Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[TofuEater]

Were I faced with this guy, I'd gladly turn Militant atheist

I presume you mean the Christian dood - is that because he completely pwned the atheist in the convo?

1. The atheist said that voluntary worship was allowed in schools.
Pwned by the Christian who said that it wasn't because students couldn't bow their heads or close their eyes.

2. The "situational ethics". I can understand where the Christian is coming from - during and after the war, there were thousands of people who said "i was just following orders".

There are extremists on both sides of the argument. If people are doing their own thing, without harming others then where's the issue?

[Simon_NZ]

the issue is that America was founded as a secular state. Thomas Jefferson wanted a wall between religion and state - so no matter what you hear today the founding fathers would be rolling over in their graves after seeing religion being given its own time in schools - and how likely do you think it is that you cant pray in schools? are you that naive? how difficult do you think it would to pray?

what about the rights of atheist children? they have just as much right to not have religious dribble imposed on them at a place that is meant to be completely separate from religion in the first place.

if you think he has any point your sadly mistaken, when is it ever ethical to perform genocide?

[ThaFleastyler]

[video]-hM8MiD95Nk&[/video]
Were I faced with this guy, I'd gladly turn Militant atheist

I presume you mean the Christian dood - is that because he completely pwned the atheist in the convo?

1. The atheist said that voluntary worship was allowed in schools.
Pwned by the Christian who said that it wasn't because students couldn't bow their heads or close their eyes.

2. The "situational ethics". I can understand where the Christian is coming from - during and after the war, there were thousands of people who said "i was just following orders".

There are extremists on both sides of the argument. If people are doing their own thing, without harming others then where's the issue?

I kind of agree with both guys in that vid, but at some point you have to consider what is reasonable. In regards to prayer in schools, if atheists wanted to stop classes, bow their heads and think about how much they dislike Christians, would Christians endorse that? Of course not! They would say "well, its disrupting the class". If students want prayer times in school, surely they could setup a meeting place and time to do that. I don't see how that should negatively affect the day to day running of the school - in the scheme of things, a prayer meeting is pretty harmless stuff.

In regards to the Hitler logic thing, what an ass. If I was confronted with a Christian guy that compared the states logic to the same logic Hitler used to kill jews (the implication being that the state is endorsing Hitlers policies) then I think I would become a militant atheist (at least, for the duration of the discussion).

[TofuEater]

In regards to prayer in schools, if atheists wanted to stop classes, bow their heads and think about how much they dislike Christians, would Christians endorse that? Of course not!

Sorry, i didn't realise that they wanted to pray in class - that's totally unacceptable.

[KiLL3r]

Superintendent Chalmers: "Thank the Lord"? That sounded like a prayer. A prayer in a public school. God has no place within these walls, just like facts don't have a place within an organized religion.

Chalmers had it right

[Simon_NZ]

also, as the atheist pointed how - school is a place to learn how to think, religion is the exact opposite of that, requiring of blind faith, regardless of all the evidence to the contrary.

But atheists don't want that - atheist don't dislike Christians, they disagree with their beliefs. The fact remains is the secular separation from state and religion - prayer in schools

The First Amendment of the United States Constitution Thomas Jefferson wrote: "...I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." - Atheism is not a religion.

[Arnifix]

Some athiests dislike christians. Just like some athiests like christians. Just like George Takei loves sweaty basketball players. In fact, he's going to have sex with them.

[ThaFleastyler]

I think the key here is not to get "prayer in class" (which seemed to be the point of what they were saying) mixed up with "prayer in school" - I don't see how an atheist could be against Christians (or any religion) organizing a small prayer meeting seperate to regular classes, anymore than Christians could be against the school having rugby practice at lunchtime or something like that. Its just harmless. As for prayer IN class, which I always take to mean opening a class with prayer, or having prayer times during a class - at a Christian school, this is acceptable. At a secular school, this is simply forcing a belief onto people, which as the video, and Simon, have pointed out is against the reason FOR school.

[ThaFleastyler]

Some athiests dislike christians. Just like some athiests like christians. Just like George Takei loves sweaty basketball players. In fact, he's going to have sex with them.

Your input is always a laugh.

By the way, is that true about George Takei? :eek:

[Arnifix]

Your input is always a laugh.

By the way, is that true about George Takei? :eek:

Not all the time I hope.

And is it true that George Takei is gay and


would like to have sex with sweaty basketball players?

[Tiwaking!]

Not all the time I hope.

And is it true that George Takei is gay and would like to have sex with sweaty basketball players?

Unbelieveable

My respect for George Takei just reached new limits of respectfuhood

[TofuEater]

also, as the atheist pointed how - school is a place to learn how to think, religion is the exact opposite of that, requiring of blind faith, regardless of all the evidence to the contrary.

How can you not form an opinion of something if you aren't exposed to it? For instance, i'm sure most of the people on these forums have been exposed to religion at some point, but it appears that most have rejected it. For athetists to want to "convert" christians is no more right than christians wanting to convert atheists. Why don't you people just learn to live and let live - it doesn't affect YOU, so who gives a shit?

[Arnifix]

How can you not form an opinion of something if you aren't exposed to it? For instance, i'm sure most of the people on these forums have been exposed to religion at some point, but it appears that most have rejected it. For athetists to want to "convert" christians is no more right than christians wanting to convert atheists. Why don't you people just learn to live and let live - it doesn't affect YOU, so who gives a shit?

It DOES affect us. The United States has gone from a secular society to a right-wing, Christian-controlled state of affairs which uses this religious power to control and manipulate its subjects. This affects me. And I believe you will find that religious froots start far more we live and make you die conflicts than atheists. So I give a shit.

[Simon_NZ]

I went to a religious school since std 3, i had chapel 3 times a week and religious ed for about a hour a week.

but it does affect me ~ belief in pseudoscience and the increasing numbers of evangelical Christians even in NZ is alarming, perhaps you don't read as much about this as I do. if you did maybe you would see were some of us are coming from. These things worry me, indoctrination of, and labeling children as a Jewish, or Muslin, or Christian worries me. What right do parents have to impose their own beliefs on impressionable minds? Why is it that when I go down to botany there are more books on crystals and bibles than there is on science? As the late Carl Sagan said : "I worry that, especially as the Millennium edges nearer, pseudo-science and superstition will seem year by year more tempting, the siren song of unreason more sonorous and attractive."

[TofuEater]

It DOES affect us. The United States has gone from a secular society to a right-wing, Christian-controlled state of affairs which uses this religious power to control and manipulate its subjects. This affects me.

How - explain what has happened in your life that has been directly affected by the US being a "right-wing, Christian-controlled state" (which by the way i don't believe it is)?

[Menial]

Their pandering to the corporations makes them "right wing".  Their president being a bible spouting infant makes them "christian controlled"

Fuck the US, but atleast their values are better than that of Islam on the whole.

[Arnifix]

How - explain what has happened in your life that has been directly affected by the US being a "right-wing, Christian-controlled state" (which by the way i don't believe it is)?

Increased fuel prices, heightened "security" at airports and schools, idiotic invasions of privacy and the general decay of civilized society?

[Menial]

Takei has THE BEST cameos

[Simon_NZ]

heres some reasons:

"Freedom is on the march in this world. I believe everybody in the Middle East desires to live in freedom. I believe women in the Middle East want to live in a free society. I believe mothers and fathers want to raise their children in a free and peaceful world. I believe all these things, because freedom is not America's gift to the world, freedom is the almighty God's gift to each man and woman in this world."
--Speech in Pennsylvania, October 22, 2004

"I wouldn't pick a judge who said that the Pledge of Allegiance couldn't be said in a school because it had the words 'under God'' in it. I think that's an example of a judge allowing personal opinion to enter into the decision-making process, as opposed to strict interpretation of the Constitution."
--Second Presidential Debate, St. Louis, October 8, 2004

"We need common-sense judges who understand our rights were derived from God,"
--As quoted in ""Understanding the President and his God"

"I think it's very important that we protect marriage as an institution between a man and a woman. I proposed a constitutional amendment. The reason I did so was because I was worried that activist judges are actually defining the definition of marriage. And the surest way to protect marriage between a man and woman is to amend the Constitution."
--Third Presidential Debate, Tempe, AZ, October 13, 2004


These, from my wider reading are very moderate views ~ yet im sure you can even see what they imply. Views much harsher than this are shared by our own Brian Tamaki, I mean look at some of these nuggets of goodness:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10332266

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?c_id=500818&objectid=10424395

I mean hell, just look at the exclusive brethren for crying out loud ~ this is happening in OUR country.

"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power." - Sam Harris

[private_hell]

i have a question that is semi related to this topic - what is you opinion of our national anthem - because it is quite clearly makes reference to God.

do you think it should be changed?

and which God would you say we are asking for help from?





and i think Brian Tamaki is actually doing more harm than good to the Christian religion - just like suicide bombers are giving Islam a bad name

[KiLL3r]

Increased fuel prices, heightened "security" at airports and schools, idiotic invasions of privacy and the general decay of civilized society?

agreed, tofu must be walking around with his head up his ass if he cant see the obvious

sorry simon_nz & arnifix i was wrong

edited for truth

[Tiwaking!]

I presume you mean the Christian dood - is that because he completely pwned the atheist in the convo?

1. The atheist said that voluntary worship was allowed in schools.
Pwned by the Christian who said that it wasn't because students couldn't bow their heads or close their eyes.

I think this point was clearly refuted and requires no further comment from me

2. The "situational ethics". I can understand where the Christian is coming from - during and after the war, there were thousands of people who said "i was just following orders".

There are extremists on both sides of the argument. If people are doing their own thing, without harming others then where's the issue?

In regards to the Hitler logic thing, what an ass

Hitler was a devout Christian, this is fact. Now: Im not saying that all Christians are Hitler, Its just that Hitler identified himself and followed fundamentalist Christian teachings and I would believe, due to NO evidence to the contrary, that Hitler is in heaven right now.

Thusly the 'situational ethics' promoted by the Christian haranguer that people were 'just following orders' means that they were following Hitlers orders, who was following Gods orders.

and which God would you say we are asking for help from?

Tu Matuenga tends to answer all queries in Klingon so he might be abit of a no-no. And Tawhiri Matea is just a big windbag

[KiLL3r]

and i think Brian Tamaki is actually doing more harm than good to the Christian religion - just like suicide bombers are giving Islam a bad name

everyone in destiny church is maori or pacific islander anyways

[Black Heart]

How can you not form an opinion of something if you aren't exposed to it? For instance, i'm sure most of the people on these forums have been exposed to religion at some point, but it appears that most have rejected it. For athetists to want to "convert" christians is no more right than christians wanting to convert atheists. Why don't you people just learn to live and let live - it doesn't affect YOU, so who gives a shit?

thats pretty flawed. if i decide to kill orphans does that affect you? If you decide to fuck your pets, does that affect me?

[Black Heart]

what i don't get with GWB is if god  tells him so when hes doing the right thing, as he claims. why doesn't god tell him when he's fucking things up? ie WMD.