Topic: Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

Offline Bell

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Reply #2275 Posted: April 26, 2007, 09:54:22 am

Offline Black Heart

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Quote from: Spacemonkey;402044
Not true, there are many religions which don't believe in God or a god.

The only requirement of a religion is a set of beliefs, it is not necessary to believe in a supreme deity.


many is more than a few, so can you name 3 ?

Reply #2276 Posted: April 26, 2007, 10:12:38 am

Offline ThaFleastyler

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Quote from: Bell;402066
No they are the same thing man has created god in his mind to help keep him from going crazy asking Why they exist, how they got there in the first place and what happens when they die.
Saying oh some super being thing made us and when we die we get to go hang with him was a simple solution especially in times when magic was believed and not much about the world/universe was known.

And as it turned out also a great opportunity  to get people do things you want them to.
Brilliant scheme really.

Your mindless contribution to this thread does not deserve a thoughtful answer.
I would neg rep you, but unfortunately I can't.

Reply #2277 Posted: April 26, 2007, 10:21:23 am

Offline Bell

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I reread your post and get what you are saying i was too quick to post sorry.

But I will leave you with a some quotes.

Quote from:  Bertrand Russell
If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

Quote from: Richard Dawkins
The reason organized religion merits outright hostility is that, unlike belief in Russell's teapot, religion is powerful, influential, tax-exempt and systematically passed on to children too young to defend themselves. Children are not compelled to spend their formative years memorizing loony books about teapots. Government-subsidized schools don't exclude children whose parents prefer the wrong shape of teapot. Teapot-believers don't stone teapot-unbelievers, teapot-apostates, teapot-heretics and teapot-blasphemers to death. Mothers don't warn their sons off marrying teapot-shiksas whose parents believe in three teapots rather than one. People who put the milk in first don't kneecap those who put the tea in first.

Reply #2278 Posted: April 26, 2007, 11:58:32 am

Offline frog.

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Quote from: Tiwaking!;402039

To say that Core beliefs have remained the same while their method's have changed is abit .....hypocritical, at BEST. If I said "Religions have changed to reflect more relevant times", what exactly does that sound like to you?

Buddhism in Japan is a good example. Given the choice between being slaughtered or acknowledging the native Shinto religion as paramount, the monks were quick to agree to certain concessions(various Bodhsativas and the like). Out of this sprang Zen Buddhism which is somewhat closer to Orthodox Buddhism, but on a much more personal and individual basis.

What was the point of all this discussion? To remain ALIVE the Church will sacrifice anything for its continued survival, INCLUDING that of what you would call its 'Core Beliefs'. If half the world decided(and probably will one day) to reject the Trinity of the Godhead, does that mean its no-longer a 'core belief'? What about all the ideas and ideals that surround this doctrine? Baptising your children is to stop them from going to hell, but quite alot of Churches do not practise batptising. Does that mean Baptising is not a core belief? Wasnt Jesus an advocate of baptisment(Yeah yeah, baptise in fire and spirit blah blah)

There are no more European religious wars because Atheists ultimately won. Apathy kills religion faster than Chuck Norris and one hundred ninjas.


agreed, agreed.

my view
ive asked myself what is the purpose of the church.

to tell us that there is evil, to be baptized, to bring world peace, to be one with God?

what you call the churchs "Core beliefs" being the core is not how i view the core of the church. i view the core as its purpose.

why is it here and why people think they need it.

we know there is evil, to be dunked in water only gets you wet, if you want world peace stay in your room, to be one with god? just look within but thats easier said then done.

that to me is the core. for two thousand years its had a purpose and that puprose aint going to change. that purpose is? i've no fucking idea, sorry for the anticlimax. but, but it is not here to save my soul and make me happy. my soul is fine where it is and happiness is overrated.

Reply #2279 Posted: April 26, 2007, 12:40:23 pm
pancakesrreal | Everyone of us is high but you

Offline Black Heart

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Reply #2280 Posted: April 26, 2007, 01:12:39 pm

Offline cobra

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The reason i am attacking christianity in this thread is that christianity has the worst track record when it comes to science - Galileo anyone - Stem cell research......

Quote from: ThaFleastyler;402003
If thats true, why am I still as strong a believer in God as I was at the start?
And don't say its because I'm an IHC candidate.



There are none so blind as those who will not see (is that a bible quote?)

I am surprised that you say I've attacked god - There is no god for me to attack - Be like me punching the air to keep away ghosts

Reply #2281 Posted: April 26, 2007, 01:13:11 pm

Offline ThaFleastyler

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Quote from: cobra;402282
The reason i am attacking christianity in this thread is that christianity has the worst track record when it comes to science - Galileo anyone - Stem cell research......

Again, these are issues for which you can't write off ALL religion, but only the specifics churches or religions who promote a stance that is against that issue. For myself, I don't know enough about stem cell research to give a great opinion, but what I do know sounds like it could be highly beneficial to humankind. For my church, I think we (as a church) take more of a stance of acceptance of these issues - we tend not to take part in political marchs or protests, and while we all know that something is wrong (for example, prostitution) we also know that it is more important to love people and accept people, without judging people. The church is meant to be a welcoming and loving place - if we were to go out and protest against prostitution, thats a whole group of people who think the church is NOT a welcoming place.

The point I'm trying to make is that Christianity is not against science, but some people within the Christian faith believe that some of these scientific practices and beliefs are anti-Bible, thus anti-God, so they stand against them - not usually to block them, but to be heard, to get fair time, to share some of the spotlight WITH science, not instead of science. Of course there are examples where that is not the case, but those are exceptions, rather than the rule. Church people believe that they have "the answer" (for want of a better term) and they want to offer it as an alternative.
Quote from: cobra;402282
There are none so blind as those who will not see (is that a bible quote?)

The Bible also says "The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness does not understand it." (John 1:3) Another metaphor :D

Reply #2282 Posted: April 26, 2007, 01:28:56 pm

Offline cobra

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;402304

not usually to block them, but to be heard, to get fair time, to share some of the spotlight WITH science, not instead of science.


The churches (in the USA) pushing for Intelligent design to be taught along side evolution are antiscience - Pushing for this nonsense to be taught with equal weight as evolution is antiscience - same goes for the big bang, the earth is round, the earth is not the centre of the universe, there are dinosaurs and so on

To have christian views taught along side science makes me ill - Scientific theory is based on facts and has thousands of people critically analyzing it - christian "theory" seems to be based on a two thousand year old book that has be translated and rewritten and even chrisitians will say that the only bits to be taken as literal truth are the parts they need to oppress opposing view points

Reply #2283 Posted: April 26, 2007, 01:52:49 pm

Offline ThaFleastyler

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Quote from: cobra;402328
To have christian views taught along side science ...
... is fair in America, since the majority of the population subscribe to the Christian viewpoint.

The only reason science wouldn't want to make room for the teaching you're against is because they are scared of being proven wrong. And aside from that, we're talking about adopting Intelligent Design, not Creationism - I believe (and have always believed) that Intelligent Design leaves enough room to accomodate much of the scientific knowledge mankind has uncovered (ie evolution, in one form or another, and dinosaurs, etc etc).

Reply #2284 Posted: April 26, 2007, 02:02:39 pm

Offline KiLL3r

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so i was eating lunch in cathedral square today, enjoying the peaceful murmer of people at the stalls then suddenly from behind me i hear some bum yelling out bible versus at the top of his voice! Talk about ruining a good day.

also


someones such a good christian they even censor their rep :laff:

"you are so full of s**t killer"

Reply #2285 Posted: April 26, 2007, 02:12:02 pm


Offline cobra

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;402342
... is fair in America, since the majority of the population subscribe to the Christian viewpoint.

The only reason science wouldn't want to make room for the teaching you're against is because they are scared of being proven wrong. And aside from that, we're talking about adopting Intelligent Design, not Creationism - I believe (and have always believed) that Intelligent Design leaves enough room to accomodate much of the scientific knowledge mankind has uncovered (ie evolution, in one form or another, and dinosaurs, etc etc).


I dont care if people are taught it - i do care if they are taught it in science classes

You cant say "The only reason science wouldn't want to make room for the teaching you're against is because they are scared of being proven wrong"
one. scientists wouldn't want people taught that electricity is gremlins running along wires - that isn't because it might shake up science - it is because it would be a waste of time
two. You are projecting the christian view point on to science - Scientists are not scared of being proved wrong - All science is about trying to prove the old view point wrong - but i think the key is scientists need proof - not a gut feeling

Intelligent Design does not leave room for evolution

Creationism is accepting more reality into its view point - i am finding people that ignore the bibles description and say that god made the big bang then left us alone - all they need to do is remove god and they are onto a winner

Reply #2286 Posted: April 26, 2007, 02:21:57 pm

Offline ThaFleastyler

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Quote from: cobra;402371
I dont care if people are taught it - i do care if they are taught it in science classes

You cant say "The only reason science wouldn't want to make room for the teaching you're against is because they are scared of being proven wrong"
one. scientists wouldn't want people taught that electricity is gremlins running along wires - that isn't because it might shake up science - it is because it would be a waste of time
two. You are projecting the christian view point on to science - Scientists are not scared of being proved wrong - All science is about trying to prove the old view point wrong - but i think the key is scientists need proof - not a gut feeling

Intelligent Design does not leave room for evolution

Creationism is accepting more reality into its view point - i am finding people that ignore the bibles description and say that god made the big bang then left us alone - all they need to do is remove god and they are onto a winner

It saddens me that you are so intolerant of others' beliefs. If you took a step back, you would see that the opinion you are promoting, and particularly the way you are promoting it, is as extreme as the "fundies" who want everyone to sign up to their churches and adopt their exact viewpoints. Also, saying that teaching I.D. in science classes makes you ill is a little over-dramatic, don't you think?

It is one thing for you to not believe in God, thats your choice and best of luck to you. But the fact of the matter is that you are among the minority, since (as stated) 5/6ths of the population of earth believe in a "God" or "higher power" in one form or another.

On a related tangent, would I win if I invoke Godwins law here?! :D

Quote from: KiLL3r
someones such a good christian they even censor their rep

"you are so full of s**t killer"

Wasn't me. I thought your comic was funny :D

Reply #2287 Posted: April 26, 2007, 02:41:54 pm

Offline ThaFleastyler

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Quote from: cobra;402371
I dont care if people are taught it - i do care if they are taught it in science classes

Out of curiosity, where would you teach it then? Its a scientific theory, rivalling the mainstream theory of earths creation. Science seems like the logical, if not blatantly punch-you-on-the-nose obvious, place to teach it.

What bothers you so much about students being taught, in a scientific way, that its also a commonly accepted theory that God may have created the earth?

Reply #2288 Posted: April 26, 2007, 02:44:46 pm

Offline KiLL3r

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;402395


Wasn't me. I thought your comic was funny :D


oh yea i got links for the entire series if anyone wants em, the one where he get into a fight with god because he rooted mary is a goodie :D

Reply #2289 Posted: April 26, 2007, 03:09:59 pm


Offline cobra

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;402398
Out of curiosity, where would you teach it then? Its a scientific theory, rivalling the mainstream theory of earths creation. Science seems like the logical, if not blatantly punch-you-on-the-nose obvious, place to teach it.

What bothers you so much about students being taught, in a scientific way, that its also a commonly accepted theory that God may have created the earth?


well i wouldn't have it taught at all because it is wrong -  i know you should type in caps but

IT IS NOT A SCIENTIFIC THEORY

where is the science? it is creationism being marketed in the guise of a theory - science needs some evidence and if there is one thing you christians don't have it's evidence

Would you accept that if creationism should be taught in science classes then evolution should be taught at churches?

There are thousands of crazy theorys which rival mainstream scientific thought - but it would be wrong to teach students these - why confuse kids with lies - there is no evidence that we were designed, quite the opposite (can't be bothered going into this if you care I can or someone else can)

Science is not anti religion - but it is pro rational thought, evidence and free thinking - and religion is anti these things

you will find that in science classes it is never stated "there is no god" - god is irrelevant

Quote from: ThaFleastyler;402395
It saddens me that you are so intolerant of others' beliefs. If you took a step back, you would see that the opinion you are promoting, and particularly the way you are promoting it, is as extreme as the "fundies" who want everyone to sign up to their churches and adopt their exact viewpoints. Also, saying that teaching I.D. in science classes makes you ill is a little over-dramatic, don't you think?

It is one thing for you to not believe in God, thats your choice and best of luck to you. But the fact of the matter is that you are among the minority, since (as stated) 5/6ths of the population of earth believe in a "God" or "higher power" in one form or another.




I am not intolerant of others beliefs - I am intolerant of christians trying to teach creationism as fact - what "opinion" am i promoting? I dont care what people believe, but i dont like christians trying to teach their view point as fact in a science class - I am very for freedom of thought - which religion is opposed to

how does being in a minority matter? that does not strengthen your augment, as the minority is not always wrong  


Sorry about the rambling post (and sorry to the speech teachers and people doing eng lit i am hung over so not checking for grammer/ spelling)

Reply #2290 Posted: April 26, 2007, 04:05:18 pm

Offline krasher

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I call it as it is.
I call it as I see it.
Until I call it it didn't happen.

Is there an ultimate reality?
Do we get to know it?
Is what we think about it right, or does the fact that we think it make it true?

Don't be so sure you know...society got over both science's and religions fixation with absolute truth a long time ago. Let go and learn from other peoples perspectives. Many things science has come up and decided as fact has changed over the years. Is butter better for you or margarine? I don't believe 'we' can afford the liberty of being sure anymore. We are supposed to be educated. What I am sure of is because of faith not proof. When are you going to realize that you are stuck in the same boat?

Reply #2291 Posted: April 26, 2007, 04:26:35 pm
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Offline ThaFleastyler

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One at a time! One at a time!

Quote from: cobra;402459
IT IS NOT A SCIENTIFIC THEORY

If Intelligent Design is not a scientific theory, then neither can the Big Bang or Evolution be considered scientific theories. The proof for those things is as scarce as the proof of God, if not scarcer.

Quote from: cobra;402459
Would you accept that if creationism should be taught in science classes then evolution should be taught at churches?

Intelligent Design is not Creationism, I consider them 2 seperate things. Creationism, in my mind, assumes that the Bible is 100% correct as written as regards the creation of earth/humans/etc, whereas Intelligent Design tries to fit the Biblical idea of creation to the scientific knowledge/theory of creation. Again, just my understanding.

Quote from: cobra;402459
Science is not anti religion - but it is pro rational thought, evidence and free thinking - and religion is anti these things

Correction: some religions are anti these things.
I consider myself a very rational thinker, when presented with evidence I consider it carefully, and I'm a free thinker. Not only that, but the other 600+ people at the church I go to are the same.

Quote from: cobra;402459
how does being in a minority matter? that does not strengthen your augment, as the minority is not always wrong

It doesn't matter; and the minority isn't always wrong. But the odds are stacked heavily against you being right that there is no God.

Reply #2292 Posted: April 26, 2007, 04:47:59 pm

Offline KiLL3r

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;402491
But the odds are stacked heavily against you being right that there is no God.


from what evidence? to be honest there is no evidence of god. there is not 1 shred of credible evidence in the entire world to prove gods existence!

Reply #2293 Posted: April 26, 2007, 05:10:44 pm


Offline Black Heart

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whats the evidence for ID ? evolution has fossils, big bang has the observable universe / it's movements and powerful telescopes to see more of it.

what is this scientifc theory? what calculations are there?

it's not science at all is it, it's just a theory, a non scientific theory. if it had any validity at all, you wouldn't need to pretend it was scientific. it would stand on its own merits, and it doesn't. and thats very sad because as far as theories go its one of the worst, because it answers NOTHING. the sentence 'god did it' does not satisfy anyones curiousity. it doesn't further anyones knowledge on how things have happened, its a total cop out.

Reply #2294 Posted: April 26, 2007, 05:12:02 pm

Offline cobra

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;402491
One at a time! One at a time!

If Intelligent Design is not a scientific theory, then neither can the Big Bang or Evolution be considered scientific theories. The proof for those things is as scarce as the proof of God, if not scarcer.


this shows great ignorance

There is evidence for both evolution and the big bang

and how do you get scarcer than none?

Reply #2295 Posted: April 26, 2007, 05:30:09 pm

Offline krasher

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Quote from: cobra;402550
this shows great ignorance

There is evidence for both evolution and the big bang

and how do you get scarcer then none?

There is evidence for all three. But it is all debatable. Otherwise we would be posting in other forums.

Reply #2296 Posted: April 26, 2007, 05:37:45 pm
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Offline KiLL3r

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Quote from: krasher;402561
There is evidence for all three. But it is all debatable. Otherwise we would be posting in other forums.



all 3, i only saw evolution and big bang. what the third? GOD? :laff:

Reply #2297 Posted: April 26, 2007, 05:42:38 pm


Offline Arnifix

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;402398
Out of curiosity, where would you teach it then? Its a scientific theory, rivalling the mainstream theory of earths creation. Science seems like the logical, if not blatantly punch-you-on-the-nose obvious, place to teach it.

What bothers you so much about students being taught, in a scientific way, that its also a commonly accepted theory that God may have created the earth?


Intelligent Design is not a scientific theory. Just because moronic Christians say it is does not make it true. It belongs in a religious studies type class.

There is no scientific way to teach people that God created the earth! The only evidence you have is an old book, and only one interpretation of an old book too, I might add.

If "Intelligent Design" were a scientific theory, then why are there no published articles on it in scientific journals? I'll answer my own question. Journals are peer reviewed. The creationists don't want to get torn apart by real scientists, because they know they can't prove this shit! And that's what it is, shit.

If I walked into a maths class and tried to teach "Intelligent Mathematics" where god simply put the answers into my brain, I'd get laughed off the face of the earth. So why should Intelligent Design be any different?

Reply #2298 Posted: April 26, 2007, 06:21:37 pm

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Offline Bell

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;402491

If Intelligent Design is not a scientific theory, then neither can the Big Bang or Evolution be considered scientific theories. The proof for those things is as scarce as the proof of God, if not scarcer.


You are fucking kidding right?

Reply #2299 Posted: April 26, 2007, 09:32:55 pm