it? (gasp)
Well get it, and watch it through. Then tell me:
'Is Deckard (Harrison Ford) a replicant himself?'

Star Wars movies were only averege because the Empire didn't win.

Stormtroopers > Ewoks
Darth Vader > Skywalker
Empire > Republic

That really annoyed me, I remember seeing the movie and thinking how godly the Empire was with all it's huge battlecruisers and deathstars and legions of henchmen.

Then they get beaten by some two-bit rebels and....furry little critters who swing rocks at them....WTF!?

btw: The Imperial March is the best tune ever, it seriously rocks, the ultimate pwnage music.

hm, this is a good point and why ESB rocks the way it does.

i don't know how anybody can say that george lucas is a crap director

he's fuckin awesome, totally innovative and really what makes a good director? there is no checklist here, if there were set guidelines anybody could be one, there are plenty of shit directors out there and lucas isn't one of them.

to me a good director tells a story and they tell it well, star wars has an awesome story and it is very entertaining.

Yes it's Lucas's story.

A director has a vison for the movie. It's played out in his head and he converts what he sees in his head into what we see on the screen. So most of the big desicions like editing, script and acting really all go through him.

The reason Lucas is a shit director is because his movies are not great cinema, they are tech demos. He's an incredible tecnical director, Industrial Light and Magic is his company. However there is a lot more to a movie that special effects (or graphics in a great game title).

The reason 99% of people say they like ROTS is because it tied up loose ends. It answered questions and put on the screen scenes we have wondered about since the series conception (remeber originality is what made Star Wars famous in the first place). Did it do it well thou?

Remember:
1) Robots bumping into each other and saying 'sorry'
2) the infamous Darth Vader 'NOOOOOOOO' scene
3) Grevious. Who the fuck was he?
4) the way Anakin and Obi Wan fought and fought for ages, doing incredible stuff and all of a sudden 'I have the higher ground'. what the fuck? a second ago we were jumping through the air like ninjas, swinging lightsabers like demons and all of a sudden the 'high ground' means you just don't go there.
5) The ease of which Anakin turned to the dark. Years of training, everything that makes Anakin powerful is due to the training from the Council. Palp said a few words and bang, Anakin is with him. Don't you think it would have taken a while? At least some serious event? Oh that's right. He had a dream. I think people who base actions of real life on dreams are called delusional.
6) Anakin wants to save Padme, so he strangles here. That's right, the reason he turned to the dark and basically did masses of crazy shit he suddenly decides isn't important and does the force choke on her.

I haven't seen it for a while, but I remember when I did this list went on forever.

It's just not compelling (for me). It just reeks of a silly, childish story with no real basis in anything and all the characters are painfully one dimensional.

Last night I saw 'Raging Bull' for the first time. It is truely one of the greatest movies I have ever seen. Im normally a cynical fuck, but this blew me away.

The reason I call Lucas a hack director? Go and hire 'Raging Bull', directed by Martin Scorsese and starring De Niro in a role that makes him really one of the greatest actors of all time. You'll see its like chalk and cheese.

yeah, but what else did Richard Marquand do that's worth talking about?

to be honest the only other thing Kershner did was Robocop 2 that I recognise. He did Seaquest DSV but that was a pile of shit.

anyway, Lawrence Kasdan   returns from ESB to lend his script writing that makes RoTJ at least a million times superior to the new episodes.

Darth Vader: If you only knew the power of the Dark Side. Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father.
Luke: He told me enough. He told me you killed him.
Darth Vader: No. *I* am your father.
Luke: No. No. It's not true. That's impossible.
Darth Vader: Search your feelings. You know it to be true.
Luke: Nooooo. Nooooo.

maybe its ESB's darkness that makes it so awesome. The lack of Hollywood clichés and happy endings.

The music is something I haven't mentioned yet. If you watch episode 4 all the way through, paying careful attention to the score you'll notice the ENTIRE movie has an orchestral accompaniment, each scene with it's own brillant and spell-binding music. This adds tension and generally contributes to that 'star wars feel' that we all long for.

It's back for ESB. I remember specifically the end part where Luke is closing the panel on his new hand and we zoom back to see the medical frigate he is on. The music swells, an all too familiar undertone takes hold and BAM we hit the credits with the theme blasting. Only the end of Revenge of the Sith came close, however the rest of the score was comparatively crap. John Williams (lets here it for the Aussies!) obviously just didn't have the motivation or ability that he did 20 years ago.

yep, Star Wars is dead to me. Like an old friend that you remember the good days, but don't want to see anymore because of the way they turned out. You wish it could be like it was, but know it never will be.

The only part I can remember from the new movies is 'Order 66' or whatever when the Jedi were betrayed in episode 3. However I still think it didn't have the power of earlier scenes, the understated menace and evil allowing your mind to fill in the terrible blanks.

Darth Vader: Calrissian. Take the princess and the Wookie to my ship.
Lando: You said they'd be left at the city under my supervision.
Darth Vader: I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further.

It was also the characters. The mix was perfect in the old movies. Leia was hot and kicked ass, the perfect heroine. Han Solo, well. What the fuck can you say about him. He kicked more ass than should be legal and was a bloody legend while doing it. Hilarious comments routinely came from him but when the shit got nasty he was the Harrison Ford we all know as Indiana motherfucking Jones.

Princess Leia: Why, you stuck up, half-witted, scruffy-looking nerf-herder.
Han Solo: Who's scruffy-looking?

and Luke. Mark Hamill went on to really do fuck all after the Star Wars films. I saw him in Wing Commander 4 and again on a couple of TV shows, but really, his peak was SW. However because of this, because of his newness to the acting and movie scene his youth and inexperience was perfect for the character he played. As he matured over the years as Star Wars became the incredible success it was so did his character. By the time RoTJ came out he was Mark Hamill, lead actor of the biggest blockbuster saga of the decade (maybe all time). Hence the confidence he brought to his character in that movie was perfect for the grown and ready man that Luke Skywalker had become. Pity about the final screenplay.

Yoda: It is finished. No more training you require.
Luke: Then I am a Jedi.

the supporting cast, Chewie, Lando, Admiral Ackbar (ITS A TRAP lol) and others were all solid.

There is really no way the new movies could equal this and they didn't. Not even close. It all relied on unfinished stories, Star Wars fandom and basically the franchise carrying it where the old movies (particularly episodes 4 and 5) stood completely on their own.

I could go on for days about this lol, but ill shut up. I've written thousands of words on the Star Wars saga but the conclusion is always the same. It's dead. The longer I try and prolong it the more I shit on the greatness it once was.

yep, i was one of the biggest star wars fans physically possible.

loved it, read the books, played the games and watch the movies.

the sad fact is Lucas is actually a shitty director. His whole push is for the 'kids movie' angle of star wars. always has been. little furry ewoks destroying the best trained and equipped force in the galaxy, the new movies (for christs sake) all run in this 'its just a bit of fun' angle.

that's fine. but it means i don't really like star wars then. it took me a long time to realise this.

im a hardcore science fiction fan. I read a lot and collect movies with a passion. So when you put this fairy land bullshit up against some solid science ficition, it just sucks.

Damn pity Lucas is such a fag. Some brilliant concepts there (all stolen of course, Knights of the Round Table, the Second World War development and 'action science fiction' which I love).

The best movie I feel was 'Empire Strikes Back'. The only reason I give star wars any credence anymore is because of that film. The action is believealbe, tense and awesome. The script is mindblowing. It really is, if you watch that through just listening carefully to what they actually say and the way they say it you come away thinking 'holy shit'. Anyway i could go on.

The point here? LUCAS DIDN'T DIRECT ESB!

He didn't. hence it doesn't suck. Go and look it up. The man responsible for Robocop 2 did, Ivan Kershner (spelling..).

So anyway, Star Wars could have been my ultimate ficition. It was my love of fantasy combined with science fiction. However, Lucas carefully turned it into a pile of shit to rake in money from parents with nagging kids.

So be it, Jedi

im just popping my head in here to say, i fully meant to participate in this discussion.

but i have been doing a couple of things of the last few days and when i looked back at this thread you guys had GONE MENTAL lol and its like 6 pages now or something.

at some point ill read it all and then reply, but its just to mammoth for me atm.

so ill get the ball rolling.

Can someone tell me why i should believe in creation when there is no evidence to support it?

Futhermore besides logical conclusions from the Bible such as 'We shouldnt kill each other' and 'sleeping with your neighbours wife will probably piss him off', why is there any validity to the more abstract concepts detailed within?

Im refering to the existance of god, wether Jesus was his son, miracles and other such concepts.

traitor?

you gotta love some of the ICONZ crew sometimes.

your spinning me out. when i heard you on Teamspeak i was sure you had an English accent. you live in NZ. from that photo id say you were ethnic (italian or greek, like me )

just what the fuck actually are you, Xtinct?

alright alright.

ive been hesitant because i have few pictures of myself that dont make me look like a complete freak.

im still pretty freaky in this one, after a massive night and coming down off some crazy shit.

Im the dood on the car bonnet, with the look of 'oo pictures. take em if you want..'

this just keeps getting better doesnt it? It cracks me up when people argue over eachothers spelling. 70% of people who misspell do so because they cant be bothered with grammar, not because they flunked english class.

now were moving into fast food?

macdonalds, burger king and KFC all use excessive chemicals and artificial/baised ingredients. Dont be swayed by their adverts as they will do anything to recude prices and bring in customers. And lets not forget the food health and safety scare. in responce to that bread and beef alike are more and more synthetic as to contain less fat, grease, kilojoules and more vitamins and nutrients. I saw a macdonalds add in the US saying "our chicken nuggets now only contain white meat", whats the bloody difference i have never seen brown meat in their nuggets before anyway. Its obvious they are not interested in their burgers quality, just to steal the customers of their competitors and they will go to any means necsassary and unnesassary

Sorry laurasaur but your buying into another marketing ploy. Last time i tasted a mac burger i got a nasty aftertaste of perservatives and not an inch of grease! Man i miss the fatty greaseburgers BK used to make....ah the glory, all the flavor soaked through the bun and that barbeque sauce stayed on your tongue forever. Those were real burgers (drools).

The competition has ruined all franchises, 3 words guys: SUBWAY, EAT FRESH

ah respect bY. you can still get a sloppy joe as the yanks call em here in australia. whopper with cheese and all the grease your heart can handle. mm.. in fact.. im off to get one now.

p.s. jared is a fag

im still finding this flame war much more entertaining than the pictures..

First off QUPHOZ, go back to school and learn to fucking put sentences together so that people can understand  what the fuck you are trying to say. From what I can gather from that shit you wrote above, you are trying to say, that you have 13 year old buddies at school. Next you try to say that your brain hasnt switched off and that you live in a 17 year olds body. WHAT THE FUCK!

Secondly, stand up, and walk towards the window. Open the window (if your mum hasnt already done so, for you) and look outside. YES! there is a world out there to be explored!

And thirdly, obviously you do care about what people post on the internet, or you wouldnt bring out your education, and sick them with "OMG, U, 2, SIF, and KEYBOARD WARRIOR.

Someone obviously forgot to put their helmit on today.



Please do us all a favour and follow these simple instructions:

um lol. that was a rant that even i went 'oo what a rant'.

relax Langers and Verrt and all us in the 'quphoz is really a damn fool and not cool at all' club. he will learn soon enough that not being able to construct sentances, having few opinions that go beyond 'big tits' and dressing like a wanna be american all go from being just lame into goddamn sad around the 25 to 30 age.

forget it guys. this is just schoolyard bullshit again. you know, i saw this guy i used to hate in school just recently. he was such a dickhead, greek he was and just your standard meathead   male. it was all about his dick and where he put it, he couldnt hold a converstaion with me because i wasnt interested in him, hence he had nothing else to talk about.

anyways we used to beat up each other and his crew of greek mates used to hassle me no end (im italian, no the picture of me posted in this thread isnt real ). so i hadnt seen him in.. shit.. 5 or 6 years, since we got out of year 12 (highschool). i went to the chicken shop on the corner last week, just went to get a burger while i was going about my day, finishing exams and looking for employment.

there he was. in the chicken shop, flipping my burger. we made eye contact briefly, but long enough to see in his eyes the look of 'omg, here i am at 26, making chicken burgers'. i said 'HEY MAN! HOW YOU DOING?!' which he ignored.

as i walked out of the shop with my burger and back into my life one thing stuck in my mind about the encounter.

owned.

well that was a long story. the moral is forget it, tards get thier comeuppence from life. the real world is an unforgiving place that laughs at male bullshit.