Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[spliff]

let's just keep repeating the same crap over and over eh...

*sigh* Where's the intelligent debaters at?

look at this way Killer: a serial killer murders a victim, then meticiously cleans up all of the evidence of the murder and completely disposes of it. The police respond to a neighbour's call about loud, suspect noises coming from the house next to them and the police go to investigate. When they get to the scene of the murder, the police search the house thoroughly but cannot find a single bit of evidence to show or prove that there was a murder.

Does that mean the murder didn't happen?

(probably not the best example I can think of just at the moment, but meh...)

[Arnifix]

No, belief in Allah is what turns people into suicide bombers, and even then it's only the religious extremists

Wrong. There have been quite a few Christian suicide bombers, in the Middle East, Northern Ireland and Japan, for example.

[spliff]

let's just keep repeating the same crap over and over eh...


look at it this way Killer: a serial killer murders a victim, then meticiously cleans up all of the evidence of the murder and completely disposes of it. The police respond to a neighbour's call about loud, suspect noises coming from the house next to them and the police go to investigate. When they get to the scene of the murder, the police search the house thoroughly but cannot find a single bit of evidence to show or prove that there was a murder.

Does that mean the murder didn't happen?

(probably not the best example I can think of just at the moment, but meh...)

basically, just because you can't see or hear or prove or find evidence of something, does NOT mean it didn't happen or doesn't exist. Does that finally make sense to you?

[spliff]

Wrong. There have been quite a few Christian suicide bombers, in the Middle East, Northern Ireland and Japan, for example.

exactly, religious extremists and/or people fucked in the head. You don't seriously think the greater majority of christians think it's acceptable to go blowing people up do you? Even suicide itself is a sin to them let alone murdering a whole lot of people

[Arnifix]

No, belief in Allah is what turns people into suicide bombers, and even then it's only the religious extremists - or rather it's just because they're fucked in the head anyway so they probably would have done it regardless of whether they thought a paradise with 72 virgins awaited them.

exactly, religious extremists and/or people fucked in the head.

How's about you learn to write, then come back into this thread, mkay.

[spliff]

Learn to write? :sly: What are you on about...? oh noes, because I made a slight mistake in what I was trying to say? How about you learn to stop bitching about small insignificant things and instead focus on the discussion

[spliff]

Learn to write? :sly: What are you on about...? oh noes, because I made a slight mistake in what I was trying to say? How about you learn to stop bitching about small insignificant things and instead focus on the discussion

[KiLL3r]

let's just keep repeating the same crap over and over eh...


look at it this way Killer: a serial killer murders a victim, then meticiously cleans up all of the evidence of the murder and completely disposes of it. The police respond to a neighbour's call about loud, suspect noises coming from the house next to them and the police go to investigate. When they get to the scene of the murder, the police search the house thoroughly but cannot find a single bit of evidence to show or prove that there was a murder.

Does that mean the murder didn't happen?

you already answered that question. the neighbour hearing something confirms that something has happened!

then theres the evidence that the person nextdoor is missing.

which combined with the neighbours reports of loud noises leads police to believe that fouls play is involved.

there may not be physical evidence of a murder but there is a lot of other evidence to show that something indeed happened nextdoor





The same way we cant see wind. We know that its there because we see it affecting things around us. same goes for gravity.

[Arnifix]

Learn to write? :sly: What are you on about...? oh noes, because I made a slight mistake in what I was trying to say? How about you learn to stop bitching about small insignificant things and instead focus on the discussion

You specifically blamed Islam for suicide bombers. It wasn't a typo. It was the entire point of your previous post. Hardly insignificant.

[Black Heart]

Oh is it. I forgot. I thought that some religions were different to others and that I said specifically which religion I was talking about.

Thank you for correcting me with your black and white thinking. I suppose you missed that post too.

How am I supposed to take you seriously when you can't even read properly?

suicide bombing isn't simply an islamic ideal, maybe you missed what was happening in ireland, not so long ago ?

I don't care what you take seriously. I hardly think you're going to change your life because of a few internet posts. I certainly aren't. You can take it as a fact that I don't take you any more seriously. oh and you too spliff, try and think beyond current events.

holy wars. < please find 1 example of good that outweighs the crusades.

[spliff]

you already answered that question. the neighbour hearing something confirms that something has happened!

then theres the evidence that the person nextdoor is missing.

which combined with the neighbours reports of loud noises leads police to believe that fouls play is involved.

there may not be physical evidence of a murder but there is a lot of other evidence to show that something indeed happened nextdoor





The same way we cant see wind. We know that its there because we see it affecting things around us. same goes for gravity.

oh dear, you still don't get it

Iconz needs a fail icon so I can spam it up

fail fail fail

[nick247]

holy wars. < please find 1 example of good that outweighs the crusades.

to be honest im yet to see anyone actually defending institutional religion on the grounds of it being so good that people that are not part of it are evil or misguided

The main debate here seems to be whether god exists or not. Which seems like a rather moot point.

Even killer can probably see that there could be a chance of something higher up having a say in how everything has come about, even if "god" is actually just the force that allows molecules to bond.

Where the real contention lies is where religious people then say "well god saids XYZ". Thats when religion really makes no sense

[KiLL3r]

oh dear, you still don't get it

Iconz needs a fail icon so I can spam it up

fail fail fail

no you dont get it. were talking about evidence. there is always some sort of evidence of something happening. It might not be a dead body lying on the floor but as i pointed out theres always something else pointing to what happened. thats how science works and for some reason or another you dont seem to understand this.

[krasher]

you already answered that question. the neighbour hearing something confirms that something has happened!

then theres the evidence that the person nextdoor is missing.

which combined with the neighbours reports of loud noises leads police to believe that fouls play is involved.

there may not be physical evidence of a murder but there is a lot of other evidence to show that something indeed happened nextdoor

The same way we cant see wind. We know that its there because we see it affecting things around us. same goes for gravity.

I gave evidence that science doesn't always get it right - in fact it can be very wrong and damaging.
 
I gave evidence that the Christian faith has a positive effect on peoples mental health.

It is more about what you choose to believe maybe. You only notice what you want to notice.

Some people look at the human body and complain about how broken it is. Others look at it and say, how can this be a product of mere evolution.

[nick247]

I gave evidence that science doesn't always get it right - in fact it can be very wrong and damaging.
 

This is a common and rather dangerous argument to use in support of religious views. By the same measure religon fails more so than science

[krasher]

This is a common and rather dangerous argument to use in support of religious views. By the same measure religon fails more so than science

Sure, that's why it wasn't given on its own. That is the whole point. One of the main complaints in this thread is that religion makes wars bla bla bla, I was simply pointing out that a full faith in the ways of science can have negative consequences, and that science can be misused/misapplied as can religion.

I could banter on about specific stupid things that science has done over the years, but it does not prove that science doesn't exist. It just proves that it is not perfect or complete.

What has been illustrated is that there is a positive correlation between Christian religion and mental health. What I am yet to find is research stating the same about the effects on ones mental health for being an atheist or agnostic. It may exist, I just can't find it yet - the latest research is pointing to and advising the health profession to include matters of spirituality in its approach.

[KiLL3r]

I could banter on about specific stupid things that science has done over the years, but it does not prove that science doesn't exist. It just proves that it is not perfect or complete.
.

you could but you wont because you know all the examples you will come up with will be outdated or completely wrong

im not saying science has never been wrong but its affects arnt as far reaching as religions are

[krasher]

you could but you wont because you know all the examples you will come up with will be outdated or completely wrong

im not saying science has never been wrong but its affects arnt as far reaching as religions are

No, I don't need to. And there is no point. You can't measure these things and say one is worse than the other. Both are too big and history too long.

But that's ok. It's beside my point that you are ignoring.

[Dr Woomanchu]

Originally Posted by Dr_Woohoo
short version: having an imaginary friend can be good for your mental health.

That makes sense actually.

*yawn* Don't you have anything remotely interesting to contribute rather than the same old boring bullshit?

I was serious.   I thought about it some more after my post. Let me explain in more detail.

OK. Broad statement of my philosophy to start. Neither detailed nor exhaustive.  Fundamentally we think in analogy. We model the world we live in based on the prior experience. Regardless of religious belief or lack of, we all do this. We tell stories about the world around us and our perception of it. From them we generate our ethics, morals, and the behaviours that we have conscious control over.

Extending the metaphor, human conflict arises from conflicting stories.  eg Multiculturalism causes stresses because peoples stories are incompatible.

We create social cohesion through having stories that are compatible. They share a common set of assumptions, values and contexts.

Science, in the terms of this analogy, seeks to measure reality, for want of a better term, as independently of our stories as possible.  Now this isn't easy, because our brains don't operate in scientific terms, they work in a subjective fashion. In essence we tell stories about the data the scientific method provides.

We are mammals. Most social mammals have a social structure with clear leadership. We're no different. Most people are actually happier when they are being led.

In this context, religion is fundamentally a formalised framework for shared stories. It's usually patriarchal, and creates a leadership structure (fortunately for those who benefit from organised religion, the leader in this case  is not detectable by any human senses, and so they get the rewards of being his mouthpiece). So it makes sense that people who follow an organised religion are happier.

*end of long version

I'm sorry if the slightly flippant term imaginary friend offended. It must be like calling a Porsche a matchbox car.

To finish.

The atheist and the theist will never  reach common ground because their stories are fundamentally incompatible. For the atheist, the story must be compatible with data supplied by the scientific method, i.e reality. For many theists the story is reality, and any data that doesn't fit must be incorrect.

There are some theists who are happy to keep moving their god(s) to the gaps in the data. Seems pretty wishy washy to me. whatever story you're going to live your life by FFS COMMIT!!

[Arnifix]

What has been illustrated is that there is a positive correlation between Christian religion and mental health.

Wasn't there a screenshot taken from the same book which showed that the majority of studies came to the opposite conclusion, ie, religion is bad for your mental health.

[Black Heart]

whats your point krasher ? I mean I just can't be bothered arguing about mental health in a thread about religion / science. so please make some kind of statement to make your claim relevant, cause I don't see how it is in anyway. Or are you simply trying to find something positive about religion, and it doesn't actually matter if it's right or true, because theres a positive spin off anyway ?

I hope not, next we should all be getting lobotomies to reduce the violence in society.

[Tiwaking!]

A summary worthy of much rep

Somebody has been breaking out the Critical Thinking 101!

I hope not, next we should all be getting lobotomies to reduce the violence in society.

You havent had your lobotomy yet? I'll schedule you in behind THX-1146 and LUH

[krasher]

A major trend in this thread is saying that Christians are crazy and science is the way etc, so I thought it was interesting to point out the scientific research has discovered that not only does religion not make people less happy or psycho, but is a relevant aspect of a person and are now encouraging this. Science - encouraging religion.

That quote was out of context or not from the book. The part I quoted covered that point. It's old school thinking. I'll go double check it now.

[krasher]

A major trend in this thread is saying that Christians are crazy and science is the way etc, so I thought it was interesting to point out the scientific research has discovered that not only does religion not make people less happy or psycho, but is a relevant aspect of a person and are now encouraging this. Science - encouraging religion.

That quote was out of context or not from the book. The part I quoted covered that point. It's old school thinking. I'll go double check it now.

edit: oh yup, its on the previous page, saying that the reason that some therapists say that reliegion is unhealthy is because they only see the bad cases  or possible because of....you can see the rest. Might be case for some of you as well....might only have seen religion in its worst form. Bombings, Destiny, Campaigns against Homosexuality etc. These things are so far from any of the religion that I have experienced in the last 25 years. Don't 'clump' data that isn't meant to be clumped. I could argue that the 9.11 bombers were not Christians, so all non-Christians (i hate that term) are terrorists, but that simply isn't true but that is the same principle that you are using on 'us'.

Interesting point woohoo, but that's not what any of the literature that I have read points to. If you are going to try and take God out of it.....now why would you want to do that...then you could say its about community, belonging, etc. Literature talks about having core beliefs and values to hold to and that being useful, but they are only speculating. It is hard to measure that it is good for you to hang out with your creator - well that's why I think it is helpful.

Anyway, that's probably enough from me, Ill let you get back to your one sided God bashing.

[Slim]

to be honest im yet to see anyone actually defending institutional religion on the grounds of it being so good that people that are not part of it are evil or misguided

The main debate here seems to be whether god exists or not. Which seems like a rather moot point.

Even killer can probably see that there could be a chance of something higher up having a say in how everything has come about, even if "god" is actually just the force that allows molecules to bond.

Where the real contention lies is where religious people then say "well god saids XYZ". Thats when religion really makes no sense

Institutional religion is dying out, and its about time.  The Catholic Church has been a force, quite frankly, or evil for the last 1800 years.  In New Zealand we are beginning to see an increase in smaller more liberal churches such as the New Life and Baptists, or a slackening of law in the more mainstream churches, especially the Anglican Church.  The flip side is that loonie bins such as Destiny Church are also coming into focus.  The idea of going to church on Sunday for an hour is also diminishing.  Church is becoming more social, more people based with a focus on a persons relationship with God, not the semantics of the Bible.  If you want to attack a religion, fine.  A lot of Christians, especially NZ Christians are quite disconnected from the 'Church'.  In my opinion, as long as the "Church", or religion in general stay disassociated from politics, I don't think they can do any real harm.

I also don't like the idea of a person's religious beliefs impacting on our culture.  The best example I can think of is that I would not want my child taught by a Muslim wearing a full face cover.  I think it is contradictory to our cultural norms.  We should do our best to accommodate other's cultures and religions, but we should not have to change our own too much in the process.  If you know what I mean.