Topic: Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

Offline ThaFleastyler

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Quote from: krasher;577540
I must admit you guys prove a point.

Read through the pages and pages of this thread and see who has treated who more respectfully. Sure you don't need religion to be good, but it appears to help. Just as in the research that I quoted a few months back, it is scientifically proven that without a faith morality diminishes. When I say morality I mean a desire to do what is good for the wider community over ones self.

So yeah. Nice job fullas. All most of you do is make narrow pointed attacks based on stereo types that most of you have never actually met in real life. Note that I say 'most'.

So I imagine what you will do now is go and find the one time that I lost my rag and quote it back to me, completely ignoring all of the evidence that the scientists are by far, more rude and disrespectful than the Christians represented in this thread.

Quote for motherf*ckin truth.

How can any Christian respond in the face of such reckless disregard for their opinions?
The posts that I have faced here in the last few days has bordered on blatant hate speech, not a discussion. Again and again I'm confronted with the same arrogant attitude and total lack of respect for me and my beliefs, as well as the beliefs of every other person who came forward as a Christian.

As Krasher said, not everyone has been like that, but my experience in this thread is a letdown time and time again.

Reply #3800 Posted: October 26, 2007, 10:17:51 am

Offline Arnifix

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Reply #3801 Posted: October 26, 2007, 10:27:08 am

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Offline ThaFleastyler

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Quote from: dirtyape;577546
How many Christians think that Muslims are evil terrorists?  How many Christians would take the side of a fellow Christian against a Muslem simply for the fact that they share the same beliefs?

In other news:
How many people here have attacked muslims? Or muslim beliefs?
Answer: none.

:disappoin

Quote from: dirtyape;577546
Religion skews perspectives. It is used to control societies. It is used to placate them, and when required it is used to enrage them.

You keep talking about "religion", but how many times can I say this:
I'M NOT RELIGIOUS.

To me, RELIGION is man-made, based around God.
FAITH (which I have) is between me and God; no man-made laws apply.

Maybe the real truth is that the GOD of today (the media) has convinced a bunch of gullible idiots, who watch too much news and think they're more intelligent than they really are, that Christianity is wrong? Or harmful? Or based on hate? Or money? Or worse?

The sad fact is that you hate upon Christians for simply being Christian.
I repeat: live and let live.

Reply #3802 Posted: October 26, 2007, 10:28:15 am

Offline dirtyape

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Quote from: DDM;577551
How many people without a religion would also believe that muslims are evil terrorists? GOD (read: The Media) has passed down that untruth, and countless amounts of people chose to believe it blindly, much the same as a christian would. So, some of us anti religious folk are just as gullible and stupid.

Not aligning to a specific faith doesnt mean we are immune from believing some seriously dumb shit sometimes. While you yourself Ape would probably look deeper into the topic and get a better understanding, can you honestly say that EVERYONE is going to do the same?


A Christian will believe it with much less coercion, because they essentially believe other religions are lies. And liars are evil. Liars go to hell.

The media is the main propaganda delivery method, true. General propaganda effects all. I never said it didn't, nor did I imply it, please do not bring straw men here. But I do say that religious propaganda is much more effective. When you know exactly what someone believes constructing a effective lie is much easier.

The other way to make propaganda more effective is to make the population more stupid. Then they simply don't know any better. Reducing public education and increase entertainment = dumb society. Combine that with religion and you're in business.

Reply #3803 Posted: October 26, 2007, 10:52:32 am
"The problem with quotes on the internet is that they are difficult to verify." - Abraham Lincoln

Offline Pyromanik

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I might go muslim and start browsing terrorist websites, just to see what happens.

Reply #3804 Posted: October 26, 2007, 11:23:12 am
Everyone needs more Bruce Campbell.

Offline Tandoori

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Quote from: Krasher
it is scientifically proven that without a faith morality diminishes. When I say morality I mean a desire to do what is good for the wider community over ones self.


But modern 'morals', are often determined by religion, so while the study may show "without faith morality diminishes", I'd argue that it shows without faith, what is percieved by the majority as morality diminishes.
I mean, get enough people together to believe that paedophilia is socially acceptable, and it becomes so (Case in point: Ancient Greek practice of Pedestry) .


I do agree with your other points, and Flea's as well, that the atheists of this thread come across as far more rude, however there's more of them then there are Faithful, so who's to say that it's rude, when it's commonplace and accepted by the majority?


In saying that, while we live in a world with traditional morals, it'd be nice to see a little more eloquence on the side of the atheists. For those backing science, use it to prove you're point, don't try and degrade the opposition by paying homage to your superiority complex.

Reply #3805 Posted: October 26, 2007, 11:55:27 am

Offline Simon_NZ

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hahahaha, I laughed.

scientifically proven?

As of 1997 Catholics and Protestants made up 75% of the total US prison population. Judeo-Christian religious types accounted for 83.761%

Not unexpected as a result. Note that atheists, being a moderate proportion of the USA population (1-2%, 2002) are disproportionately less in the prison populations (0.21%).

"Out of convicted rapists, 57% admitted to reading
pornography. 95% admitted to reading the Bible."

Secular humanism is a humanist philosophy that upholds reason, ethics, and justice, and specifically rejects the supernatural and the spiritual as warrants of moral reflection and decision-making. Like other types of humanism, secular humanism is a life stance focusing on the way human beings can lead good and happy lives. More specifically, secular humanism is a eupraxsophy, a non-religious life stance.


How about Divorce rates by religion (U.S.)

Born-again Christians, 27%
Other Christians 24%
Atheists, Agnostics 21%

faith=morals? lies.

Reply #3806 Posted: October 26, 2007, 12:05:08 pm

Offline Tandoori

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Quote from: Simon_NZ;577649
morals = faith? lies.


It can be said however, that many, if not most, of modern morals are derived from religion. At least within western society.

Reply #3807 Posted: October 26, 2007, 12:14:46 pm

Offline Simon_NZ

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mine are not, I don't subscribe to that line of thinking. I rejected the supernatural and the spiritual as warrants of moral reflection and decision-making. I uphold that reason, ethics, and justice are the best way to live your life. Without distinctions between ethnicity or creed. If someone needs help I give it, regardless of their stance on abortion, religion, womans rights etc no matter how contempable I may find that person or their values to be.  

Barna Research Group, Serving the information needs of the church by offering statistics, resources, seminars and custom research on current cultural and spiritual trends.

George Barna, president and founder of Barna Research Group, commented: He said that "We rarely find substantial differences" between the moral behavior of Christians and non-Christians.

Reply #3808 Posted: October 26, 2007, 12:28:02 pm

Offline ThaFleastyler

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Quote from: Simon_NZ;577649
How about Divorce rates by religion (U.S.)

Born-again Christians, 27%
Other Christians 24%
Atheists, Agnostics 21%

Source please?

Reply #3809 Posted: October 26, 2007, 12:28:35 pm

Offline Simon_NZ

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Associated Press computed divorce statistics from data supplied by the U.S. Census Bureau and the National Center for Health, and I just checked them with Excel.

also, http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm.

Reply #3810 Posted: October 26, 2007, 12:43:21 pm

Offline dirtyape

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;577571
In other news:
How many people here have attacked muslims? Or muslim beliefs?
Answer: none.

:disappoin


Whether someone is actively or passively aggressive towards them is irrelevant. It's what you think about it that guides your actions. Or, as the case may be, lack of action.

Some Christians would never beat a Muslim to death, but they would stand around and watch while another Christian beat a Muslim to death.

There is no better example of this than Iraq. Christian America sat around and done nothing to prevent their own country from invading a country and executing the leader - illegally. In fact, most Americans wanted it to happen. When no weapons of MD were found they stayed there. Why? Why haven't they pulled out?


Quote from: ThaFleastyler;577571
You keep talking about "religion", but how many times can I say this:
I'M NOT RELIGIOUS.

To me, RELIGION is man-made, based around God.
FAITH (which I have) is between me and God; no man-made laws apply.

Maybe the real truth is that the GOD of today (the media) has convinced a bunch of gullible idiots, who watch too much news and think they're more intelligent than they really are, that Christianity is wrong? Or harmful? Or based on hate? Or money? Or worse?

The sad fact is that you hate upon Christians for simply being Christian.
I repeat: live and let live.


What makes you think I'm talking about you then? If you are not Christian then I'm not.

If you are Christian then you are religious. If you read the bible for spiritual inspiration then you are religious. If you go to church, believe in the Christian dogma, or a derivative thereof,  then you are most definitely religious. Regardless of what you say.

Religion defines god, e.g. the Christian religion defines god as being intelligent, being omniscient, creating man in his image, and being able to create a human avatar, among other things. The religion defines god as creator, and thus defines existence and reality.

As for the "bunch of gullible idiots" watching the media and forming negative opinions about Christianity, well that could very well be the case. But only if the media done this. But they do not, do they. They leave Christians alone most of the time. You don't hear about the religion of an every day murderer. Unless he was Muslim maybe.

Personally, my opinions of Christianity come not from the media. Instead they come from my research, study, and contemplation. They come from cosmology, physics, geology, history, palaeontology, mythology, and also from the Christian religious doctrine, and most importantly to me - from time spent with Christian followers themselves.

Oh, and no one said that Christianity is based on hate. It's based on love, and compliance, submission to divine authority. Keywords: submission, authority. Sheep are easily led.

Most importantly, I have never said that god does not exist. It's impossible to know. What I have said is that the Christian god, in all his manicial glory, does not exist.

Reply #3811 Posted: October 26, 2007, 02:19:32 pm
"The problem with quotes on the internet is that they are difficult to verify." - Abraham Lincoln

Offline Temp

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Hello Simon it's very nice to see you here again.

Reply #3812 Posted: October 26, 2007, 03:06:20 pm

Offline KiLL3r

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Quote from: Templar;577778
Hello Simon it's very nice to see you here again.


:rnr: better lock up your daughters, and barn yard animals ;)

Reply #3813 Posted: October 26, 2007, 03:12:17 pm


Offline Temp

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Quote from: KiLL3r;577785
:rnr: better lock up your daughters, and barn yard animals ;)


Yes for some unknown reason I do think this place is the better for it with the Sneaker Queen in it.

Anyway, back to God vs Einstein. I still cannot get past the dinosaurs guys, and I know that was about 50 pages back so I'll just keep trolling :sly:

Reply #3814 Posted: October 26, 2007, 03:13:39 pm

Offline cobra

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Quote from: krasher;577540
I must admit you guys prove a point.

Read through the pages and pages of this thread and see who has treated who more respectfully. Sure you don't need religion to be good, but it appears to help. Just as in the research that I quoted a few months back, it is scientifically proven that without a faith morality diminishes. When I say morality I mean a desire to do what is good for the wider community over ones self.

So yeah. Nice job fullas. All most of you do is make narrow pointed attacks based on stereo types that most of you have never actually met in real life. Note that I say 'most'.

So I imagine what you will do now is go and find the one time that I lost my rag and quote it back to me, completely ignoring all of the evidence that the scientists are by far, more rude and disrespectful than the Christians represented in this thread.


um......... This has little basis in reality (again) - the christians have heaped alot of peorsonal attacks on people in this thread and most of the pro-reason people have just attacked christianity, not personal attacks

Reply #3815 Posted: October 26, 2007, 03:37:41 pm

Offline detonator7

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Reply #3816 Posted: October 26, 2007, 03:40:50 pm
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Offline ThaFleastyler

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Quote from: dirtyape;577748
What makes you think I'm talking about you then? If you are not Christian then I'm not.

If you are Christian then you are religious. If you read the bible for spiritual inspiration then you are religious. If you go to church, believe in the Christian dogma, or a derivative thereof,  then you are most definitely religious. Regardless of what you say.

Religion defines god, e.g. the Christian religion defines god as being intelligent, being omniscient, creating man in his image, and being able to create a human avatar, among other things. The religion defines god as creator, and thus defines existence and reality.

As for the "bunch of gullible idiots" watching the media and forming negative opinions about Christianity, well that could very well be the case. But only if the media done this. But they do not, do they. They leave Christians alone most of the time. You don't hear about the religion of an every day murderer. Unless he was Muslim maybe.

Personally, my opinions of Christianity come not from the media. Instead they come from my research, study, and contemplation. They come from cosmology, physics, geology, history, palaeontology, mythology, and also from the Christian religious doctrine, and most importantly to me - from time spent with Christian followers themselves.

Oh, and no one said that Christianity is based on hate. It's based on love, and compliance, submission to divine authority. Keywords: submission, authority. Sheep are easily led.

Most importantly, I have never said that god does not exist. It's impossible to know. What I have said is that the Christian god, in all his manicial glory, does not exist.

The problem with this is that its written under the assumption that God does NOT exist.
My comments are written under the assumption God DOES exist.
Therefore, any chance of agreement between us is doomed from the get-go.

I mean, I could keep defending and defending, and repeating myself over and over that you're perpetuating stereotypes which simply do NOT exist in the modern day Christian church in New Zealand (thus making them irrelevant). I am a Christian, but only because i believe in God and Jesus Christ. I do read the bible for spiritual inspiration, but I wouldn't go out on a whim because "God spoke to me through the bible" - much as in other areas of life, I would think on it, and due to my spiritual beliefs pray about it, and make an informed decision based on all possible angles, outcomes and perspectives. I believe the Bible speaks figuratively for the most part, but is true historical account in some parts as well. I DON'T believe God is a shape or form that is recognizable to humans - for example, when the Bible says we are formed "in His image" I think that is figurative (additionally, in regards to someone saying that Jacob said he had "seen" God, I think thats figurative as well). I don't feel I need to keep justifying my beliefs or explaining myself; I just do it because I feel like those of you attacking Christianity in this thread have a waaaaay wrong impression of what its about. Lastly, I believe that even if you DON'T believe in God, He still believes in you.

TBH, I'm just tired of having to defend my faith in a discussion which was supposed to be Religion vs Science - a topic which has not been fairly covered since the OP.

Reply #3817 Posted: October 26, 2007, 04:09:31 pm

Offline ThaFleastyler

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Quote from: dirtyape;577748
Whether someone is actively or passively aggressive towards them is irrelevant. It's what you think about it that guides your actions. Or, as the case may be, lack of action.

Some Christians would never beat a Muslim to death, but they would stand around and watch while another Christian beat a Muslim to death.

Therein lies the problem - its impossible to say anything about Muslims because as soon as I brought them up, you said "yeah, but Christians have done worse". Give me a good answer! Why hasn't anyone said aything to attack Muslims? Or Hindus? Or Scientologists? Or Brethrens? Or Catholics? Or Mormons? Or Jehovahs Witnesses? Or Bah'ai? Hmmm? I'm genuinely interested!

Every attack on a religion in this thread has been aimed unfairly and squarely at Christianity - from stereotyping all Christians as believing the sun orbits the earth, or that all Christians believe the earth is only 6000 years old, or that all Christians are only in it for the money or whatever. Again and again posters in this thread have written with little regard for the idea that maybe those of us who believe in God are SO 100% SURE OF IT that none of that matters.

Quote from: dirtyape;577748
As for the "bunch of gullible idiots" watching the media and forming negative opinions about Christianity, well that could very well be the case. But only if the media done this. But they do not, do they. They leave Christians alone most of the time. You don't hear about the religion of an every day murderer. Unless he was Muslim maybe.

Evidently you are a blind ape, as well as a dirty ape.

Tell me, when was the last time you saw a POSITIVE news report about any Christian church? When was the last time someone like Brian Tamaki was given a fair go on the news? Why do we only hear about how Christian churches "take" 10% of peoples money (a falsehood), but not hear about the numerous churches up and down this country turning around and using what money they ARE given to try and help there communities? Why do we only hear about the Christian Political Party when they have problems, not when they genuinely have a good idea? (... I'm sure one of them has at some point!) Why do we only hear about Catholic churches when a priest is found to be molesting a child?

Why do we only hear the bad stuff about churches, ape? Why is it ok for the host(s) of the NZ Music Awards 2007 to make fun of Christians throughout the show? Why was the presentation of the Best Gospel Award not televised? Why do no Christian artists get shown on C4 or Juice? Why are Christian and religious TV shows banished to the 5am slot on Prime (the least watched network)?

Honestly, is any other group as WIDELY PERSECUTED as Christians in this day and age (except maybe Muslims)?

Reply #3818 Posted: October 26, 2007, 04:26:34 pm

Offline KiLL3r

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;577838
He still believes in you.



uh oh your forcing your belief on us again :)

Reply #3819 Posted: October 26, 2007, 04:27:24 pm


Offline cobra

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;577854

Honestly, is any other group as WIDELY PERSECUTED as Christians in this day and age (except maybe Muslims)?


ZOMG - chrisitain are not persecuted - damn Christians and there need to feel like martyrs - If you want a group more widely persecuted how about homosexuals by christians?

Reply #3820 Posted: October 26, 2007, 04:35:53 pm

Offline KiLL3r

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;577854

Honestly, is any other group as WIDELY PERSECUTED as Christians in this day and age (except maybe Muslims)?


well thats seriously retarded. Even if they were the most persecuted which they arnt, the past few years of christian persecution wouldnt count for the thousands of years where christians have done everything possible to persecute others

Reply #3821 Posted: October 26, 2007, 04:41:17 pm


Offline ThaFleastyler

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Quote from: cobra;577867
ZOMG - chrisitain are not persecuted - damn Christians and there need to feel like martyrs - If you want a group more widely persecuted how about homosexuals by christians?


Quote from: KiLL3r;577874
well thats seriously retarded. Even if they were the most persecuted which they arnt, the past few years of christian persecution wouldnt count for the thousands of years where christians have done everything possible to persecute others

Notice I said as WIDELY persecuted.

Sure, homosexuals may be persecuted by some Christians.
Christians are persecuted by everybody EXCEPT other Christians.

Reply #3822 Posted: October 26, 2007, 04:51:41 pm

Offline cobra

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;577888
Notice I said as WIDELY persecuted.

Sure, homosexuals may be persecuted by some Christians.
Christians are persecuted by everybody EXCEPT other Christians.


can you give an example where you have been persecuted?

Reply #3823 Posted: October 26, 2007, 04:53:33 pm

Offline KiLL3r

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;577888
Notice I said as WIDELY persecuted.

Sure, homosexuals may be persecuted by some Christians.
Christians are persecuted by everybody EXCEPT other Christians.


thats because christianity is the largest religion that openly tries to force their beliefs on everyone

Reply #3824 Posted: October 26, 2007, 04:53:33 pm