[video]M7QSkI6My1g[/video]

I can't tell the difference between Jack White and the chick's voice. :chuckle:

There's nothing random about the question, the issue of "free will" is closely related to theology and philosophy, and thus religion and religious belief.

How can it "not be a concern"? Is it not a concern to you because you are aware that it can not be reconciled with your worldview so you decide to shrug it off and ignore it? I think it's incredibly important whether someone  believes in their own free will or not - and I'm not asking you if you "feel" like you have free will, I am asking you if you think humans, and yourself, have free will and if so - how?

quick question cobra: do you believe in free will? That is, do you believe you have the ability to make conscious decisions, and consciously act by your own will?

This is going to back to a topic I was discussing a few weeks back, but never got to back to you about...

Oh man, now I remember why I explicitly try to avoid coming to this forum..

What do you think of this article, Thafleastyler?

...and also, this interpretation of Genesis/the Garden of Eden parable in Christian mysticism:

stories designed to teach a particular but unconventional metaphysical view of reality indirectly, by using analogy

    * One familiar example - the Garden of Eden story of Adam and Eve being cast out in shame - has lost its metaphorical meaning over time; the psychological/metaphysical consequences of shame when the innocent creative ego (feminine aspect) is tempted to reach for power and subsequently enters the belief in duality (eating of the tree of good and evil) because reason (masculine aspect of mind) has yet to waken. In the story, return to the Garden and Tree of Eternal Aliveness (divine reality) is only possible through purification of mind (the gate is protected by the lone innocent cherubim/Self wielding a flaming sword.) Compare this to the symbols of fire, masculine/feminine unity, time, fearlessness, and ego transcendence found in images of "Shiva the Destroyer" (Hindu) where the transformational process is described by visual metaphors. Christ is well-known for his use of parables, consistently using them to teach compassion and inclusion, while many contain hidden metaphorical content for "those who have ears to hear."

In one of the most enigmatic stories from the Gospel of Thomas, he describes the Kingdom of Heaven as like an old woman returning home after a long journey, carrying all she values - a bag full of grain - on her back. A tear allows the grain to escape during the journey and she arrives home to discover it empty. Very Buddhist in tone, each word of the story has significance in describing the return path to the divine through a gradual emptying of earthbound value concepts and subtle internal conflicts. The use of the term, old woman, is a common metaphor related to the mind's incapacity to create, when controlled by embedded defensive ego values.

- from the wikipedia page on 'mysticism'

Just curious..
(and shamelessly trying to change the topic to something more interesting than the usual evolution debate)

Oh man, now I remember why I explicitly try to avoid coming to this forum..

What do you think of this article, Thafleastyler?

...and also, the interpretation of Genesis/the Garden of Eden parable in Christian mysticism:

stories designed to teach a particular but unconventional metaphysical view of reality indirectly, by using analogy

    * One familiar example - the Garden of Eden story of Adam and Eve being cast out in shame - has lost its metaphorical meaning over time; the psychological/metaphysical consequences of shame when the innocent creative ego (feminine aspect) is tempted to reach for power and subsequently enters the belief in duality (eating of the tree of good and evil) because reason (masculine aspect of mind) has yet to waken. In the story, return to the Garden and Tree of Eternal Aliveness (divine reality) is only possible through purification of mind (the gate is protected by the lone innocent cherubim/Self wielding a flaming sword.) Compare this to the symbols of fire, masculine/feminine unity, time, fearlessness, and ego transcendence found in images of "Shiva the Destroyer" (Hindu) where the transformational process is described by visual metaphors. Christ is well-known for his use of parables, consistently using them to teach compassion and inclusion, while many contain hidden metaphorical content for "those who have ears to hear."

In one of the most enigmatic stories from the Gospel of Thomas, he describes the Kingdom of Heaven as like an old woman returning home after a long journey, carrying all she values - a bag full of grain - on her back. A tear allows the grain to escape during the journey and she arrives home to discover it empty. Very Buddhist in tone, each word of the story has significance in describing the return path to the divine through a gradual emptying of earthbound value concepts and subtle internal conflicts. The use of the term, old woman, is a common metaphor related to the mind's incapacity to create, when controlled by embedded defensive ego values.

- from the wikipedia page on 'mysticism'

You said it yourself Dr_Woohoo - there can be no meaningful dialogue between you and me. As unfortunate as that may be. For I have decided to relentlessly seek truth and the highest wisdom, and you have decided that you are uninterested in truth altogether. So what can there be to discuss...?

You mean when the Christians irrational war on evolution is over and we all have no choice but to believe that our one true source of happiness is his love, and our lord, Jesus Christ?

This is a ridiculous generalization. It is a very small minority of Christian denominations that try to refute evolution. It's only because the media capitalizes on these situations and tries to turn it into some huge drama that we hear about it more often than what we would otherwise.

Atheistic materialists are just as dogmatic and tedious as these creationist-type people though.

.....

I didn't put my own meaning into the quote, you're just not understanding it or purposefully trying not to... (like many other things, apparently..)  I'm not sure which. Did you read any of the other quotes?

Like many of the great scientists throughout history, Einstein lamented those like you who are content to live with their own self-created subjective meanings rather than seeking ultimate truth in all things.

If you believe there is no such thing as truth, and therefore everything is inherently meaningless, how can you then go on to say that you perceive beauty in a sunset - how can beauty have any kind of meaning in your worldview? It's just a word that means nothing and is of no inherent value whatsoever ... Yet, coincidentally, almost everyone perceives beauty in nature to some extent. You then go on to say that you appreciate the scientific understanding behind a sunset - so I am assuming therefore that you also appreciate the order and rationality of the natural laws that govern the sun and the Earth's precise movements in relation to the sun? But I would ask of you, how can you appreciate the rationality in nature if you believe there is no ultimate principle of logic or rationality behind any of it?  How can nature be subject to rational laws if it is, as you say, ultimately random and meaningless? That makes no sense. Or what about gravity, or the movement of the planets in the solar system? These are all rational, natural laws that have distinct purpose...

All of these scientific geniuses of the ages, from Galileo and Kepler to Einstein were motivated by their deep convictions that the Universe is subject to rational and logical laws that could be understood through human reason, because of the very fact that they believed God is the supremely rational creator (or) governance behind it all.  They had to have faith in their convictions that nature was both meaningful and rational, were they to have any success whatsoever in unraveling it's mysteries through scientific observation and experiment.

Do you think these scientists would have had as much success as they did if they believed, as you do, that the universe and the entirety of existence is irrational, absurd and meaningless?  If that had been the case - why should they have bothered trying to understand anything at all? It would have been a pointless exercise in futility and thus we wouldn't have any of the magnificent scientific theories we have today.

I find your worldview to be ridiculous and absurd - I don't mean that to insult you at all, I'm just saying that I feel you are incredibly misguided. Everything you say is foolish and contradictory. But I'll reply at length tomorrow as there is a lot more I would like to say on this...

........

I didn't put my own meaning into the quote, you're just not understanding it or purposefully trying not to... (like many other things, apparently..)  I'm not sure which. Did you read any of the other quotes?

Like many of the great scientists throughout history, Einstein lamented those like you who are content to live with their own self-created subjective meanings rather than seeking ultimate truth in all things.

If you believe there is no such thing as truth, and therefore everything is inherently meaningless, how can you then go on to say that you perceive beauty in a sunset - how can beauty have any kind of meaning in your worldview? It's just a word that means nothing and is of no inherent value whatsoever ... Yet, coincidentally, almost everyone perceives beauty in nature to some extent. You then go on to say that you appreciate the scientific understanding behind a sunset - so I am assuming therefore that you also appreciate the rationality of the natural laws that govern the sun and it's precise movements? But I would ask of you, how can you appreciate the rationality in nature if you believe there is no ultimate principle of logic or rationality behind any of it?  How can nature be subject to rational laws if it is, as you say, ultimately random and meaningless? It makes no sense.

Everything you say is foolish and contradictory. But I'll reply at length tomorrow as there is a lot more I would like to say on this...

I'm surprised that neither Dr_Woohoo or Uppityduck have had anything to say or any thoughts in response to my post on the previous page.

Oh wait, no I'm not...

Ah and just for the hell of it, here are some more quotes from Einstein; one of the greatest scientists that has lived in recent history (and arguably one of the greatest of all time). One thing I think many people don't realize about Einstein is that he was not just an incredible scientist of great intellect, but was also a great philosopher and a deeply spiritual man.

Even though I don't agree with all of the views he held, I love much of his writings because he had some really wise and meaningful things to say - including many of his criticisms of organized religion. Just curious as to what you lot think of some of his thoughts on life, science and religion:

(no I didn't just drop in to spam a bunch of quotes, there are some posts I would like to respond to; but I just wanted to share this in the mean time..)

"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a Holy curiosity."

"What is the meaning of human life, or of organic life altogether? To answer this question at all implies a religion. Is there any sense then, you ask, in putting it? I answer, the man who regards his own life and that of his fellow creatures as meaningless is not merely unfortunate but almost disqualified for life."

"If one purges the Judaism of the Prophets and Christianity as Jesus Christ taught it of all subsequent additions, especially those of the priests, one is left with a teaching which is capable of curing all the social ills of humanity.
It is the duty of every man of good will to strive steadfastly to make this teaching of pure humanity a living force, so far as he can."

"As a child, I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene.

Jesus is too colossal for the pen of phrasemongers, however artful. No man can dispose of Christianity with a bon mot. No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life."

"All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man's life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards freedom."

"One has a feeling that one has a kind of home in this timeless community of human beings that strive for truth. … I have always believed that Jesus meant by the Kingdom of God the small group scattered all through time of intellectually and ethically valuable people."

"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science. Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder, no longer marvel, is as good as dead, and his eyes are dimmed.  To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness."

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views.  Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible concatenations, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent I am, in point of fact, religious."

"I maintain that the cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific research. Only those who realize the immense efforts and, above all, the devotion without which pioneer work in theoretical science cannot be achieved are able to grasp the strength of the emotion out of which alone such work, remote as it is from the immediate realities of life, can issue.

"What a deep conviction of the rationality of the universe and what a yearning to understand, were it but a feeble reflection of the mind revealed in this world, Kepler and Newton must have had to enable them to spend years of solitary labor in disentangling the principles of celestial mechanics! Those whose acquaintance with scientific research is derived chiefly from its practical results easily develop a completely false notion of the mentality of the men who, surrounded by a skeptical world, have shown the way to kindred spirits scattered wide through the world and through the centuries."

"Only one who has devoted his life to similar ends can have a vivid realization of what has inspired these men and given them the strength to remain true to their purpose in spite of countless failures. It is cosmic religious feeling that gives a man such strength."

"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilisation should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."

"I have never looked upon ease and happiness as ends in themselves -- this critical basis I call the ideal of a pigsty. The ideals that have lighted my way, and time after time have given me new courage to face life cheerfully, have been Kindness, Beauty, and Truth. Without the sense of kinship with men of like mind, without the occupation with the objective world, the eternally unattainable in the field of art and scientific endeavors, life would have seemed empty to me. The trite objects of human efforts -- possessions, outward success, luxury -- have always seemed to me contemptible."

"Only a life lived for others is a life worth living."

"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding."

"The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker."

"The life of the individual has meaning only insofar as it aids in making the life of every living thing nobler and more beautiful. Life is sacred, that is to say, it is the supreme value, to which all other values are subordinate."

edit: noob typos.