Topic: Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

Offline ThaFleastyler

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Quote from: Simon_NZ;405942
currently about 97% of the human genome as been described as junk DNA - that is it doesn't code for anything. Maybe it will code for something in the future or a now defunct attribute from our past.

Is it possible that that 97% is what will give us our superhero powers?
Maybe 5% of the human genome works together to give us the ability to fly.
:D

Quote from: cobra;406097
I cant see why it matters if there has been these genetically identical people or not - can some one explain the point in cold hard logic

I am as lost as Cobra here - can someone please sum up this argument in plain English?

Reply #2425 Posted: April 29, 2007, 11:45:50 pm

Offline dirtyape

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Quote from: TofuEater;405686
But that doesn't cover it. For instance, identical twins tend to have the same thoughts and feelings, so why don't we all have the same thoughts and feelings? For instance, for any given situation human cogniscense should dictate that the same answer would be derived by every person on every occasion, but it's plainly not so.

Which means that environment plays a part - and that environment includes religion. You are therefore assuming that science has shaped religion, which means that in order for science to be right, religion must be right in which case most of you here are wrong.

There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.


The main problem in your logic is that you assume religion must be a component of everyones environment. This is untrue.

People act and behave differently for this reason: we have not all lived identically, we have experienced and gathered memories of different events, and everyones brain is therefore different - even clones.


Quote from: TofuEater;405731
Which is a flaw of science. There is no reason at all under a scientific basis that two people couldn't be exactly alike. Science has proven through cloning that it's possible, therefore it should be able to occur in the wild.

Theoretically every child that is born to the same parents should be identical as they have the same genetic makeup. They aren't which means that there must be something else (apart from pure science) that determines who we are.


So following your logic, only a single sex should be produced as male and female have differing genetic structure. This is an obvious flaw in any species that relies on sexual reproduction.

Your assertions that every child should be identical is simply incorrect.

Quote from: TofuEater;405742
But this is already occuring in nature AND in man-made conditions. Therefore it should be possible to introduce the same genetic material (from a man and a woman) and turn out an identical result. But it doesn't - why not?


Simple, our brains evolve throughout our lives. Each clone would have different memories and would therefore make different decisions. Clones are not identical. Do not fool yourself into thinking that they are.

Now earlier you mentioned identical twins thinking similarly. This is probably for this reason: identical twins are usually very close. They quite possibly share their experiences. Therefore they would have "similar" access to memories when making critical descisions. Do not assume that they share some metaphysical thought link.

I know of some identical twins, one is openly homosexual, the other is married with kids. They are very different people.

Reply #2426 Posted: April 29, 2007, 11:47:29 pm
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Offline Tiwaking!

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I've been discussing this with people at work, 3rd and 4th year medical students. The main point is: WHY cant all combinations of code equate to something?
Quote from: Simon_NZ;405942
currently about 97% of the human genome as been described as junk DNA - that is it doesn't code for anything. Maybe it will code for something in the future or a now defunct attribute from our past.

considering that such a large portion of our own DNA codes for nothing it is foolish of you to think that all those possible combinations, and you are assuming that they will combine, will combine AND then code for the production of proteins.

what we do know now is that the vast majority of genes are coded for exactly the same thing, google RNA cordon table if you don't believe me. Also futher I recommend you check out watson crick pairing, just because that is the possible number that will occur does not mean it will.

you clearly don't have a good grounding man, it is way more advance that total number of combinations. And I can't really be fucked getting into it. The very fact that the human genome is 3 billion base pairs long and ONLY codes for 20,000-25,000 genes gives you a idea of how naive you are being.

No I dont have a good grounding, but you're not helping me much either!

3,000,000,000 x 25000 = 750,000,000,000,000

This would be(at best) the approximate combinations for Human DNA. I could make further observations, but I believe that this equation is flawed
Quote from: TofuEater;405994
Your theory is way flawed. Firstly, humans (homo sapiens sapiens) have only been around for about 120000 years, not half a million. But even then, i would say that what we generally know as "human" have only been around for 10000 years or so, which reduces the number significantly.

Then you have to take into account mortality rates, where in earlier times probably only 1 in 5 managed to procreate themselves. Taking all that into account, i'm happy 10 billion. It might be a shade light, but it works for what we're trying to accomplish.

150,000,000,000 humans was a pejorative number. Ten billion is closer yes, but even if the number were much larger it would STILL not prove the fact that there is a possibility for identical natural genome sequencing.
Quote from: cobra;406097
I cant see why it matters if there has been these genetically identical people or not - can some one explain the point in cold hard logic

Well we cant explain in cold hard logic until someone gives me cold hard STATISTICS!

All I can find is variety of claims by the Human Genome Project saying they have 75%-82% completed the Genetic codes. Unfortunately centromeres and telomeres arent complete due to their reptitious and apparently redundant usage. This would most definitely skew any attempt to calculate the possible combinations

Reply #2427 Posted: April 30, 2007, 09:48:39 pm
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Offline Simon_NZ

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dude, i already explained - sure in theory it code all code for something magic and new, but considering that 97% of our own DNA doesn't code for anything that is likely.

also certain base pairs are much much more likely than others...

Reply #2428 Posted: April 30, 2007, 09:55:55 pm

Offline Tiwaking!

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Quote from: Simon_NZ;407432
dude, i already explained - sure in theory it code all code for something magic and new, but considering that 97% of our own DNA doesn't code for anything that is likely.

also certain base pairs are much much more likely than others...

Oops. What I meant is that I half-agree with you! Given the three thousand million base pair length, the number of combinations is going to be huge. Even reducing it to 3% though still gives us more combinations than the amount of living/lived humans. Its fairly safe to assume that no genetically identical human has appeared simply due to the transmission of DNA(Parents to Child), the number of maximum combinations having not been reached AND the possibility that certain codes code for nothing in particular.

On another note: Science is all about naieveity. A photon is intelligent. Dark matter knows only Gravity. Cats always land on their feet

Reply #2429 Posted: April 30, 2007, 10:10:41 pm
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Offline Simon_NZ

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Reply #2430 Posted: April 30, 2007, 10:15:14 pm

Offline Arnifix

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Quote from: Tiwaking!;407448
On another note: Science is all about naieveity. A photon is intelligent. Dark matter knows only Gravity. Cats always land on their feet


Cats control Dark Matter!

Reply #2431 Posted: May 01, 2007, 08:10:29 am

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Offline ThaFleastyler

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Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

Reply #2432 Posted: May 01, 2007, 09:14:44 am

Offline private_hell

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maybe the eygptians where right - cats are god....  :D

Reply #2433 Posted: May 01, 2007, 10:05:54 am
"Let him who desires peace prepare for war" - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (375AD) De Rei Militari


Offline cobra

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Quote from: private_hell;407807
maybe the eygptians where right - cats are god....


well - there is no proof that cats didn't create the universe - it makes you think

Reply #2434 Posted: May 01, 2007, 11:15:41 am

Offline (BHP)Clyock

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Quote from: cobra;407862
well - there is no proof that cats didn't create the universe - it makes you think


It was the mice wasn't it?

Reply #2435 Posted: May 01, 2007, 11:39:55 am

Offline Black Heart

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pretty stupid mice ,to make a universe with cats in it. then again, explain dogs if cats created the universe.

Reply #2436 Posted: May 01, 2007, 12:18:04 pm

Offline cobra

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Quote from: Black Heart;407895
pretty stupid mice ,to make a universe with cats in it. then again, explain dogs if cats created the universe.


um... I am guessing dogs are a test and you can't take the cat bible literally

Reply #2437 Posted: May 01, 2007, 02:02:35 pm

Offline Bell

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Reply #2438 Posted: May 01, 2007, 03:23:49 pm

Offline Tiwaking!

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Quote from: Prowess;364904
yes your school teacher was not interested in learning the truth of
the world they were wrong but didn't get that from the bible.i belive dinosaurs were on the ark.

Quote from: BBC News
Dutchman's Noah's Ark opens doors
 
The ark is nearly three storeys high

A half-sized replica of the biblical Noah's Ark has been built by a Dutch man, complete with model animals.

Dutch creationist Johan Huibers built the ark as testament to his literal belief in the Bible.

The ark, in the town of Schagen, is 150 cubits long - half the length of Noah's - and three storeys high. A cubit was about 45cm (18in) long.

The ark opened its doors on Saturday, after almost two years' construction, most of it by Mr Huiber himself.

The longest wooden ships we have today are no-longer than 340 feet(sorry, I cant find metric measurements), reinforced with iron straps and leak like all buggery and require constant pumping to remove the water.

Noahs ark is 450 feet. And has eight people on it. Eight people have to pump out the water by hand.

There are so many arguments against Noah's actual Ark. Eight people turn into nine completely distinctive human races? All the animals gather in one area to be picked up by the Ark, WTF?! God kills everyone on the planet except Noah. Nice one God! A repeat performance where you kill off all the stupid people would be nice

Reply #2439 Posted: May 02, 2007, 08:40:03 am
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Offline (BHP)Clyock

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Many civilisations have a "Great Flood" myth as part of thier history, it's just another case of the Bible\Christians co-opting stories from elswhere to perpetuate thier own beliefs\ideaologies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology)

Reply #2440 Posted: May 02, 2007, 08:49:28 am

Offline Arnifix

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Quote from: (BHP)Clyock;408943
Many civilisations have a "Great Flood" myth as part of thier history, it's just another case of the Bible\Christians co-opting stories from elswhere to perpetuate thier own beliefs\ideaologies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology)


Oh yeah, that's one of the really old ones. Very lol.

Reply #2441 Posted: May 02, 2007, 08:51:52 am

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Offline GoatSlayer

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Time 4 dis thred to b dumbed down. The myth that Jesus was ressurected is kindof true. i was reading this thread before i went to work and I thought that maybe the big J.C went into a coma  
after being hit in the head with a few rocks up on the cross, went into a catatonic state, few days later he wakes up, talks like a madman then dies from his residual injuries a wee bit later. Then i think Moses molested a horse.

Reply #2442 Posted: May 02, 2007, 08:56:12 am

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Q: What is a gentleman?
A: A man who can play the accordion, but doesn\'t.

Offline Simon_NZ

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there is actually some very good geologic evidence for a "great" "flood" myth from the black sea

its pretty LoL - it was more the local water level rising a few meters in 20 years.

Reply #2443 Posted: May 02, 2007, 08:57:50 am

Offline private_hell

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Quote from: Tiwaking!;408938
The longest wooden ships we have today are no-longer than 340 feet(sorry, I cant find metric measurements), reinforced with iron straps and leak like all buggery and require constant pumping to remove the water.

Noahs ark is 450 feet. And has eight people on it. Eight people have to pump out the water by hand.



wouldnt it have been coated with tar to seal the joints?

Reply #2444 Posted: May 02, 2007, 09:16:31 am
"Let him who desires peace prepare for war" - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (375AD) De Rei Militari


Offline Black Heart

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woods flexible, oceans aren't calm, sealed joints crack/split.

Reply #2445 Posted: May 02, 2007, 09:26:50 am

Offline Tiwaking!

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Quote from: private_hell;408966
wouldnt it have been coated with tar to seal the joints?

Quote from: Black Heart;408978
woods flexible, oceans aren't calm, sealed joints crack/split.

Yes and I think Private has missed the point....

Right now, in the Twenty-First century, there is no way to make a boat that big out of the materials we have(steel reinforced wood) that would create a boat that wouldnt require modern technology or a HUGE amount of human effort to keep afloat.

Originally that noob Dutchman wanted to set his Ark afloat but that might be out of the question now

Reply #2446 Posted: May 02, 2007, 09:52:53 am
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Offline cobra

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Quote from: Tiwaking!;408996
Yes and I think Private has missed the point....

Right now, in the Twenty-First century, there is no way to make a boat that big out of the materials we have(steel reinforced wood) that would create a boat that wouldnt require modern technology or a HUGE amount of human effort to keep afloat.

Originally that noob Dutchman wanted to set his Ark afloat but that might be out of the question now


But if the ark was sealed with jesus's love it could float

Reply #2447 Posted: May 02, 2007, 10:59:43 am

Offline ThaFleastyler

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Quote from: Tiwaking!;408996
Yes and I think Private has missed the point....

Right now, in the Twenty-First century, there is no way to make a boat that big out of the materials we have(steel reinforced wood) that would create a boat that wouldnt require modern technology or a HUGE amount of human effort to keep afloat.

Originally that noob Dutchman wanted to set his Ark afloat but that might be out of the question now


Quote from: cobra;409040
But if the ark was sealed with jesus's love it could float

Cobra is obviously being sarcastic, but to any person who believes the story as it appears in the bible, the power of God overrules any technical shortcomings.

Reply #2448 Posted: May 02, 2007, 11:02:44 am

Offline cobra

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;409045
Cobra is obviously being sarcastic, but to any person who believes the story as it appears in the bible, the power of God overrules any technical shortcomings.



kinda my point - god is a magician - the ultimate trump card in religious arguments - but for anyone unsure about the whole noah thing, its a myth

Reply #2449 Posted: May 02, 2007, 11:30:04 am