Topic: Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

Offline Fragin

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Reply #350 Posted: April 10, 2006, 04:36:43 pm
Originally Posted by Templar
If my mother kills someone, then gets out of jail and kills someone again and she is guilty beyond any doubt, then yes I will be sad but she\'d have to go.


Originally Posted by Xt1ncT
You see, you or Pyro doesn\'t get to choose how I define my own words. I do.

Offline laurasaur

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Hello all, it me again!! Yay, another long post, designed to be read only by those who can be bothered  :bounce:  :bounce:  :bounce:

Whether or not one considers the supernatural as the ultimate excuse, does NOT negate it as a possibility, annoying or not. Infact it is naive to rule it out as a possibility because there is nothing to go by to even assume that its not a factor!

If you assume that I'm hell bent on defending creationism because I'm desperate to protect my "religion", you will have to allow me to make the same claim against you: You are hell bent on defending evolution to protect your belief in Naturalism i.e., the absence of the supernatural. (As it was, I was at pains to point out that I believe in my beliefs because of the evidence for creation, and not the other way around)

If evolutionists are allowed to change their theories, why aren't creationists allowed to change there theories as well, as new evidence comes along!

Quote
I smell bullshit. Show me one shred of proof that you have a common ancestor for every species from the family canidae. My money is that you can't. And yet, you are using this exact same argument to criticise scientists who study evolution. Do you have fossil evidence showing that at (insert time of flood here) there was mass extinction of animals? Because I'm fairly certain that nobody else has.


But infact, if you had any simple idea as to how evolution is supposed to work, it proposes the very thing you say is nonsense. All dog kinds have one common ancestor, by both creation and evolutionary theories! The point of difference is that creationists say that dogs have always been dogs of various kinds, whereas evolutionists say that the original ancestor our dog types itself evolved from non-dog, eg, from primitive mammal, which evolved from reptile, which evolved from amphibian, which evolved from fish, and so on. I get the feeling that you actually do not even have a good understanding of the claims of evolution, let alone creation, so as some one mentioned above, if you have no idea, keep quiet.

Incidently as Nick points out, Simon's supposed proof of increase in genetic information is covered by the above: the foxes in the study were still foxes, with no increase in genetic info, just a rearrangment or sorting of genes already there. Infact, if the trend continued, and the wild foxes died out leaving only domesticated foxes, the original pool of genetic info will have quite likely decreased overall! Ie, the original wild foxes genes contained info for both wild and other types of foxes; if a sub group is bred to replace the original, the total gene pool will have decreased. (Read Mendels still standing works if you want clarification on how it all works). If you don't understand, I can explain further and provide references if you like.

The evidence for a catastrophic flood, landslides, extremely fast burial of millions and billions of animals (especially marine life) are everywhere. You want references? (Even you must admit dirtyape, mass graves containing millions of fossils all over the world shouldn't need references.) Read D. Heyler and C.M. Poplin, ‘The Fossils of Montceau-les-Mines’, Scientific American, September, 1988, or http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/26/science/26FOSS.html, or Woodmorappe, J., Studies in Flood Geology, for just a few  random examples of zillions of articles that look a mass deposits of fossils. Read your school geology book dude! Sure, they interpret them using evolutionary assumptions, but thats because they are evolutionists; the mass graves that cover the globe are excellent evidence of catastrophic flood waters and its aftermath. Hell, the grand canyon offers just as much evidence of masses of water retreating in a very short time, as it does for a tiny amount of water over a very long time. Its all about what assumption you apply to the evidence: billions of years, or a few thousand years.

Arnifix, let me repeat myself: Whether or not I'm a "radical" or whether or not the God I believe in is "evil" affects my line of logic none at all. If you don't have the IQ to follow the logic and respond accordingly, then don't bother responding. Saying "its bloody obvious which way it happened" and "cold hard facts proved they were primitive people" and "Your God sucks" do nothing to refute my line of reasoning. Neither does suggesting I have been brainwashed. (But hang on, I have chosen to be exposed to both sides of the arguement. Most people go in and out of school/uni/general life only every being educated in one way: the evolutionary way. "Brainwashed" is a very relative term.)

Again, Fragin', instead of constructively critisizing my logic, you skirt it by writing down your assumptions as to my background and beliefs.

Yes dirtyape, you did have some material of note, which I only briefly got to address (although that brief everyone decided to skip for some reason). If you free me up by telling the above mentioned members that although you may agree with them, they are not helping things by their inability to argue logically, I will gladly move on to actually debating the evidence.

Blackheart is correct, there were many civilisations that were aware of the earth being spherical. Possibly some members of the church did (hey, some may still) believe the earth was flat. So what!? Darwin believed in spontaneous generation! What members of a particular group may have incorrectly believed proves very little; the point is, the Bible refers to the earth being spherical, not flat.

Fair enough blackheart, given the evidence you have been exposed to, the Noahic flood seems ridiculous. I expect it to be to anyone who has only ever looked into one side of the arguement.

As for humans "increased intelligence", there is no evidence to suggest that this is because of an increase in genetic information. The fact that an adopted baby from a primitive tribe in Africa but brought up in a developed country can grow up to gain a Doctorate indicates that its all about using the potential that our brains already have. By my theory (and I freely admit its a theory, based on assumptions) is that the potential of the human brain pre flood could have been much greater.

And yes, the Bible gives painstaking details of the average age pre flood being around 850years, which then decreases within the subsequent 500 years to anywhere between 70 and 120. This is what one would expect given the expected huge downgrade in enviroment the full catastrophy Genesis would predict. Yes, this is all theory based on the assumption that Genesis may be true, so I don't expect you to swallow it as fact. Just as you shouldn't expect me to swallow evolutionist theory which is assumed because one has already assumed evolution to be true.

A creationist would expect to find imperfections in our world as the general idea is that the world started of perfect, and has been degenerating ever since.

Arnifix, one can't throw creation out as non scientific because it doesn't conform to a man made set of rules that is Naturalism.

That will do for tonight. I've got flammin work to go to tommoro dangnamit  :disappoin

Reply #351 Posted: April 11, 2006, 12:42:20 am
:violin:

Offline Apostrophe Spacemonkey

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Why has no-one commented on my awesome post, did anyone even bother to read it?

I hoped JK would respond to it. But he didn't.

I also hoped this thread would of moved to page two before anyone could post in it again. But it didn't.

Maybe if spam a whole lot new threads...

Reply #352 Posted: April 11, 2006, 12:53:26 am

Offline Fragin

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Quote from: Space Monkey
Why has no-one commented on my awesome post, did anyone even bother to read it?

Ok i'll comment.

Quote from: Space Monkey
Also, if you were in a computer program, you could not rely on your scientific facts to prove anything, as they would all be meaningless, just constructs of the program. So saying 'I believe this because of this scientific fact’ means nothing on it's own, it can only mean something if you believe that your 'scientific facts' are correct, therefore, you are on the same level as any creationist.

So what if the universe is just somebody elses computer program. We can still discover how it works can't we? Science is a method for finding out how this universe works. Even if the truths that we find are only applicable to this universe and no other, it makes no difference to us - we exist in this universe. The scientific method is the undisputed king when it comes to finding out the way of things.

Creationism is not science. It's culture. The particular creation myth that you happen to believe in is dependant, to a large extent, on where and when you were born (still largely the case even though the world is getting smaller).

If anyone thinks that nothing can be proved and therefore no scientific theory is real - you can perform a simple experiment: put two fingers into a power socket and switch it on. You shouldn't be worried about what might happen because, after all, Electomagnetism is only 'theory'. :laff:

Issac Newton was mentioned before. Because he was a Christian (he actually spent more time studying the scriptures than physics), he struggled with the implications that his discovery of the laws of motion had for his beliefs. I can't think of a better example of the power of the scientific method to find truth than that. With science, you can't simply reject what you have discovered because you don't like the results.

Quote from: Space Monkey
Now, a belief in God falls outside this, as it is because of a persons own spirituality that causes them to believe in a God, and not dependent on facts produced by the world they live in, whether it be real or simulated.

True, and that's why you can be a scientist and believe in God at the same time. You can explore and discover the intricacies of this universe - all the while believing that it was created by God if you want.

Reply #353 Posted: April 11, 2006, 02:00:06 pm
Originally Posted by Templar
If my mother kills someone, then gets out of jail and kills someone again and she is guilty beyond any doubt, then yes I will be sad but she\'d have to go.


Originally Posted by Xt1ncT
You see, you or Pyro doesn\'t get to choose how I define my own words. I do.

Offline laurasaur

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ok. how bout you guys please stop replying so i can actually talk to my bf in the evenings instead of him saring at the computer screen and getting mad at me cos i need the computer for work. plan? i think so.

kthxbye

Reply #354 Posted: April 11, 2006, 02:10:41 pm
:violin:

Offline Fragin

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Reply #355 Posted: April 11, 2006, 02:12:52 pm
Originally Posted by Templar
If my mother kills someone, then gets out of jail and kills someone again and she is guilty beyond any doubt, then yes I will be sad but she\'d have to go.


Originally Posted by Xt1ncT
You see, you or Pyro doesn\'t get to choose how I define my own words. I do.

Offline Steady

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He must sit on there all night coming up with those essays. Geez he's dedicated, you've got to give him that! No hard feelings JayKay... sometimes I'd rather believe in something that much then be lost lol. Not saying I'd ever be a christian.. I'm not going that far lol but you know what I mean

Reply #356 Posted: April 11, 2006, 03:38:32 pm
SOMETIMES I\'M NOT SERIOUS LOL

Offline Apostrophe Spacemonkey

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Steady, you just ruined everything Arifix and I have worked so hard to achieve.

Reply #357 Posted: April 11, 2006, 03:43:03 pm

Offline Steady

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Oh...umm...Gods a f*%&n queer!!

(that better SSM?)

Reply #358 Posted: April 11, 2006, 05:47:19 pm
SOMETIMES I\'M NOT SERIOUS LOL

Offline Apostrophe Spacemonkey

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You idiot Steady!

You just wasted an hour of Atnifix's time.

Reply #359 Posted: April 11, 2006, 05:49:57 pm

Offline Verrt

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Arnifix wasted his own time

there is no reason for this thread to be closed

Reply #360 Posted: April 11, 2006, 06:07:42 pm

Offline Steady

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Quote from: Space Monkey
You idiot Steady!

You just wasted an hour of Atnifix's time.

 He wasted like 5 hours of my time trying to read all the new f#ckn posts he put up!!

Serves him right!

Reply #361 Posted: April 11, 2006, 06:27:10 pm
SOMETIMES I\'M NOT SERIOUS LOL

Offline BerG

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Quote from: Steady
He wasted like 5 hours of my time trying to read all the new f#ckn posts he put up!!

Serves him right!


Ditto.

If I didnt have to spread some more MRS around before giving more to Arnifix, I would have given him a negative for each one.

He would now be at about -86 MRS Points, and Classification C-

Reply #362 Posted: April 11, 2006, 06:30:31 pm

Offline Verrt

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Ok back onto the Religion topic

Reply #363 Posted: April 11, 2006, 06:57:19 pm

Offline Black Heart

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This is getting worse...
Quote
If evolutionists are allowed to change their theories, why aren't creationists allowed to change there theories as well, as new evidence comes along!


Because creationism isn't a theory, no aspect of it is testable. it relates directly to the bible, a document supposedly inerrant. changing the creationist perspective actually requires yet another reinterpretation of the bible, which is already so maligned because of the many changes made to its interpretation (due to being unable to change the bible itself, because of its inerrancy).

Also at this stage I would like to point out that NEW microscopic forms of life are being discovered daily at an astounding rate, the idea that no new genetic code is developing can only be supported by a new earth beleiver. No one knows the timeline that this sort of process takes to occur it could well be 100,000's of years, we have only been able to identify genetic material like this for a decade or two.
Quote
The evidence for a catastrophic flood, landslides, extremely fast burial of millions and billions of animals (especially marine life) are everywhere

explain to me how marine animals are affected by flood. Does this mean that as well as the obvious land based animals on Noahs ark, there were fish, and birds? (i have doubts that even a  super enhanced fully genetically enabled bird would remain in flight for 100 or so days of the flooding.)

When did ice ages occur, ie how many years ago? (the geologic evidence of this is no less beleiveable than flooding.) And more improtantly why does the bible NOT mention them

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Blackheart is correct, there were many civilisations that were aware of the earth being spherical. Possibly some members of the church did (hey, some may still) believe the earth was flat. So what!? Darwin believed in spontaneous generation!

Darwin doesn't count as a civilization. Actually most 'Great thinkers / scientists' had an eccentricity or two.

Quote
What members of a particular group may have incorrectly believed proves very little; the point is, the Bible refers to the earth being spherical, not flat.
Actually they wanted to try gallileo for saying the earth went around the sun, when the bible clearly stated the sun went around the earth (earth being the centre of everything). Flat earth Myth google it. Was invented int he 1700's from memory.

Quote
Fair enough blackheart, given the evidence you have been exposed to, the Noahic flood seems ridiculous. I expect it to be to anyone who has only ever looked into one side of the arguement.
you presume too much. My only exposure has been from the bible, the original and inerrant source of the story, apparently.

Shall we move on to the guy who got swallowed by a whale, lived in it and eventually came out to tell the story? Or shall I just drop the subject. Because creationism isn't a tidy clean package, it has too much dragging it down. And to show how balanced I am I would also state evolution is as incomplete scientifically as creationism is over burdened by nonsense.

What religion can do to your mind...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5464505634137914176&q=trading+spouses

Reply #364 Posted: April 11, 2006, 07:02:42 pm

Offline Simon_NZ

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Quote from: laurasaur


If you assume that I'm hell bent on defending creationism because I'm desperate to protect my "religion", you will have to allow me to make the same claim against you: You are hell bent on defending evolution to protect your belief in Naturalism i.e., the absence of the supernatural. (As it was, I was at pains to point out that I believe in my beliefs because of the evidence for creation, and not the other way around)

The evidence for a catastrophic flood, landslides, extremely fast burial of millions and billions of animals (especially marine life) are everywhere. You want references? (Even you must admit dirtyape, mass graves containing millions of fossils all over the world shouldn't need references.) Read D. Heyler and C.M. Poplin, ‘The Fossils of Montceau-les-Mines’, Scientific American, September, 1988, or http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/26/science/26FOSS.html, or Woodmorappe, J., Studies in Flood Geology, for just a few  random examples of zillions of articles that look a mass deposits of fossils. Read your school geology book dude! Sure, they interpret them using evolutionary assumptions, but thats because they are evolutionists; the mass graves that cover the globe are excellent evidence of catastrophic flood waters and its aftermath. Hell, the grand canyon offers just as much evidence of masses of water retreating in a very short time, as it does for a tiny amount of water over a very long time. Its all about what assumption you apply to the evidence: billions of years, or a few thousand years.

Fair enough blackheart, given the evidence you have been exposed to, the Noahic flood seems ridiculous. I expect it to be to anyone who has only ever looked into one side of the arguement.

As for humans "increased intelligence", there is no evidence to suggest that this is because of an increase in genetic information. The fact that an adopted baby from a primitive tribe in Africa but brought up in a developed country can grow up to gain a Doctorate indicates that its all about using the potential that our brains already have. By my theory (and I freely admit its a theory, based on assumptions) is that the potential of the human brain pre flood could have been much greater.

And yes, the Bible gives painstaking details of the average age pre flood being around 850years, which then decreases within the subsequent 500 years to anywhere between 70 and 120. This is what one would expect given the expected huge downgrade in enviroment the full catastrophy Genesis would predict. Yes, this is all theory based on the assumption that Genesis may be true, so I don't expect you to swallow it as fact. Just as you shouldn't expect me to swallow evolutionist theory which is assumed because one has already assumed evolution to be true.

:disappoin


There are always exceptions to the rule, just because 1000s of fossils form in one single spatial location doesnt mean anything. Logic buddy, the continents shifted, animals shift locations etc. Just because this particular fossil wasn't found in a particular site doesnt prove anything.

Pre flood age of 850 years? your are joking arent you? thats insane. Prove to me that is it is possible at all. Cell degradation, poor living conditions, no health care, hostile enviroment, poor nutrition....And by your logic we were smarter before the flood? where is the evidence of this? currently im sitting on a kick arse rig, can drive my combustion engine and talk to my friends in england using waves passed through the air....from biblical times all I see is cloth skirts. Wheres the fibre optics? If they were smarter than us there should be evidence of it,

No, it doesnt offer evidence. There are substantial differences between fast mass movements of material and slow movements. Climate is very cyclic, many much more logical explanations offer evidence for massive releases of water. I fail to see how retreating water can CRAVE a massive canyon as it goes into the sea. Surely if it was retreating there wouldnt be a river still flowing into the ocean still trying to crave itself into the bedrock. Water doesnt flow against the topography how your explaining it mate.

Reply #365 Posted: April 11, 2006, 07:10:46 pm

Offline Black Heart

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Then theres tectonic plate movement, measurable speed the way the continents will fit if trace back to a super continent. and not within 10,000 years.

Reply #366 Posted: April 11, 2006, 08:41:14 pm

Offline Simon_NZ

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Ice core samples and oxygen isotopes clearly show the world is much older.....

Reply #367 Posted: April 11, 2006, 09:05:39 pm

Offline Apostrophe Spacemonkey

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This thread was made sticky?!

How about you just rip my heart out and feed it to wild pigs!

Reply #368 Posted: April 11, 2006, 09:08:48 pm

Offline Zarkov

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Quote from: Space Monkey
This thread was made sticky?!

How about you just rip my heart out and feed it to wild pigs!


They should have made it slippery so it would disappear forever.

Reply #369 Posted: April 11, 2006, 09:22:28 pm

Offline laurasaur

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Too many issues all at once! You guys must love my long epistles. I promised Laur I wouldn't reply to anything tonight, plus I want to play CS for a change, so you might have to wait for my next reply. Need to realise the frustation by (attempting) to headshot someone.

Reply #370 Posted: April 11, 2006, 11:01:20 pm
:violin:

Offline Arnifix

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Oh jesus fucking christ! YOU BASTARDS! YOU ABSOLUTE BASTARDS!

Also, please note Berg that Off Topic is now more active than it's been in days. Say thank you.

Reply #371 Posted: April 12, 2006, 01:55:27 am

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Offline Simon_NZ

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Quote from: laurasaur
Too many issues all at once! You guys must love my long epistles. I promised Laur I wouldn't reply to anything tonight, plus I want to play CS for a change, so you might have to wait for my next reply. Need to realise the frustation by (attempting) to headshot someone.


Creation has issues, evolution has facts.

Not just evolution, but many scientific facts can disprove various aspects of creationism. And even with all this evidence its so easy for creationists to fall back on the 'god wants it like that' or the 'scientific method is flawed'

Reply #372 Posted: April 12, 2006, 07:42:18 am

Offline `Dirty Heathen

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heathen.

One who adheres to the religion of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.
Such persons considered as a group; the unconverted.



That all I have to say about dat.

Reply #373 Posted: April 12, 2006, 07:48:38 am

Offline Jack_L

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@ Zarkov

interesting use of the reference Decimation.  I think Alexander also pulled the same stunt in India when his army got toey about going home and they had a wee bit of an arguement with him.

Prone to throwing his toys from the cot if they didnt do what he wanted, this particular time go out of hand and he too order every tenth man be put to the sword. this would indicate the romans can thank the greeks for this practice.

I also thought the img was interesting. Romans as a culture shaved their faces until their armies reach gaul and european conscipts began being used for some of the outlying garrisons.

Up till that point, you wouldnt find a Legionnaire with a moustache. the term barbarii refered to facial hair and eventually was used to describe those not of the original Roman Empire or non-citizens.

the little blonde fellow must be a gaulish - maybe his name is asterix?

Reply #374 Posted: April 12, 2006, 12:41:53 pm
People who say that stats don\'t matter are 98% more likely to tell you that size isn\'t important.

Guess what...