Topic: Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

Offline Tiwaking!

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Quote from: spliff;667770
according to scientists and their research, a lot of evolution is indeed random.

Go away and do some more research into what you're talking about then come back :)

If by 'random' you mean "random if you ignore deconstraint, weak linkage, compartmentation and exploratory processes" and only focus on mutation, then yes. Evolution is random

Reply #4225 Posted: March 01, 2008, 09:10:31 pm
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Offline cobra

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Quote from: spliff;667770
according to scientists and their research, a lot of evolution is indeed random.

Go away and do some more research into what you're talking about then come back :)


mutations, one of the driving forces of evolution is random - but that doesn't make evolution random - you need to do your research, then you can come back

Reply #4226 Posted: March 01, 2008, 09:17:00 pm

Offline KiLL3r

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Quote from: krasher;667749
There are many unanswered questions in life that science has not been able to answer. One of them is....how did you come to believe that you know everything?

That is the danger of science IMO. Many people have been tricked into thinking that they know something as fact when it is in fact, still only theory. At least I know that what I 'know' is based on faith.

without science we would still be living in the dark ages. unless of course you want to go back to the times were women were drowned and burned as witches and people had holes drilled in their heads to release the devil. screw getting a headache in those days because it might just be the devil!

And i just love the part how science is tricking people. It does nothing of the sorts. Science allows people to make up their own minds based on the evidence and those beliefs are open to change at anytime unlike your "faith" which is nothing more than selfish hope for something after death.

Reply #4227 Posted: March 01, 2008, 09:36:00 pm


Offline krasher

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Quote from: KiLL3r;667794
without science we would still be living in the dark ages. unless of course you want to go back to the times were women were drowned and burned as witches and people had holes drilled in their heads to release the devil. screw getting a headache in those days because it might just be the devil!

And i just love the part how science is tricking people. It does nothing of the sorts. Science allows people to make up their own minds based on the evidence and those beliefs are open to change at anytime unlike your "faith" which is nothing more than selfish hope for something after death.
Drug companies use science to 'prove' their drugs are safe so they can sell their drugs. There are several examples of science ending up being quite wrong in these cases. It still takes faith to believe what science tells you.

Or we can talk about the dark ages of science, when doctors (of medical science) would tell you to put your baby in a bath of ice when it had a fever. People did lots of stupid things in the old days...

Killer, you are just plain ignorant and insulting in your comments. Your hate does nothing but prove to me that there must be a God. Otherwise you would have nothing to hate.

What is so selfish about the hope of life after death. It's not like its an exclusive party and your not invited.

Reply #4228 Posted: March 01, 2008, 10:56:02 pm
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Offline krasher

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" Brain power: Scientists at the Institute for Animal Health in Edinburgh secured a £200,000 government grant to find out whether BSE has jumped the "species barrier" from cows into sheep. An inquiry is now under way after it was found that scientists had been mistakenly testing cattle brains instead of sheep brains for five years.

· Scientific Watergate: The US National Institutes of Health investigatory panel found the immunologist Thereza Imanishi-Kari had fabricated data in a 1986 research paper authored with the Nobel prize winner David Baltimore. The findings claimed in the paper promised a breakthrough for genetic modification of the immune system.

· Mein bumph: Oxbridge historian Hugh Trevor-Roper authenticated the Hitler Diaries, unveiled as an exclusive by the German-based Stern magazine. The diaries were later exposed as a hoax.

· Cold Fusion: In 1989 chemists Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischman, of the University of Utah, claimed to have solved the world's energy problems by discovering cold fusion. However, no-one has since been able to replicate their findings of nuclear fusion in heavy water.

· Hubble Space Telescope: Nasa scientists launched the Hubble telescope to create a lens 10 to 20 times more powerful than those based on earth. A gross design error in the main mirror was discovered immediately after launch in April 1990. Hundreds of millions of pounds were needed for the astronaut repair of the mirror.

· N-rays: A French physicist, René Blondlot, claimed to have discovered a new type of radiation, shortly after Roentgen had discovered X-rays. American physicist Robert Wood, however, revealed that N-rays were little more than a delusion. Wood removed the prism from the N-ray detection device, without which the machine couldn't work. Yet, Blondlot's assistant still claimed he found N-rays.

· Academic standards: Cyril Burt, the 1960s guru of British psychology, produced research into the intelligence of identical twins which, among other findings, led to the assertions that academic standards were falling. Years later the statistics were found to be "too perfect" and it was discovered the twins - and even the researcher alleged to have carried out the work - never existed.

· Piltdown man: In 1913 an ape's jaw with a canine tooth worn down like a human's was uncovered at a site near Piltdown. British paleoanthropologists came to accept the idea that the fossil remains belonged to a single creature who had a human cranium and an ape's jaw - offering the missing link between apes and humans in the evolutionary chain. In 1953, Piltdown 'man' was exposed as a forgery. The skull was modern and the teeth on the ape's jaw had been filed down.

· Alchemy: - Sir Isaac Newton - the scientist who single-handedly created the foundations of modern day physics had a little known obsession with alchemy, and was convinced for much of his life that he would be able to change base metals into gold. Such a discovery would have helped with his later job as master of the mint, but never materialised.

· Flat Earth: - even though Christopher Columbus gave flat earth theorists a reason to think twice, there are still flat earth societies where people propose (and prove) elaborate explanations for why the world actually is shaped like a pancake. "

Reply #4229 Posted: March 01, 2008, 11:08:04 pm
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Offline cobra

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Quote from: krasher;667825
" Brain power: Scientists at the Institute for Animal Health in Edinburgh secured a £200,000 government grant to find out whether BSE has jumped the "species barrier" from cows into sheep. An inquiry is now under way after it was found that scientists had been mistakenly testing cattle brains instead of sheep brains for five years.

· Scientific Watergate: The US National Institutes of Health investigatory panel found the immunologist Thereza Imanishi-Kari had fabricated data in a 1986 research paper authored with the Nobel prize winner David Baltimore. The findings claimed in the paper promised a breakthrough for genetic modification of the immune system.

· Mein bumph: Oxbridge historian Hugh Trevor-Roper authenticated the Hitler Diaries, unveiled as an exclusive by the German-based Stern magazine. The diaries were later exposed as a hoax.

· Cold Fusion: In 1989 chemists Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischman, of the University of Utah, claimed to have solved the world's energy problems by discovering cold fusion. However, no-one has since been able to replicate their findings of nuclear fusion in heavy water.

· Hubble Space Telescope: Nasa scientists launched the Hubble telescope to create a lens 10 to 20 times more powerful than those based on earth. A gross design error in the main mirror was discovered immediately after launch in April 1990. Hundreds of millions of pounds were needed for the astronaut repair of the mirror.

· N-rays: A French physicist, René Blondlot, claimed to have discovered a new type of radiation, shortly after Roentgen had discovered X-rays. American physicist Robert Wood, however, revealed that N-rays were little more than a delusion. Wood removed the prism from the N-ray detection device, without which the machine couldn't work. Yet, Blondlot's assistant still claimed he found N-rays.

· Academic standards: Cyril Burt, the 1960s guru of British psychology, produced research into the intelligence of identical twins which, among other findings, led to the assertions that academic standards were falling. Years later the statistics were found to be "too perfect" and it was discovered the twins - and even the researcher alleged to have carried out the work - never existed.

· Piltdown man: In 1913 an ape's jaw with a canine tooth worn down like a human's was uncovered at a site near Piltdown. British paleoanthropologists came to accept the idea that the fossil remains belonged to a single creature who had a human cranium and an ape's jaw - offering the missing link between apes and humans in the evolutionary chain. In 1953, Piltdown 'man' was exposed as a forgery. The skull was modern and the teeth on the ape's jaw had been filed down.

· Alchemy: - Sir Isaac Newton - the scientist who single-handedly created the foundations of modern day physics had a little known obsession with alchemy, and was convinced for much of his life that he would be able to change base metals into gold. Such a discovery would have helped with his later job as master of the mint, but never materialised.

· Flat Earth: - even though Christopher Columbus gave flat earth theorists a reason to think twice, there are still flat earth societies where people propose (and prove) elaborate explanations for why the world actually is shaped like a pancake. "


you are redisplaying your total ignorance of science, giving examples of when science was wrong is totally meaningless - science moves on and accepts new evidence and reforms it's views

don't know why you included a historian and a psychologist, reading not your strong suit?

science is not like christianity - when new evidence arises it is adopted to improve our over all world view rather then the christian approach which involves villainizing the people and releasing lies and propaganda against them

Reply #4230 Posted: March 01, 2008, 11:48:21 pm

Offline krasher

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The effects of Religion on Physical and Mental Health - Harold G. Koenig, MD

A book I found whilst doing some research on the topic. This is scientific research to establish the 'truth' about the above topic.

Basically, this is science getting pwnd by science.

Summary
Cross-sectional, longitudinal, and intervention studies have demonstrated the positive effects for religious belief and practice on both mental and physical health.

http://books.google.co.nz/books?hl=en&lr=&id=itxfXK1yrbwC&oi=fnd&pg=PR9&dq=
christianity+mental+health+statistics&ots=KmKvFMUZzr&sig=jbIY-DTZtXp1qT-x6nkHy1s5hTo#PPA111,M1

Reply #4231 Posted: March 01, 2008, 11:52:54 pm
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Offline nick247

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I like what slim shot saids about spirituality. Spirituality is not at war with science, in fact it is a very seperate thing that has alot to do with faith and the belief in something more to life, or perhaps the overall goodness of life in general

I am a big fan of general spirituality,i like the idea that yeah there could be something out there, but more the idea that life in general is a really good thing and to feel the rain on your face, be able to look over the harbour on a sunny day, or even to feel pain is a really good thing, something that should be cherished and valued

BUT

Religion, in the sense of the institutional religions of this world, GOES TOO FAR. When they act like they are the supreme leaders of society, like they have all the answers to how people should live their lives THEY GO TOO FAR.

Religion CANNOT say how we should live our lives. they do not have those answers.......because those answers require a factual logical basis.

Its one thing to claim the existance of a god, IT IS A VERY DIFFERENT THING TO CLAIM WHAT GOD WOULD WANT

Reply #4232 Posted: March 02, 2008, 01:23:25 am

Offline -{LD}-Nappy

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what do other religions think of atheism?

Reply #4233 Posted: March 02, 2008, 01:36:35 am

Offline cobra

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Quote from: krasher;667852
The effects of Religion on Physical and Mental Health - Harold G. Koenig, MD

A book I found whilst doing some research on the topic. This is scientific research to establish the 'truth' about the above topic.

Basically, this is science getting pwnd by science.

Summary
Cross-sectional, longitudinal, and intervention studies have demonstrated the positive effects for religious belief and practice on both mental and physical health.

http://books.google.co.nz/books?hl=en&lr=&id=itxfXK1yrbwC&oi=fnd&pg=PR9&dq=
christianity+mental+health+statistics&ots=KmKvFMUZzr&sig=jbIY-DTZtXp1qT-x6nkHy1s5hTo#PPA111,M1


one. did you read the book?


two. how is it science "pwning" science - science is not antireligion, just anti ignorance

three. it was written by a psychologist - psychology is not a science

Reply #4234 Posted: March 02, 2008, 01:56:01 am

Offline krasher

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Quote from: nick247;667870
I like what slim shot saids about spirituality. Spirituality is not at war with science, in fact it is a very seperate thing that has alot to do with faith and the belief in something more to life, or perhaps the overall goodness of life in general.........
Yeah, I don't think that an attitude of being at war is useful.  I am not sure if or why psychology is not considered a science - is that everyone or just cobra? Psychology is the study of the psyche as far as I can tell - and the study is done via what I thought was scientific methods. The complexity lies in that people are pretty hard to measure which is why when it comes to people and science....history is riddled with mistakes. That is ok, but it's how it is. Just like Christianity - Christian faith in its efforts to help people has made mistakes, and that's ok. Nobody's perfect right?

Also, just like the book said, people who are mentally unwell will USE Religion to get what they want, and I think it is pretty clear that science has been used selfishly throughout history also. Have a look at the drug companies. It doesn't mean science should be dismissed, it means it needs to be used carefully. The same caution needs to be taken to issues of faith.

It is blanket immature thinking that just says that religion has done dumb things so it all sucks and they all suck. If you are familiar with Piage's theories on cognitive development, it appears that some people here are displaying that they are still stuck at the 'concrete' stage and have not matured into 'formal' thinking. Yes I am talking about you cobra and killer. Probably some others but its your inability to think properly that pisses me off the most.

The information supplied by your quote there is discounted in the book that I quoted as it contains only the opinions of some professionals who are only ever going to see the negative side of religion. Proper research has turned out results that are the opposite. Your artical cites no actual research.

Yes I read enough of that book to understand the conclusion clearly. The conclusion from MUCH research says that Christianity in its moderate most common form has a positive correlation with mental health. So to all you people who say that it is bad for society, you might want to think again, because surely the health of society is somewhat a reflection of the mental health of the individuals that form it.

Reply #4235 Posted: March 02, 2008, 09:43:29 am
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Offline Tiwaking!

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Quote from: -{LD}-Nappy;667872
what do other religions think of atheism?

4162 posts and finally someone asks!

Islam
It all depends on the stance of the person being asked. For example: The Koran explicitly states that Atheists should be killed(like the Jews). However, many moderate(Sunni and surprisingly enough Iran) Islamic scholars would point out that:

a) Atheists possess no religion and therefore should be converted or left alone
b) Atheists cannot proselytize or evangelize and therefore are not a threat

Buddhism
Are Atheists

Hinduism
Has a God who looks after Atheists. However, Vedic Hinduism is more charismatic so priests generate respect via personality more than godliness

Jainism
I have no idea. Not really the most violent of religions. Somebody should do a study

Shintoism
Technically Atheist and at the extreme, Deist

Taoism
Never has been an overly large religion(the Religion, not to be confused with the Philosophy) and has a history of non-violence

Mormons
Everyone goes to heaven(except evil people), everyone wins. Give them a cup of tea! Not coffee though, they're not allowed

Jehovahs Witnesses
Okay these guy's hate Atheists. Then again, telling them that their 'Religion' is a outlawed cult in many parts of the world might not be the best way to start a dialogue....

Have I forgotten any? Oh wait

Seventh Day Adventists
Its quite amazing how very little of their own religion these people know. I keep telling them the world ended in 1913 but they never believe me. You can class them as 'Atheist Neutral'

Catholics
They lost the war and coexist peacefully now

Apostolic Catholic Church of the Assyrian East
Still persecute Atheists

Russian Orthodox Church
Atheists still persecute them

Greek Orthodox Church
Just as a note: These churches(Except for the Assyrian one) were founded to replace the hereditary heirachies known as 'Patriachs' of the principal cities. The Greek Orthodox Church has a history of banishing Atheists. Not too sure if they'd get away with that today

The True Catholic Church
Hate Atheists. Are wackos

Shakers
Only three or five people of the Shaker faith exist in the world. Their feelings about Atheists will die with them

Lamaism
'Orthodox' Buddhism headed by the Dalai Lama. Encourages free thought. Friend of Atheism

Shamanism
Varies

Voodoo
Hate Atheists. Have dolls. You do the math

Confucian
Not a Religion

Reply #4236 Posted: March 02, 2008, 09:50:31 am
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Offline krasher

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Most Christians that I know consider an atheist to be a person just like anybody else, but somebody who for some reason does not have the faith to believe. I think most Christians would share a sense that an atheist is missing out on something. As in a sense of empathy or caring, not a sense that they are stupid or anything like that. Just to be crystal clear before you go judging...

I would have though Catholics would have thought similar so I am surprised (but not really surprised as I have seen plenty of other crap come out of your mouth/fingers)to see you say that the flics hate atheists.

The only hate round here seems to come from the atheists.

Reply #4237 Posted: March 02, 2008, 10:01:17 am
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Offline KiLL3r

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Quote from: krasher;667937
Most Christians that I know consider an atheist to be a person just like anybody else, but somebody who for some reason does not have the faith to believe. I think most Christians would share a sense that an atheist is missing out on something. As in a sense of empathy or caring, not a sense that they are stupid or anything like that. Just to be crystal clear before you go judging...


Thats the thing we arnt missing out on anything and telling us that we will goto hell because of it is wrong. You dont seem to see that people are happy being atheists you just see us as needing to be fixed

Reply #4238 Posted: March 02, 2008, 10:20:42 am


Offline krasher

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I know that's what you think. I was just answering a question.

Reply #4239 Posted: March 02, 2008, 10:39:53 am
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Offline Tiwaking!

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Quote from: krasher;667937
I would have though Catholics would have thought similar so I am surprised (but not really surprised as I have seen plenty of other crap come out of your mouth/fingers)to see you say that the flics hate atheists.

The only hate round here seems to come from the atheists.

Was that aimed at me?

Catholics treat Atheists just like everyone else who isnt Catholic. 2/3'rds of Germany was wiped out because of it.

Reply #4240 Posted: March 02, 2008, 10:42:05 am
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Offline philo-sofa

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Quote from: $lim-$hot;667745

 When I was a Christian, I believed evolution occurred.  I simply believed it wasn't random.  


I can't disagree that it could be a matter of understanding the workings of a higher power, in fact that's something I've been trying to point out in this thread.  A lot.

Quote from: $lim-$hot;667745

The statistical chances of evolution happening the way it did is beyond comprehension.  So it begged the question, and is still a question I ask myself, do we exist because of a natural statistical fluke, or because evolution is simply a tool of a higher power?  In my mind science was simply a way for man to try and understand the complex workings of God.


It's important to understand what one means by unlikely - assuming we accept evolution as something that occurs, I'm not sure either way whether you're distinguishing between something that's amazing, or something that's unlikely.  For instance, we've all had the thought that it's incredibly unlikely that we're here at this point, living where we are, having the exact job we have, sitting in the exact position we are and having the exact thoughts we're having.  But it's not 'unlikely' in the sense that it's unusual.  

As an analogy consider the cards dealt in a hand of poker every single hand even if it's distinctly average in terms of the poker hand that the players get, every single hand, is essentially unique and incredibly unlikely.  With three cards and five players the odds of all the players having the exact cards they have are one in  5.86 x 10^24 (from !52/!37).  That's about one in 586 billion billion.  But it's not special.  It's just an 'ordinary hand'.  But if we see one player have a royal flush (odds one in 649,739) we feel it's more special than an ordinary hand.

Basically what I'm saying is that if you accept the mechanism, the exact specific way it's all turned out is unlikely, but unimportant, who cares whether we have five fingers per hand or seven splarganss per kwor?  The development of intelligent life itself isn't even like getting a good poker hand - it seems quite likely given the right conditions.

Reply #4241 Posted: March 02, 2008, 11:03:08 am

Offline Dr Woomanchu

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Quote from: krasher;667852
The effects of Religion on Physical and Mental Health - Harold G. Koenig, MD

A book I found whilst doing some research on the topic. This is scientific research to establish the 'truth' about the above topic.

Basically, this is science getting pwnd by science.




short version: having an imaginary friend can be good for your mental health.

That makes sense actually.

Reply #4242 Posted: March 02, 2008, 11:42:38 am

Blackwatch Off Topic - Abandon hope all ye who enter here

Offline cobra

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Quote from: krasher;667937
Most Christians that I know consider an atheist to be a person just like anybody else, but somebody who for some reason does not have the faith to believe.


it is patronising to suggest that we are lacking faith, we are not atheists because we are "lacking" something, we are atheist because we are intellectually honest


Quote from: krasher;667937

The only hate round here seems to come from the atheists.


lol - read your hateful posts from a few pages back - i believe you told me to fuck off and die in a fire or something

calling you ignorant after you post ignorant post after ignorant post isn't hateful, just honest

Reply #4243 Posted: March 02, 2008, 01:13:10 pm

Offline krasher

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Quote from: cobra;668053
it is patronising to suggest that we are lacking faith, we are not atheists because we are "lacking" something, we are atheist because we are intellectually honest

lol - read your hateful posts from a few pages back - i believe you told me to fuck off and die in a fire or something

calling you ignorant after you post ignorant post after ignorant post isn't hateful, just honest
You can take it as patronising if you want - but that is not the intention. The way you talk about people of faith here is far worse that patronising.

Um..you don't know what your talking about re my hateful posts. They don't exist.

Reply #4244 Posted: March 02, 2008, 01:19:35 pm
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Offline Black Heart

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beleif in god is what makes suicide bombers, for every example you have of a good effect of religion it is severely outweighed by the bad effects, so disgustingly outweighed that I'm suprised at your audacity to even post it.

Reply #4245 Posted: March 02, 2008, 01:38:58 pm

Offline krasher

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Quote from: Black Heart;668069
beleif in god is what makes suicide bombers, for every example you have of a good effect of religion it is severely outweighed by the bad effects, so disgustingly outweighed that I'm suprised at your audacity to even post it.

Oh is it. I forgot. I thought that some religions were different to others and that I said specifically which religion I was talking about.

Thank you for correcting me with your black and white thinking. I suppose you missed that post too.

How am I supposed to take you seriously when you can't even read properly?

Reply #4246 Posted: March 02, 2008, 01:55:01 pm
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Offline spliff

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Quote from: Dr_Woohoo;667987
short version: having an imaginary friend can be good for your mental health.

That makes sense actually.


*yawn* Don't you have anything remotely interesting to contribute rather than the same old boring bullshit?

krasher, while that's all well and good (the thing about religion making people happy) - most people seek knowledge and the truth rather than having a blind sense of happiness

Quote from: Black Heart;668069
beleif in god is what makes suicide bombers, for every example you have of a good effect of religion it is severely outweighed by the bad effects, so disgustingly outweighed that I'm suprised at your audacity to even post it.


No, belief in Allah is what turns people into suicide bombers, and even then it's only the religious extremists - or rather it's just because they're fucked in the head anyway so they probably would have done it regardless of whether they thought a paradise with 72 virgins awaited them.

There are plenty of people in the Islam religion that believe the actions of those suicide bombers go directly against what their religion teaches, and that they will be severely punished in the afterlife for their misdeeds.

Also, Islam is just another religion. You can believe in a God without having to be religious, thought people would have figured that out by now...

I'll respond to some of the other arguments later on tonight if I get a chance

Reply #4247 Posted: March 02, 2008, 01:58:13 pm

Offline krasher

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Who says it's blind :). Faith and blind are similar but not the same. Also, I seek knowledge and truth - it's not safe to assume that I don't just because I am a believer. That is ignorant or something un-useful like that.

It's not just about happiness - the book and the other research surrounding it is about mental wellbeing as a whole. Basically its in response to an old school idea that religiosity is directly related to clinical crazyness, they are now realising that the opposite is tru, and that it has been a mistake to ignore the spiritual aspects of a human.

It is a typical example of the baby being thrown out with the bathwater. Black and white thinking based on the assumption that if it can't be seen/measured/tested it doesn't exist or has no value. Science appears to be revisiting that stance as it is finding that it really does not have the complete answer to human happiness.

Reply #4248 Posted: March 02, 2008, 02:08:29 pm
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Offline KiLL3r

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Quote from: krasher;668100
Black and white thinking based on the assumption that if it can't be seen/measured/tested it doesn't exist or has no value.


That is not black and white thinking it is thinking logically.

If i told you wish granting pixies lived down the end of my garden what would you say?

Reply #4249 Posted: March 02, 2008, 02:18:57 pm