Topic: Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

Offline Zarkov

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Quote from: cobra;412534
lol - do you have an online rhetoric generator?


He does,

It generates enough rhetoric to power a city the size of Auckland.

Reply #2550 Posted: May 05, 2007, 08:56:51 pm

Offline Arnifix

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Quote from: Zarkov;412778
He does,

It generates enough rhetoric to power a city the size of Auckland.


That's a lot of rhetoric!

Reply #2551 Posted: May 05, 2007, 09:09:58 pm

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Offline KiLL3r

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Quote from: Tiwaking!;409899


Epicurus taught this incredibly simple, yet ultimately infallible logic:
"If God is all powerful, why does God allow evil to exist? If God is willing, but unable to prevent evil, then God is not all powerful. If God is able, but unwilling then God is malevolent. If God is unwilling and unable then Why call him God?"



someone gave me neg rep when i had that in my sig. the comment cracked me up


"doesn't malevolent mean good??? nub nub"

Reply #2552 Posted: May 05, 2007, 09:23:58 pm


Offline broncos

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wow, 63 pages of drivel, sorry guys couldn't get past page 1.

Reply #2553 Posted: May 05, 2007, 09:37:29 pm

Offline Fragin

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Quote from: broncos;412836
wow, 63 pages of drivel, sorry guys couldn't get past page 1.

ok

thanks for ur input though.

Reply #2554 Posted: May 05, 2007, 09:50:18 pm
Originally Posted by Templar
If my mother kills someone, then gets out of jail and kills someone again and she is guilty beyond any doubt, then yes I will be sad but she\'d have to go.


Originally Posted by Xt1ncT
You see, you or Pyro doesn\'t get to choose how I define my own words. I do.

Offline Simon_NZ

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dont worry broncos - i win in the end.

Reply #2555 Posted: May 05, 2007, 09:52:19 pm

Offline Fragin

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i end up nailing myself to a cross just to see what all the fuss is about

Reply #2556 Posted: May 05, 2007, 10:16:16 pm
Originally Posted by Templar
If my mother kills someone, then gets out of jail and kills someone again and she is guilty beyond any doubt, then yes I will be sad but she\'d have to go.


Originally Posted by Xt1ncT
You see, you or Pyro doesn\'t get to choose how I define my own words. I do.

Offline ThaFleastyler

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I end up becoming a militant atheist.

(Not really. But I'm still weighing up my options :D :D)

Reply #2557 Posted: May 05, 2007, 10:50:21 pm

Offline Simon_NZ

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Quote from: Fragin';412885
i end up nailing myself to a cross just to see what all the fuss is about


awww i liked the old one

Reply #2558 Posted: May 06, 2007, 12:29:03 am

Offline Lazza

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Quote from: Arnifix;412773
The distinction is valuable because according to many homophobes, homosexuality is not natural. They argue that it is "wrong" that a man should "lie with" a man, because it is not natural. My comment intended to prove this allegation incorrect and completely without basis.


To suggest a behavior is natural just because it occurs in nature is extremely narrow minded definition of "natural" (your sheep example). Saying it's natural in itself is as meaningless as saying it's unnatural in itself; without expansion the argument has no point.

Homophobes? You do realise that to qualify as "phobic" you must meet certain criteria, the fear must be irrational, and the resulting behavior must also be irrational.

Personally I'm against homosexuality. I have dozens of reasons why. But there is no medically recognised disorder known as "homophobia" and the use of the word deliberately attempts to falsely claim scientific support (as in other real phobias).

Reply #2559 Posted: May 06, 2007, 02:03:44 am
Werner Erhard (Dressage Commentator) - "This is really a lovely horse and I speak from personal experience since I once mounted her mother."

Goatfodda - "If you artillery another flag where I\'m at alone I\'ll come kill you myself."

Offline cobra

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Quote from: Lazza;412988
To suggest a behavior is natural just because it occurs in nature is extremely narrow minded definition of "natural" (your sheep example).


lol - yeah my definition of natural is stuff that doesn't happen in nature

Reply #2560 Posted: May 06, 2007, 03:57:31 am

Offline TofuEater

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Quote from: Fragin';412698
From wiki - "Exit polls revealed Americans who voted for President Bush cited the issues of terrorism and moral values as the most important factors in their decision." - 2004 election.

More than 80% of NZers were against the Anti-Smacking Bill which is a moral issue, so by your inference we are becoming a "hard right Christian fundamentalist" state.

Reply #2561 Posted: May 06, 2007, 06:13:03 am
Quote from: Fran O\'Sullivan
The best thing about Finance Minister Bill English\'s latest Budget is that it does finally signal a much greater role for the private sector in the New Zealand economy. And another step along the way to extract this country from the political cul-de-sac in which Helen Clark\'s Labour Government parked us.

Offline Arnifix

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Quote from: Lazza;412988
To suggest a behavior is natural just because it occurs in nature is extremely narrow minded definition of "natural" (your sheep example). Saying it's natural in itself is as meaningless as saying it's unnatural in itself; without expansion the argument has no point.

Homophobes? You do realise that to qualify as "phobic" you must meet certain criteria, the fear must be irrational, and the resulting behavior must also be irrational.

Personally I'm against homosexuality. I have dozens of reasons why. But there is no medically recognised disorder known as "homophobia" and the use of the word deliberately attempts to falsely claim scientific support (as in other real phobias).


I've had about 8 hours sleep in the past three days, cut me some slack for not being verbose.

Homophobic means "prejudiced against homosexual people" (Link). You say that you are against homosexuality. That's pretty irrational. There isn't a war going on. The Village People aren't coming to take your penis away.

I think any discussion of homosexuality should happen in another thread, this one is big enough.

Reply #2562 Posted: May 06, 2007, 06:23:28 am

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Offline Arnifix

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Quote from: TofuEater;413022
More than 80% of NZers were against the Anti-Smacking Bill which is a moral issue, so by your inference we are becoming a "hard right Christian fundamentalist" state.


Dude, what the hell. You're still allowed to hit your kids. From many people's perspectives, you've still won. I haven't seen any stats since the amendment, are people happy with the changes? I'm guessing that majority of people are.

And no, we're not becoming a hard right Christian fundamentalist society. The majority of Americans are Christian. The majority of NZ'ers are not, but the ones whinging most about this bill just happen to be the more idiotic god botherers.

Reply #2563 Posted: May 06, 2007, 06:44:28 am

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Offline Arnifix

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Quote from: TofuEater;413022
More than 80% of NZers were against the Anti-Smacking Bill which is a moral issue, so by your inference we are becoming a "hard right Christian fundamentalist" state.


Dude, what the hell. You're still allowed to hit your kids. From many people's perspectives, you've still won. I haven't seen any stats since the amendment, are people happy with the changes? I'm guessing that majority of people are.

And no, we're not becoming a hard right Christian fundamentalist society. The majority of Americans are Christian. The majority of NZ'ers are not, but the ones whinging most about this bill just happen to be the more idiotic god botherers.

Reply #2564 Posted: May 06, 2007, 06:50:11 am

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Offline TofuEater

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Quote from: Arnifix;413026
Dude, what the hell.

Dood, you've missed the point. Get some sleep.

Reply #2565 Posted: May 06, 2007, 06:57:08 am
Quote from: Fran O\'Sullivan
The best thing about Finance Minister Bill English\'s latest Budget is that it does finally signal a much greater role for the private sector in the New Zealand economy. And another step along the way to extract this country from the political cul-de-sac in which Helen Clark\'s Labour Government parked us.

Offline Simon_NZ

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the only point that your missing is that your wrong.

you have clutched at nothing but air for the last page.

your wrong - deal with it.

Reply #2566 Posted: May 06, 2007, 08:21:43 am

Offline TofuEater

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Quote from: Simon_NZ;412645
And sure, it would be possible to make a hypothetical argument for Britain - but I think you knew that was full of shit when you posted it. The Queen doesn't make decisions, Tony B doesn't call her up for scones and tea and asks her permission to go to war.

Exactly, and so it is with the US. Bush is the titular head of state, but there are other constitutional and legal mechanisms that override his power - the power of STATE. So in the same way that, constitutionally, Britain isn't a religious autocracy the US isn't either.

While the US may have as it's head a person who believes in and feels he is guided by, God, it doesn't mean that that is the case for the State. In fact, the US constitution specifically excludes such a thing.

Reply #2567 Posted: May 06, 2007, 09:14:56 am
Quote from: Fran O\'Sullivan
The best thing about Finance Minister Bill English\'s latest Budget is that it does finally signal a much greater role for the private sector in the New Zealand economy. And another step along the way to extract this country from the political cul-de-sac in which Helen Clark\'s Labour Government parked us.

Offline Lazza

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Quote from: Arnifix;413024
I've had about 8 hours sleep in the past three days, cut me some slack for not being verbose.

Homophobic means "prejudiced against homosexual people" (Link). You say that you are against homosexuality. That's pretty irrational. There isn't a war going on. The Village People aren't coming to take your penis away.


In that case the formation of the word is nonsensical and contradicts the intended meaning. Simply not liking or agreeing is not irrational, and is not a phobia. To classify as an anxiety disorder type the phobic must demonstrate either a measurable "fight or flight" physiological response and / or significant psychological impairment (e.g. hiding in the dark).

As I said, to use the word homophobic or homophobe is falsely claiming a scientific basis (by being classified as a phobia) when there is none.

So how did this misconception arise? Well the queer community chose this definition for those who oppose them to turn the tables, and suggest it is in fact their opposers who are not normal. And in my view this is a sad indictment of the character of those who perpetuate the myth of "homophobia".

Quote from: Arnifix;413024
I think any discussion of homosexuality should happen in another thread, this one is big enough.


You're probably right there.

Reply #2568 Posted: May 06, 2007, 12:08:56 pm
Werner Erhard (Dressage Commentator) - "This is really a lovely horse and I speak from personal experience since I once mounted her mother."

Goatfodda - "If you artillery another flag where I\'m at alone I\'ll come kill you myself."

Offline Fragin

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Quote from: Lazza;413211
In that case the formation of the word is nonsensical and contradicts the intended meaning. Simply not liking or agreeing is not irrational, and is not a phobia. To classify as an anxiety disorder type the phobic must demonstrate either a measurable "fight or flight" physiological response and / or significant psychological impairment (e.g. hiding in the dark).

As I said, to use the word homophobic or homophobe is falsely claiming a scientific basis (by being classified as a phobia) when there is none.

So how did this misconception arise? Well the queer community chose this definition for those who oppose them to turn the tables, and suggest it is in fact their opposers who are not normal. And in my view this is a sad indictment of the character of those who perpetuate the myth of "homophobia".

^ an 'in-depth' analysis to match an 'in-depth' prejudice.


Which is sadder? The fact that a minority of the population have been subjected to constant bigotry, discrimination, and prejudice since always, based purely on misinformation, irrational fear, and holy scripture. Or, as a reaction to such prejudice, said minority formulate a term slightly incorrectly?

Which one is the sadder indictment of a person's character?



I think a discussion of homophobia fits in just fine in the religious thread.

Reply #2569 Posted: May 06, 2007, 04:45:08 pm
Originally Posted by Templar
If my mother kills someone, then gets out of jail and kills someone again and she is guilty beyond any doubt, then yes I will be sad but she\'d have to go.


Originally Posted by Xt1ncT
You see, you or Pyro doesn\'t get to choose how I define my own words. I do.

Offline cobra

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Quote from: Fragin';413413
^ an 'in-depth' analysis to match an 'in-depth' prejudice.


Which is sadder? The fact that a minority of the population have been subjected to constant bigotry, discrimination, and prejudice since always, based purely on misinformation, irrational fear, and holy scripture. Or, as a reaction to such prejudice, said minority formulate a term slightly incorrectly?

Which one is the sadder indictment of a person's character?



I think a discussion of homophobia fits in just fine in the religious thread.


word

Reply #2570 Posted: May 06, 2007, 05:51:49 pm

Offline Lazza

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Quote from: Fragin';413413
^ an 'in-depth' analysis to match an 'in-depth' prejudice.


Which is sadder? The fact that a minority of the population have been subjected to constant bigotry, discrimination, and prejudice since always, based purely on misinformation, irrational fear, and holy scripture. Or, as a reaction to such prejudice, said minority formulate a term slightly incorrectly?

Which one is the sadder indictment of a person's character?

I think a discussion of homophobia fits in just fine in the religious thread.


I've shown why it's not a phobia, and now it's a "prejudice", again erroneously. It's not ok for me to hold anti homosexual views yet it's ok for you to make a large number of erroneous assumptions about me (above).

Homophobia has been officially rejected as a clinical syndrome. It does not exist because nobody can be diagnosed with it.

The term wasn't formulated slightly incorrectly at all, it was deliberately chosen to mislabel anyone who disagrees with homosexuality as having a mental disorder.

Reply #2571 Posted: May 06, 2007, 07:28:54 pm
Werner Erhard (Dressage Commentator) - "This is really a lovely horse and I speak from personal experience since I once mounted her mother."

Goatfodda - "If you artillery another flag where I\'m at alone I\'ll come kill you myself."

Offline Fragin

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Quote from: Lazza;413521
I've shown why it's not a phobia, and now it's a "prejudice", again erroneously.

Homophobia has been officially rejected as a clinical syndrome. It does not exist because nobody can be diagnosed with it.

The term wasn't formulated slightly incorrectly at all, it was deliberately chosen to mislabel anyone who disagrees with homosexuality as having a mental disorder.


I agree that, technically, the word is used incorrectly 95% of the time, but practically.............. it's pretty close :thumb: .

Let's not hide behind semantics huh?

Homophobia as a clinical condition certainly does exist and has not been "officially rejected" as you so ridiculously claim. It was first coined by the clinical psychologist George Weinberg (who has been a long time advocate for the gay and lesbian community in the US). He defined it as...

"Homophobia is just that: a phobia. A morbid and irrational dread which prompts irrational behaviour flight or the desire to destroy the stimulus for the phobia and anything reminiscent of it."

It was not "deliberately chosen to mislabel anyone who disagrees with homosexuality as having a mental disorder". It has been recognised as a true phobia. The fact that it has come to be used to describe anti-homosexual attitudes in general is not a cause for Great Online Debate (GOD for short :thumb:).


Quote
It's not ok for me to hold misinformed, irrational, prejudiced anti homosexual views yet it's ok for you to make a large number of accurate assumptions about me (above).

fixed.


Actually i've done a bit of reading up on you....

"A more serious form of anti-homosexual response is seen in the individual who hates, fears, and/or is disgusted by homosexuality. This is most usually seen in males responding to male homosexuality. These individuals obviously have impaired judgement, and are much more frightened than the first group of individuals with minor anti-homosexual feelings. Their impaired judgement tends to put them in the large group of borderline ego organization. Here, the individual is dealing with insecurity about his own intactness as an individual with significant elements of impaired self-esteem."

Awww cheer up dude :violin:



What your trying to do is hide your prejudice behind semantics and the precise definition of the word 'phobia'. Pretty fucken lame.


Reply #2572 Posted: May 06, 2007, 09:12:59 pm
Originally Posted by Templar
If my mother kills someone, then gets out of jail and kills someone again and she is guilty beyond any doubt, then yes I will be sad but she\'d have to go.


Originally Posted by Xt1ncT
You see, you or Pyro doesn\'t get to choose how I define my own words. I do.

Offline cobra

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religion vs science or reasonable people vs haters?

fragin - even though you are a dude, i love you

Reply #2573 Posted: May 06, 2007, 09:34:38 pm

Offline Fragin

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Quote from: cobra;413660
religion vs science or reasonable people vs haters?

fragin - even though you are a dude, i love you


awww i love you too man. lets have bum secks while lazza watches

Reply #2574 Posted: May 06, 2007, 09:44:22 pm
Originally Posted by Templar
If my mother kills someone, then gets out of jail and kills someone again and she is guilty beyond any doubt, then yes I will be sad but she\'d have to go.


Originally Posted by Xt1ncT
You see, you or Pyro doesn\'t get to choose how I define my own words. I do.