so is there any pro religious person that agrees with the US state park, that geology and the age of the grand canyon should not be mentioned under any circumstances, due to the offense it may cause?

remembering how tolerant most religions claim to be./ thickest slice of sarcasm i could muster.

+ rep tiwa EVERYBODY!!

That sounds like PC gone mad...... tree huggers!!!!  I hate the idea to change people's lives to suit the minority!! ie.. lets let Berkahs in our Court system and while they drive... lets spend heaps of money to build prayer rooms so again the minority arn't offended..

Yes I have my beliefs but I would not stand for the fact that the majority of people are put out so that the minority are not offended... It reminds me of the Southpark episode.. banning christmas!! LOL

Haha, some little religious swine neg repped me for saying this thread was good entertainment.

I will now be negging every pro-religious person in this thread, unless they own up.

You know it wasn't me cause I just +Reped you!!!  Damn Neg reps without the balls to Id them selves!!!

Neither science or evolution are forms of religion. they are empirical fact, an accumulation of knowledge based on observable phenomena. God is not observable.

And Dustow, stfu, there IS evidence for evolution, as I have repeatedly stated! It's not too hard to find either.

And I have NEVER SAID that it is impossible that god exists. I just think that's it's a helluva lot less likely than the real reason the universe exists.

C'mon Arnifix.. At no time have I been abusive to you infact I gave you a positive rep, and for you to tell me to STFU.. I feel that you are feeling a little frushtrated that you can't find any evidence.. I have continually asked for evidence on what you believe but all you do is make more threories about our beliefs.. well since you're not looking at this objectively I'm sighning off... thanks to all and pm me if you have a question!!!

and by the way black, your argument is exactly what ur doing and sorry for wasting your time but it's ur thread...


see ya

100% correct. So despite the fact that humans were fully formed, we were simply unable to feel pain? Specifically pain? Because the nervous system doesn't tend to discriminate. And then, after original sin, oh no, pain and death and shit.

I knew it!!lol

Now yes we were fully formed and I would only be guessing (I'm happy to adn=mit it) that the nervoouse system needs something to interprut what pain is.. that's where the brain comes in.. the brain deciphers the pain and lets us know...perhaps that part was not functioning..... or alternatively... I can't beleive that if adam had kicked a rock as hard as he could he wouldn't feel it.. I'm guessing the pain that it relates to is disease and pain caused by external elements like virusa etc... again alternativly... only to give you the whole picture.. the bible referes to eve and her child birth pain after sin as greatly increase... does that mean there was some form of pain or pressure to begin with.. possibly.. like I said I wasn't there.    Now death... No there was no death before sin...even after sin, the first few generations lived to be 800-900 years old. It wasn't until after the flood where life expectansy lowered dramatically... I can give you reasons why this is but I could be typing for ages.

So to recap.. before sin we had a perfect body.. no deformaties etc... after sin had entered the world out bodies slowly degraded and yes eventually die..   Well the bible does say, "the wages of sin is death"!!!  lol

Ok, here is my proof that God does not exist. Here are some qualifications to that statement: right now, I am only talking about the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god. I don't believe in other gods either, but this one is just so damn easy to disprove. Another qualification: Though I did come up with this by myself, I know that I'm not the first person to do so. Please don't flame me just because its not 'original', remember that this is my opinion.

The conception of God that most people around the world have simply cannot exist. First, let me define what most people think of as God: An all-powerful being, who created the universe, who is all-good. Now, you would think that a universe created by such a being would be a wonderful place to live in. Of course, as we all know, this is not the case. Innocent children get raped by pedophiles. Criminal CEO's rob people of billions and get away with it. People in third world countries work their asses off and yet they live horrible lives. If God is both willing and capable of stopping these perversions of justice, then why doesnt he? The answer, of course, is that he doesn't exist.

No religious person has EVER given me a satisfactory answer to this dilemma. Here are some of the crappy arguments they have made:

1) God does not cause evil, the Devil does.
OK, this one is perhaps the stupidest one. If you believe the Devil is capable of subverting God's will and causing evil, then you believe that the Devil is as powerful as God, and you shouldn't call yourself a monotheist. Plus, if the Devil can do whatever he wishes despite God's will, then God is not all powerful. Therefore this argument doesn't fly,

2) God is all good, evil comes from man's free choice.
I don't buy this one either. God created everything (according to the religious people). Therefore, he must have created both humans and free will. Now why would he create free will if he knew some men would choose evil? You might say that evil people turn away from God, so he has no responsibility towards them. Ok, fine. But what about the innocent, good people that are harmed by the evil people? Doesnt God care? Of course not, because he doesnt exist.

3) Evil exists in the world for reasons we don't and CAN'T understand. God's reasons are unknowable because we are mere puny humans.
This is probably the best reason, but I still don't buy it. According to this statement, you are supposed to just accept evil because you trust that god has a reason for it. Now, I simply can't accept this. Why would God give us intelligence if we weren't meant to use it? If God simply intended for us to be herded around like sheep, why didn't he make us sheep? The answer, of course, is that God did not make us, because he does not exist.

-stolen from somewhere, but who cares cus god aint gonna punish me

Thanks Kill3r.. Very insightfull and the fact that you took the time to write all that means you have deeply thought about it and I respect that...  If I may, I'll try and answer you questions/statements as best I can.. I am not a scholah (you can tell by my spelling) I do however research different topics and form my own mind.

According to the bible (which I believe) the earth was a wonderful and perfect place created some 6000 years ago. this of course I mean the garden of eden where god walked and talked to man and where their was no pain or evil as you have alequently stated... God did however give us freewill to love and worship whom ever we believe. He of course is hoping we choose him. If he didn't give us a free will the nthe love we show towards him would be a waste of time.. for eg.. I the presedent of the world decree that all must love me or die.... Can I truely believe believe the people love me ..NO. Some time after the creation, man choose to ignore gods directions and eat from the tree (we all know the story)  from that point on... sin entered the earth and seperated us from god...

From then on any evil that exists, we as sinners must take responcibilty. Yes good people get hurt and bad things happen to good people all the time but that doesn't mean god doesn't exist.. you see without god, there is no good or evil... there is no absolute rights or wrongs.. we are all part of the animal kingdom and we can kill rape steal do what ever we like... That of course is not the case.. we have evil but there is a consequense for evil.....

Moving on, yes there is a separation between us and God... but 2000 years ago, he sent his only son (yes Jesus) so that he can breidge the gap and we can know god more intimately..

Yes life sux for some reason but the fact that you acknowlegdethere is evil.. then you must acknowledge there is good.. without god there is no good.

I know this won't help or make sence and I'm sure there will be a barage of people saying that what I say is crap.. but that's what I beleive..

Sure. And in response to the original question, why not Frodo brought three.

And when I quote stuff, I read it to make sure I'm not taking it out of context. I can't find the bit I was reading, but it's frequently used.

But you said you havn't read the bible??? i could be wrong.

read my txt above, i've added stuff

Another one that talks of the flood


http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=77

http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=36

Lets not make this a personal issue. it is just a fun conversation that is quite informative

I have long stated that I don't argue that god doesn't exist. You can't argue that! However the bible can certainly not be used as legitimate proof of much.

And Dustow, once again your fundie idiocy gets in the way of logic. You CAN believe in god and believe in evolution. You can believe in god, and that god created the earth, literally, and still believe in evolution. If you had actually read up on what you're trying to argue about you'd know this.

Evolution and the big band are taught in schools because they're the accepted scientific theories. If the big bang was suddenly disproved, then you can bet they wouldn't stop teaching evolution.

Thanks mate.. but evolution has been disproven many many time.... but the scientist just come up with an alternative theories ie: the horse theory, the archeological time line+ many many more, I'll have to look up if you want more.

You speak of logic but how logical is the bigbang theory.. it is:

In the begining there was nothing... From nothing started somthing.. this something (no bigger than a full stop on a page)created enough energy to explode into the univers as we know it... Now the earth cooled over millions of years then it rained for a million more, from the rain water interacting with the rocky earth ceated the "organic soup" from that we eventually came about ... by accident. Now that is the offial big bang theory.. look it up. Now I can't see logic in that.. But you are entitled to believe what you want as do I... Thanks anyway man

Not true, not all evolutionist's believe that we evolved from nothing, how life started is still unknown, people have only come up with theories, one of them being an organic 'soup' another one being that we were seeded by an asteroid from another planet. However evolution doesn't deal with the original of life, only what happened after.

But that's what they teach in the schools... The organic soup theory is being taut as fact even with many flaws...... From what I know, there is only 2 theories, Creation and the big bang.. Creation-god created the universe, Bigbang- The organic soup.. it's either one or the other, you can't be an evolutionist and believe in the creation theory.

did you even read what you type?
Firstly you left out insects, secondly heard of indigenous animals ? travelled to australia did he to get the marsupials? and then travelled back to drop them off... no, theres no biblical claim for that is there.

A) they haven't found jack shit. they thought they did made a doco, but it was completely inconclusive. all they found were rivets & nails, i'm sorry but how could you possibly deduce dimensions from a handful of rivets and nails?

B) red sea thats not proof, almost every army of that era travelled by sea and suffered losses at sea.

C) Jesus will return soon. SOON, 2000 years is well past soon by any standard. time proves the bible lies.

Accually they found wood fragments of the ark also that was consistent with the biblical story....  Yes they would have travelled by sea.... but not on a Chariot!!!! There are no other evidence that would suggest any other theory other than the one told in the bible... If they were carried by a ship across the sea, then they would have found evidence of the ship.... Also they discovered the chariots were from the dinisty of Ramisis.... Moses, brother and the ruling Phero of the time. As said above, Without contradictory evidence one must accept the POSSIBILTY that it happended as it is told.

I forgot insects... insects  do not have lungs to breath, they breath through their skin... they would have been comfortable enough ontop of water until the water subsided... ever been to a pond or creek... bugs every where... when you go fly fishing, you imitate a bug on water.

no proof?
Noahs ark is not humanly possible to  maintain all the livestock, let alone collect every animal. theres nothing to suggest a boat that large was ever built outside of the bible.
It's also impossible for our weather to 'produce' rain its a constant cycle, while flooding obviously can occur its always localised, and the oceans CANNOT rise meters upon meters due to rain.

Mary- thats makes an gereat TUI ad.

Telescopes have revealed other planets / systems forming. theres nothing rational to suggest ours didn't form exactly the same way.

google > flat earth myth <, nobody sane ever believed the earth was flat.

Read the bible my freind... noah didn't take 2 of every animal.. he took 2 of every kind of animal.. ie: male and femal of dog, cat, retile etc... not 2 x lion, cheetah wolf dingo etc!!  One must also remember that 4000 years ago and about 2000 after creation, there wasn't the variety of animals/crossbreeding as in today, so there acually wouldn't have been that many... still alot but not as many as you would think.

In relation to the boat size, they believe they have found the ark on or in the vasinty of Mt ararat. They have found rivets, nails etc and the dimensions are exactly as in the bible.

And to give you another eg of a unbelieveable story in the bible being true... no one in their right mind could believe that the red sea could have parted so that the Million or so jews could cross it with the egyptions chasing...... Well they have discovered extensive eg's of chariets, human remains, horse remains and other artifacts in the middle of the red sea where the crossing occured..... Now we've shown/proved it did happen now you prove it didn't!!!

i like the fact that we can right off evolution because its ridiculous to evolve from single cell organisms, and offensive to think we evolved from monkeys, but story involving a talking snake an apple and a spare rib is perfectly rational and acceptable.

In fact evolutionist's believe that we evolved from nothing.. ie the big bang started everything but originated from nothing.. The earth cooled after millions of years... it rained for another million and out of the rain that hit the rocks formed what they call the "soup" and out of the soup spawned cells (from water and rock) and out of that here we are... eventually...  Ithink it's much easier on the human brain to believe that someone made the earth... well that's what I think.