Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Black Heart]

Well TV in one study is filled with violence that desensitises us, then another study TV makes us unmotivated slobs, couch potatoes.

if only they'd thought about context before deciding to do a study.

[KiLL3r]

Playing violent video games desensitizes players to real-world violence.

It’s an oft-repeated mantra among video game critics like Lt. Col. Dave Grossman and Miami attorney Jack Thompson.

But new research from Finland casts doubt on the desensitization theory. As reported by Shacknews, a team of researchers in Helsinki found that, rather than exulting, gamers became angry and anxious after killing an opposing character in James Bond 007: NightFire. Perhaps even more surprisingly, players had a positive response to their own character’s death.

The study, The Psychophysiology of James Bond: Phasic Emotional Responses to Violent Video Game Events tested 36 young adults, monitoring physiological data in synch with game play action. From the report:

    From this perspective, the fact that wounding or killing the opponent elicited negative, not positive, emotional responses might be reassuring… Given that the player knows that it is only a game, events that, in the real world, are perceived as threatening may be perceived as positively challenging…

    There was no evidence for desensitization of emotional responses as a function of repeated exposures to violent game events…

So, why do players react positively to their own character’s demise? The study authors speculate that the character’s death represents a respite from the tension of playing. The authors found a similar “tension break” effect in a 2005 study using a non-violent game, Super Monkey Ball 2.


http://content.apa.org/journals/emo/8/1/114

[KiLL3r]

but we are going far offtopic so back to the religious debate.


so what about dinosaurs? Christians say they existed at the same time as humans and were on the ark so how did they all become extinct then?

[Ngati_Grim]

so what about dinosaurs? Christians say they existed at the same time as humans and were on the ark so how did they all become extinct then?

As a Geologist, with a Palaeontological bent, I should answer this, but the sheer stupidity of the question means I won't, beyond the supplement below.

Basically, the MEE (Mass Extinction Episode) commonly known as the K/T (Cretaceous/Tertiary) boundary extinction event (Bolide impact, mass Volcanism, Climate Change, Genetic collapse etc etc) was the death-knell for the Dinosaurs, though you do have a lot of follow through, with animals such as the Tuatara, as well as the rise of Aves.
Mammals were able to exploit the niches left by the dinosaurs.

Basically, if Christians believe this then they are exceedingly stupid, as it flies in the face of a weight of evidence.

'nuff sed.

[philo-sofa]

but we are going far offtopic so back to the religious debate.


so what about dinosaurs? Christians say they existed at the same time as humans and were on the ark so how did they all become extinct then?

No, no the dinsosaurs couldn't fit on the Ark and so were killed by the flood.  Hence the appearance of their fossils in mountains - they reatreated to higher ground till there was none, then all died  - some ending in the higher ranges, some in what were plains.  Also - God pushed them all into the rock at some point.

To be fair I think it's still only a reasonably small minority of Christians who believe this offensive theory fitting 'facts' nonsense.

Basically, the MEE (Mass Extinction Episode) commonly known as the K/T (Cretaceous/Tertiary) boundary extinction event (Bolide impact, mass Volcanism, Climate Change, Genetic collapse etc etc) was the death-knell for the Dinosaurs, though you do have a lot of follow through, with animals such as the Tuatara, as well as the rise of Aves.
Mammals were able to exploit the niches left by the dinosaurs.

Is it fairly much accepted that the Yucatan peninsula impact was behind the K/T extinction?

[Ngati_Grim]

Is it fairly much accepted that the Yucatan peninsula impact was behind the K/T extinction?

Yep, that's correct, though there may have been  multiple impacts, but I'll have to reread some journals to find the info.

As an aside, there are sections in New Zealand that have helped piece together the puzzle of the impact. Particularly in Woodside Creek, Flaxbourne River, Mead Stream and Waipara Gorge, there are decent K/T boundary outcrops and Iridium has been obtained from these sites. Must have been a massive blast, and the occurance of global wildfires as well, means quite a cataclysmic event!

Still not as large as the Permo-Triassic Extinction Event though!

[ThaFleastyler]

Christians say they existed at the same time as humans and were on the ark so how did they all become extinct then?

Another arrogant assumption.

As we've covered before, not all Christians believe everything. Particularly, very few believe what you seem to think they believe. I'm not saying any more on the topic - go back 50-60 pages and you'll find the last instance of me getting frustrated at yet another arrogant assumption.


In fact, heres a better question: what makes any of you such experts on what Christians believe? Have you been in a church for long enough to figure out what every Christian believes? Have you studied theology? Have you read a large amount of Christian literature? Do you listen to Christian podcasts or sermons? Heck, do you even know any Christians personally? Could you even locate a church in your town?

It must be very comfortable to sit back on the other side of the intertubes and pass judgment on Christianity, God, organised religion and those who are involved in it, and make wide, sweeping assumptions on Christian beliefs, without ever spending time listening to Christian people explain how it is.


The truth is, I've been at my church for nearly 5 years now and NOT ONCE have I heard ANY preacher, speaker or pastor mention whether dinosaurs actually existed - frankly, it makes not a bit of difference to my personal belief in God. Similarly, at my CHRISTIAN church, the message and what we can learn from a biblical story is infinitely more important than whether or not the story actually occurred. At the end of the day, the age of the earth doesn't effect whether I believe in God or not; whether evolution created us or whether God created us doesn't changewhether I think He is real; and whether the dinosaurs existed doesn't, and will never, cast any shadow of a doubt on my faith.

Obviously dinosaurs exist, and obviously humans exist - I personally don't believe they existed together, but its not like the entire Christian faith hangs on this one fact. I don't stay awake at night worrying about this kind of thing. My priority is to believe in God, try and serve my community as well as I can, and try and make this world a better place if for no other reason than so it's a better place for my daughter to grow up in - and frankly, whether God exists or not, the Christian church seems to me to be a place that can at least help achieve that.


Heres one serious question for you KiLL3r (Cobra, you could join in too):
Why do you hate the Christian faith so much? The majority of your posts aren't so much arguing the existence of God as they are striking out at those who believe in Him.

[KiLL3r]

Basically, if Christians believe this then they are exceedingly stupid, as it flies in the face of a weight of evidence.

you obviously havnt seen the intelligent design museum in the USA

[KiLL3r]

In fact, heres a better question: what makes any of you such experts on what Christians believe? Have you been in a church for long enough to figure out what every Christian believes? Have you studied theology? Have you read a large amount of Christian literature? Do you listen to Christian podcasts or sermons? Heck, do you even know any Christians personally? Could you even locate a church in your town?

I went to a catholic schools for 4 years and had RE classes twice a week. that covers ur first two.
The Bible count as christian literature?
Ive listened to and seen a few brainwashing sermons on the morning religious shows.
I have a gamer friend who lives down the road from me who i lan with quite often.
And the nearest chruch is right around the corner from me.


Another arrogant assumption Flea?

Heres one serious question for you KiLL3r (Cobra, you could join in too):
Why do you hate the Christian faith so much? The majority of your posts aren't so much arguing the existence of God as they are striking out at those who believe in Him.

I dont hate the Christian faith, i hate all religions. They abuse peoples trust and faith. Religion is responsible for more deaths throughout the entirety of history, more than any other single idea ever could. They also claim a message of tolerance yet still send people round to your house to bother you with their message of hate. Not to mention you ultimate message of eternal damnation if you don't believe in your God.


If you truly dont think religions is dangerous just look at the Sept11 attacks. When anyone thinks that their god, and oh yes you have exactly the same god as muslims, can give them the right and the self righteousness to throw away their lives and others for their own twisted agenda, then you are seriously deluded.

Religions have been dividing this world for thousands of years for their own personal agenda, by taking in moronic followers who they constantly keep lying to in order to keep making a profit.

I also find it ironic that you call me arrogant yet im not the one who believes some greater being has nothing better to do but look out myself. I also find it moronic that you claim persecution against christians yet not bat and eye to the countless years of persecutions against anyone not believing in their faith by the church.

[Arnifix]

whats "risky behaviour" ?

I can remember an excellent Penny-Arcade podcast in which they discuss a study that was done on video gamers. It was reported in the media as "video games encourage drug abuse".

The actual study was conducted with a small number of college students. Some played GTA # and some played Simpsons: Hit & Run. The ones who played GTA apparently had a more relaxed attitude towards drug use after playing, and were less co-operative in a teamwork exercise.

How unusual, that college students had permissive attitudes towards drugs. Oh no!

Flea: Regarding what Christians believe. I base much of the information on stuff I have seen or heard about.

Reasons I dislike Christianity:

Indoctrination is the main one. For example, at high school we were frequently subjected to Christian indoctrination techniques, both forced in assemblies, or via "Christian Club" events. The first ones were normally less offensive, but the christian club bullshit was insane. They'd bribe people into coming with free food, then shut the doors and pretty much require you to stay and listen. As per the norm it was out with the dodgy science that "proved" that the earth was only so many thousand years old and dinosaur bones were fake and that elvis was alive and living in a trailer park or whatever. It is sickening and repulsive to me that some Christians go so far to convert others to their religion, through what are essentially lies.

I don't dislike other religions as much, primarily because I have to put up with less of their bullshit. Some religions I like include Taoism, Buddhism and Shinto. Their ideas are positively refreshing in a modern world. I remember hearing about (I think it was) an important Buddhist monk saying in regards to a Buddhist world view, "If it turns out to be false, then we will strive to learn the truth of the matter."

[ThaFleastyler]

I went to a catholic schools for 4 years and had RE classes twice a week. that covers ur first two.

Frankly, the Catholic church is a bad example of faith. The Christian faith is almost as different from Catholicism as it is from Agnosticism.

I dont hate the Christian faith, i hate all religions. They abuse peoples trust and faith. Religion is responsible for more deaths throughout the entirety of history, more than any other single idea ever could. They also claim a message of tolerance yet still send people round to your house to bother you with their message of hate. Not to mention you ultimate message of eternal damnation if you don't believe in your God.


If you truly dont think religions is dangerous just look at the Sept11 attacks. When anyone thinks that their god, and oh yes you have exactly the same god as muslims, can give them the right and the self righteousness to throw away their lives and others for their own twisted agenda, then you are seriously deluded.

Religions have been dividing this world for thousands of years for their own personal agenda, by taking in moronic followers who they constantly keep lying to in order to keep making a profit.

I also find it ironic that you call me arrogant yet im not the one who believes some greater being has nothing better to do but look out myself. I also find it moronic that you claim persecution against christians yet not bat and eye to the countless years of persecutions against anyone not believing in their faith by the church.

I don't find it ironic at all. True Christian faith, and the bible, both preach of understanding non-believers and accepting their choice to not believe.

For a start, Christianity is not a religion - at least, not in the same sense that Catholicism is a religion. You can't presume that because you know about Catholicism you know about Christianity, because frankly, you don't. Claiming that they take advantage of peoples trust and faith is also fallacious - in my Catholic upbringing until I was 14, and in my own time at church (nearly 5 years), I have NEVER seen anything that would lead me to believe this.

As for people that come round to your house, my church doesn't do this, nor does any "Christian" church I know of - this is a practice almost exclusively of Mormon and Jehovas Witness church, and even then its done because they believe that you are going to hell and they don't want that to happen (what you consider annoying is actually an act of love). I've mentioned before that I disagree with this tactic.

Your claim that I have the same God as Muslims is nothing more than generaliation on your part - the God I believe in is a God of love, understanding, tolerance and peace, not of destruction. The New Testament message is one of love, understanding, tolerance and peace. The average Muslim and I, we serve different Gods, but if its easier for you to lump me in with Muslims, so be it. I will never agree with killing oneself or others to spread a religious message.

Yes, some of what you speak of occurs (for example, personal agendas, people being taken advantage of, betrayal of trust, greed, etc etc), but those things happen in all areas of human society - and religion is one of those areas. In fact, those things are the opposite of what the Christian faith is about, and the reason you even know its happening in the Christian faith is because of those churches weeding out the problems and making them public, in order to maintain transparency.

Your biggest problem, K, is that you lump all religions in together, which isn't fair on any of the religions. Corruption is prevalent in any large organisation (for example, government) and large, organized religions are as susceptible to it as any other organisation. Christian churches, on the other hand, are largely decentralised, relying on the sense of community and focusing on what they can do at a local level - in most of these churches, problems like corrupt folks and other "bad apples" are dealt with in a civilised manner.


Finally, to be completely honest, your opinion on "religions" and particularly on Christianity (for example that they take "in moronic followers who they constantly keep lying to in order to keep making a profit") is pretty much worthless to me - I feel like I've done my best to be understanding and appreciate the different points of view in this thread, and all I've gotten in return is to be told that what I believe is bullshit (thanks Cobra, by the way), and have every comment I've made answered with a swift "religions fuck people over" (which is a pointless and never-ending argument). I don't know how many times I've posted some variation of the above, but it just seems like no matter what I say, the same old stereotypes and generalisations keep coming up again and again and again (and again).

Until you, and some of the others here like you, can stop spouting off blatant hate-speech against people like me, I simply can't respect anything you have to say.

[KiLL3r]

Im not calling you one but im sure the nazis thought what they were doing was the right thing also.

When your on the inside of course everything is going to look right in your perspective. No doubt if you were Hindu,Buddhist, muslim instead of a christian you'd still feel the same way about your faith and think its doing the right thing.

[Black Heart]

I also find it ironic that you call me arrogant yet im not the one who believes some greater being has nothing better to do but look out myself. I also find it moronic that you claim persecution against christians yet not bat and eye to the countless years of persecutions against anyone not believing in their faith by the church.

Thats not irony, it's hypocrisy.

[Scunner]

Your claim that I have the same God as Muslims is nothing more than generaliation on your part - the God I believe in is a God of love, understanding, tolerance and peace, not of destruction. The New Testament message is one of love, understanding, tolerance and peace. The average Muslim and I, we serve different Gods, but if its easier for you to lump me in with Muslims, so be it. I will never agree with killing oneself or others to spread a religious message.

I've had a good read so far in this thread but I take issue with this paragraph. You have claimed tolerance of other religions but yet you are basically saying here that Muslims serve an evil, destructive god. You are doing exactly what you are acusing Killer of doing and generalising a whole religion based on the views and actions of the extremist parts of it, without knowing much about the religion itself. Islam does not teach violence or hate against other, just as Christianity does not, but there are people who interpret it that way to use it as an excuse. Should I base my opinion on Christianity based on the views and actions of the KKK?

[cobra]

Heres one serious question for you KiLL3r (Cobra, you could join in too):
Why do you hate the Christian faith so much? The majority of your posts aren't so much arguing the existence of God as they are striking out at those who believe in Him.

i dont argue about the existence of god because it's a non-event, there is no reason to believe in a space fairy except brainwashing as a kid, i dont care that you have ignorant beliefs (for instance not believing in human evolution) - i do care that you promote hate campaigns against homosexuals and prostitutes, promote antiscience and anti freedom campaigns  - if you kept your hatred to yourselves i wouldn't care so much

i have asked before, but you continued your campaign of wilful ignorance and didn't answer - why do you promote rightwing views when jesus, by all accounts, was leftwing

[detonator7]

(for instance not believing in human evolution)

isnt that still just a theory?

[KiLL3r]

isnt that still just a theory?

yes its a scientific theory which means it can change as more evidence arises to prove or disprove it.

Unlike religion which will either hide evidence to the contrary or ridicule the person who discovered it until they have no credibility.
Unless of course it supports their argument in which case it will be spread around the world as evidence of god

[philo-sofa]

isnt that still just a theory?

No it's a scientific fact supported by evidence, Kill3r is mistaken on this.  Creationists have put what appears to be endless effort into making up an alternative on the fly, and into disproving evolution itself, both of which have been utterly rejected case-by-case by scientists.  The end goal for the Intelligent Design/Creationist front has been to then adopt a policy of "teaching the controversy" (of which there is none is terms of scientific fact) and push the idea of this 'controversy' they generated into the public consciousness. Particularly with the goal of teaching their (and remember here I'm by far the most un-anti religios people Atheist here) contemptible, baseless, bullshit in schools under the subject heading 'science' in one of the most blatant regressions of education and knowledge since the enlightenment.

So yeah, it's scientific fact, if you choose to believe in God, either accept the Bible wasnt quite made for literal reading, or assume that evolution is a mechanism that operates in the universe as God set it up, like atoms or kinetics, that happens one way or the other  This also requires that God may (it this isn't all a little convoluted) have made the Universe appear much older than it is.  Because evolution is real - why the heck else do you think we have a spleen, a coccyx or the innate ability to climb trees?

[KiLL3r]

No it's a scientific fact supported by evidence, Kill3r is mistaken on this.  Creationists have put what appears to be endless effort into making up an alternative on the fly, and into disproving evolution itself, both of which have been utterly rejected case-by-case by scientists.  The end goal for the Intelligent Design/Creationist front has been to then adopt a policy of "teaching the controversy" (of which there is none is terms of scientific fact) and push the idea of this 'controversy' they generated into the public consciousness. Particularly with the goal of teaching their (and remember here I'm by far the most un-anti religios people Atheist here) contemptible, baseless, bullshit in schools under the subject heading 'science' in one of the most blatant regressions of education and knowledge since the enlightenment.

So yeah, it's scientific fact, if you choose to believe in God, either accept the Bible wasnt quite made for literal reading, or assume that evolution is a mechanism that operates in the universe as God set it up, like atoms or kinetics, that happens one way or the other  This also requires that God may (it this isn't all a little convoluted) have made the Universe appear much older than it is.  Because evolution is real - why the heck else do you think we have a spleen, a coccyx or the innate ability to climb trees?

Sorry your mistaken on this and right at the same time

A "fact" in science is an observation.    
A "theory" in science is an explanation of the observations.

evolutions is a fact and a theory. kinda crazy but yeh. And for the nay sayers, Gravity is the same a fact and a theory yet we know that gravity exists :sunnies:

[detonator7]

umm in your sig you say its a theory

[detonator7]

No it's a scientific fact

k i must of just read your sig wrong

[cnvrt02]

I've had a good read so far in this thread but I take issue with this paragraph. You have claimed tolerance of other religions but yet you are basically saying here that Muslims serve an evil, destructive god. You are doing exactly what you are acusing Killer of doing and generalising a whole religion based on the views and actions of the extremist parts of it, without knowing much about the religion itself. Islam does not teach violence or hate against other, just as Christianity does not, but there are people who interpret it that way to use it as an excuse. Should I base my opinion on Christianity based on the views and actions of the KKK?

did you not see the .? he started a new sentence.

i am an Atheist my self, but i really hate the hypocrites in this thread, i don't attack the religion, as i live by the saying "live and let live" as most of you don't seem to understand the concept.

[Black Heart]

did you not see the .? he started a new sentence.

i am an Atheist my self, but i really hate the hypocrites in this thread, i don't attack the religion, as i live by the saying "live and let live" as most of you don't seem to understand the concept.

live and let live doesn't work. people like revenge.

[KiLL3r]

did you not see the .? he started a new sentence.

i am an Atheist my self, but i really hate the hypocrites in this thread, i don't attack the religion, as i live by the saying "live and let live" as most of you don't seem to understand the concept.

you strike me as a deathbed repenter for some reason

[Tiwaking!]

Because evolution is real - why the heck else do you think we have a spleen, a coccyx or the innate ability to climb trees?

Psst. You forgot about endogenous retroviral DNA