Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Zarathrustra]

Have a read up of existential wittings. That's what it's all about. Most people wait till they are about 50 though.

Anybody read up on the zimzum stuff?

The Existentialists are great.  I'm a big fan of Sartre, Dostoyevsky, etc; Hermann Hesse most of all.  (I'm not 50 yet )

But, by their very nature they pose more questions than can ever be answered, and never offer anything tangible.

Why are we here?   Thats a question that has led many a man down a dark path - the path to god. :disappoin

Why does there need to be a reason?

[TofuEater]

can religion ?

I don't know, but are you conceding that religion may have answers to questions that science doesn't?

[Tiwaking!]

Ok, i'll take that - tell.

Hehehe. What I meant is: Science gives you answers before you die. Religion gives you the answers after you die. Which one of these is a fair trade?

The Existentialists are great.  I'm a big fan of Sartre, Dostoyevsky, etc; Hermann Hesse most of all.  (I'm not 50 yet )

But, by their very nature they pose more questions than can ever be answered, and never offer anything tangible.

Why are we here?   Thats a question that has led many a man down a dark path - the path to god. :disappoin

Why does there need to be a reason?

I despise existentialists and consider their ideas idiocy. Its a sad attempt to grasp universal truth by using chopsticks. You damage what you touch and anything you can retrieve from it is so desecrated that its not even worth having.

On the more positive side: Situationists are awesome. Its a shame they're mostly gone now.

Simon_NZ: Read "Breaking the Spell"

[Simon_NZ]

not unless you tell me what it's about

[Tiwaking!]

not unless you tell me what it's about

Breaking the Spell of religion on people. Comparing it to a type of parasite which infects ants(the luke worm) and compels it to actions totally contrary to its normal behaviour

[Simon_NZ]

nice:D

[krasher]

Breaking the Spell of religion on people. Comparing it to a type of parasite which infects ants(the luke worm) and compels it to actions totally contrary to its normal behaviour

Quite the evangelical aren't you. I was wondering why you were so dogmatic and narrow minded.

[Tiwaking!]

Quite the evangelical aren't you. I was wondering why you were so dogmatic and narrow minded.

Obviously you missed me defending Christianity for two pages

But that was two dozen pages ago. All I care about is getting to the real issues here. When people start abusing religious people for being religious that is an unacceptable ad-hominem status.

When relgious people act like idiots because they are religious, well. Thats a whole different story. In any case: Simon_NZ stated that he read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. Another good book for Atheistic ideas is "The Spell Breaker"

To show respect for religions and people of religious faith BOTH must be able to challenge one another so that they can both come to an informed decision about their religions and themselves. As soon as one side forces its opinion on another: Thats Theocracy in-action

Atheistic inaction causes Theocracy in-action

[Black Heart]

I don't know, but are you conceding that religion may have answers to questions that science doesn't?

lol yes i am. in the same respect that a magic 8 ball can provide answers to questions on quantum physics.

[DDM]

"Mum, why did god make little timmy die"
"Because he's a cunt, son"



God killed that poor child, how can you support that?!

[Tiwaking!]

"Mum, why did god make little timmy die"
"Because he's a cunt, son"

God killed that poor child, how can you support that?!

Stan : "Why would God let Kenny die, Chef? Why? Kenny's my friend. Why can't God take someone else's friend?"

Chef : "Stan, sometimes God takes those closest to us, because it makes him feel better about himself. He is a very vengeful God, Stan. He's all pissed off about something we did thousands of years ago. He just can't get over it, so he doesn't care who he takes. Children, puppies, it don't matter to him, so long as it makes us sad. Do you understand?"

Stan : "But then, why does God give us anything to start with?"

Chef : "Well, look at it this way: if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away. If you never give it a lollipop to begin with, then you would have nothin' to cry about. That's like God, who gives us life and love and help just so that he can tear it all away and make us cry, so he can drink the sweet milk of our tears. You see, it's our tears, Stan, that give God his great power."

Stan : "I think I understand."

[DEATH0WL]

Apparently If you believe in Evolution then that will get rid of any need for a reason to life.

Your here to eat, drink, sleep, party, have sex, party some more, sleep some more then realise your GF got preggies, end up raising the child, spend the next few years in a retirement home, then die.

Your children will then have some tiny change about them which will make them better than the rest and that will kill off the weak.

And then a improved race of "humans" is created.

No need for a meaning to life if you believe in evolution you see?

[cobra]

Hehehe. What I meant is: Science gives you answers before you die. Religion gives you the answers after you die. Which one of these is a fair trade?

I despise existentialists and consider their ideas idiocy. Its a sad attempt to grasp universal truth by using chopsticks. You damage what you touch and anything you can retrieve from it is so desecrated that its not even worth having.

wow - i am going to tackle this in two halves (after a lot of beer)

To start with - science gives you answers, even the religous people will have to admit that science has brought us many positive things, religion brings you a bandage to put over thought

What is wrong with the existentialists? Your statement, although poetic, is barely an augment against it. The fact that there is no higher meaning to life and that is a positive thing and the fact that we control our own lives and should make choices that would please us if we were watching a rerun of our lives are two important things i have learned from existentialism - where does it cause a problem with your world view?

[Steady]

I find I'm always right in all things. Maybe I'm God.

Woot end thread I win.

[Tiwaking!]

Apparently If you believe in Evolution then that will get rid of any need for a reason to life.

Your here to eat, drink, sleep, party, have sex, party some more, sleep some more then realise your GF got preggies, end up raising the child, spend the next few years in a retirement home, then die.

Your children will then have some tiny change about them which will make them better than the rest and that will kill off the weak.

And then a improved race of "humans" is created.

No need for a meaning to life if you believe in evolution you see?

Actually what you've done is spread your deformed gene's onto a child who is most likely going to continue the cycle of knocking up their girlfriends. Your children arent going to be better than the rest and kill off the weak, they ARE the weakest link!

Unfortunately Eugenic's is globally disallowed so your children are free to thrive in an environment which promotes life and freedom of every individual as paramount. Survival of the 'fittest' is replaced with 'Everyone survives!'

p.s Im sure as hell Ghandi didnt support Eugenics.

To start with - science gives you answers, even the religous people will have to admit that science has brought us many positive things, religion brings you a bandage to put over thought

What is wrong with the existentialists? Your statement, although poetic, is barely an augment against it. The fact that there is no higher meaning to life and that is a positive thing and the fact that we control our own lives and should make choices that would please us if we were watching a rerun of our lives are two important things i have learned from existentialism - where does it cause a problem with your world view?

Hmm. I worded that wrong. What I meant was "I hate existential-ISM". Saying "What is wrong with Existentialists?" Well there are a few things(to my knowledge).

"If all events are interconnected then not only is there not free will, there are no other dimensions"

Yes thats right. You heard me. I said no dimensions. Why? Because if our strand in the infinity of cosmic order represents the direction of universal events.....then its the most important strand and therefore the only one. Going back and connecting the dot's doesnt help anything, its a sad attempt to shape current reality to past events, ignoring the totality of human behaviour.

For example: As a kid a dog bites you. You are afraid of dogs. Another kid is bitten by a dog, but ends up liking dogs. Existentialist conclusion is: One child is afraid of dogs because they were bitten, the other likes dogs regardless of being bitten.

.....hmm. I just realized I dont really know existentialism as much as I thought I did. That *is* the theory of interconnectedness right? I think its time for some study.

[Tiwaking!]

.....hmm. I just realized I dont really know existentialism as much as I thought I did. That *is* the theory of interconnectedness right? I think its time for some study.

someone who believes fundamentally only in existence, and seeks to find meaning in his or her life solely by embracing existence, is an existentialist.

Emphasizing action, freedom, and decision as fundamental, existentialists oppose themselves to rationalism and positivism.

Existentialism asserts that people actually make decisions based on what has meaning to them rather than what is rational.

Ahh yes. Existentialism is indeed what I thought it was. Its a hodge-podge of absurdism, objectivism and many other modern atheistic ideaologies, or did they spill forth from Existentialism? What would an Existentialist say about that comment?

By Existentialism opposing BOTH rationalism and positivism, they also by-proxy oppose NOT-YOU-ism. The interconnectedness of Human activity to unconsciously give meaning to life actually means that humans have no control OVER life. Pre-determinism by a higher power(which does not exist) is a given fact. What happens when there is no higher-power to pre-determine actions?

Either: a) ALL actions are pre-determined from the outset or b) No actions are predetermined by the outset

Human activity influences the pre-determined status of existence? WHAT-EVER!

The magnitude of that kind of Existentialist bullshit statement is so ridiculously huge. In a universe which no true answers have been obtained about the fundamental building blocks of anything, Existentialist bullshit dogma turns up to save the day with its idea that WE can influence the whole entire universe by our actions?

p.s This rant was not directed AT anyone

[Zarathrustra]

The assumption of 'Free Will' is one of the things that irk's me with a lot of the Existential writers.

Human activity = Brain chemistry = Physics = set action/reaction laws.

Existentialism itself (I'm likely a bit wrong) was a term coined by Sartre.  From my interpretation it covers the whole 'philosophy of existence' be it nihilistic or (can't think of word).

[Tiwaking!]

The assumption of 'Free Will' is one of the things that irk's me with a lot of the Existential writers.

Human activity = Brain chemistry = Physics = set action/reaction laws.

The lack of a higher moderating power means that Existentialism has only two recourses: Predeterminism or Non-Predeterminism(which is actually Predeterminism). The same argument could be levelled at ANY philosophy but with one big difference in regard to Existentialism:

There is no such thing as Free Will

To assume there is, even with full knowledge of bio-chemistry and neurology, AND to be an Existentialist? You'd have to be seriously deluded. Human interaction causes the universe? Could Humans get anymore arrogant?

[Zarathrustra]

There is no such thing as Free Will

To me it seems obvious, but it seems to be the opposite is obvious to most people - I thinks it's just another thing people are to scared to realise, just like the fact there is no reason for existence.

[Zarathrustra]

There is no such thing as Free Will

To me it seems obvious, but it seems to be the opposite is obvious to most people - I thinks it's just another thing people are to scared to realise, just like the fact there is no reason for existence.

[Zarathrustra]

There is no such thing as Free Will

To me it seems obvious, but it seems to be the opposite is obvious to most people - I thinks it's just another thing people are to scared too realise, just like the fact there is no reason for existence.

[Tiwaking!]

I thinks it's just another thing people are to scared to realise, just like the fact there is no reason for existence.

Actually I have one reason for you to exist

God Debris the PDF book.

Cant think of anything else though. Its all down-hill after you read it

[TuataraDude]

Actually I have one reason for you to exist

God Debris the PDF book.

Cant think of anything else though. Its all down-hill after you read it

Same guy who writes the Dilbert cartoons. I downloaded it quite some time ago but never got around to reading it. Is it worth my effort?

[Zarathrustra]

"The target audience for God’s Debris is people who enjoy having their brains spun around inside their skulls."

So a must read. Cheers

[Tiwaking!]

Same guy who writes the Dilbert cartoons. I downloaded it quite some time ago but never got around to reading it. Is it worth my effort?

Yes. But it was abit too....'dumb' for me.

So a must read. Cheers

Its very amusing mind