Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[cobra]

Please don't make me read something so ridiculously stupid ever again. Thanks.

*cough* hypocrite *cough*

[Ngati_Grim]

Originally Posted by winfieldsaregood
well what i hate is when some bible basher comes along and trys to convert my hethen self, but if i go preaching to people the god is faluse and non exsitant its a bad thing.

and the other thing i hate is there is god worship programs on tv but no devil worship programs whats the go there.

and if there is some non belevers why donst this so called god smite the evil and save the good why because he is not real people

Please don't make me read something so ridiculously stupid ever again. Thanks.

Well, I think he raises some interesting questions. Just because it's not worded in a way you would like (I presume) doesn't make it less valid.

[philo-sofa]

well what i hate is when some bible basher comes along and trys to convert my hethen self, but if i go preaching to people the god is faluse and non exsitant its a bad thing.

Leaving aside the terrible lack of pro-Satan TV shows for now, it's a good point.  I think the general thinking of the part of the religious is that basically you're in effect going to lead to the loss of people's eternal souls, whilst they are attempting to save them (no response here for those attempts, but I guess I appreciate the sentiment).  The trouble of course is that this is based on the idea that the religious are right in the first place, which is your point - you're arguing they aren't.  

You certainly aren't a criminal or even morally culpable in terms of what you do, or the oft quoted reasoning that 'if you're right then stuff suxxors, if I'm right then yaaay we get an afterlife, so let people believe' as that would lead to us having to chase down the bottom of every rainbow for a pot of gold.  It is a bit of an inequity that Atheists tend to face: we're "irresponsible" in so many people's eyes for preaching rational reasons for disbelief with respect to God, much like people questioning the fact that Ecstasy is has about 1/10,000th the mortaility and some even tinier percentage the addiction rate of Alcohol are condemned as "irresponsible" for talking well of this "killer drug".  

Off topic, sorry....

[ThaFleastyler]

You know, I really only have two problems with this thread, and the attitudes being thrown around in it - particularly the attitudes being shown towards people like Krasher and myself.

Firstly, assumption after assumption has been made on the behaviour of Christian peoples, especially by KiLL3r and Cobra - for example, its been assumed that all Christians go door knocking (which I've tried to explain is not the case); its been assumed that all Christians are crazy fundamentalists (which myself and Krasher have both tried to explain is an unfair stereotype); its been assumed that Christian people are ALL opposed to science, or to evolution, or to any number of mainstream beliefs (which myself and Krasher have also both tried to explain is not the case). Theres 100 other things too, that are wrong, unfair and simply offensive.

The problem isn't so much that these assumptions are made, since people are entitled to their opinion ... however, theres a double standard at work here: for example, page after page after page has been spent trying to prove evolution is true, and as a result a number of things I've believed in the past have been rethinked, and I've conceded as much; if I'm wrong, I'm happy to admit I'm wrong, case closed.

The double standard is, in cases where Christians have been accused of something, and where I've said "look, thats not fair and it certainly isn't the case for ALL Christians", the attitude back at me has essentially been "well, I'm right, so shut the fuck up" - time after time, and no matter how many times I say "all Christians are NOT door-knockers", someone comes in here and says "I hate how all Christians knock on my door" - and theres 100 other things which are thrown at us over and over, again unfairly, wrongly and offensively.

Things like the examples I've mentioned are the same kind of disgusting stereotypes as if, say, this was a thread on racism and one or two people kept bringing up unfair racial stereotypes - it wouldn't be stood for in that context, yet for some reason its fine for Cobra to compare me to a Nazi multiple times (page 136-137 being the most recent)? Frankly, thats fucked up, thats hypocritical, and its a shocking double standard - and as long as it keeps occurring, I just can't be part of this thread, no matter how interested I am in the topic.


Secondly, personal attacks aimed at myself and Krasher are frequent, and frankly, I'm sick of them. As I mention, Cobra has compared me to a Nazi multiple times in this thread, and frankly I can't be bothered with such childish, pathetic bullshit. Again, the kind of attacks on myself and Krasher that have gone unnoticed (or at least, unmentioned by mods) in this thread would be pulled up in other threads - heck, bannination would occur if some of what has been said to me in this thread was said to an admin.

My advice to those responsible - particularly Cobra and KiLL3r - is that if you want to have a discussion, don't be a fucking jerk to those you're trying to have a discussion with. For my part, I do my best to read each post in this thread and understand where you're coming from, and respond with my honest thought, right or wrong. But its no fucking fun when I'm responding to attacks, fallacies and unfair, offensive stereotypes.

Please remember that when you say "Christians are Nazis" or "Christians are doorknockers" or "Christians are intolerant of homosexuals/criminals/prostitutes/the poor/non-believers/etc" you're essentially saying that that is what I'm like or what Krashers like, which offends me personally (I can't speak for Krash).


Of course, this is not to mention the bickering among those on the side of science - it makes it very hard to follow when you guys are arguing amongst yourselves, or making pointless posts like "dumbest thing I've ever read" or whatever.

If this thread is going to work in the long term, there needs to be a little understanding going both ways, there needs to be a halt to potentially offensive posts, and there needs to be a little tolerance for each others beliefs. I've tried my best, but I now find myself just getting angry at the kind of bullshit that is being brought up as an argument or discussion point.

This thread was started as a "Religion vs Science" thread, yet for some reason and at some point it was deemed acceptable for this to become a place free of punishment where people could come and attack Christian people simply for being Christian people. Please remember that.

Thanks for your time. Maybe I'll be back at some point.

[cnvrt02]

Hey guys! lets piss in the wind, it will achieve more than what this thread is.

i went to a christian school for 3 years, nice place to be.

[philo-sofa]

The problem isn't so much that these assumptions are made, since people are entitled to their opinion ... however, theres a double standard at work here: for example, page after page after page has been spent trying to prove evolution is true, and as a result a number of things I've believed in the past have been rethinked, and I've conceded as much; if I'm wrong, I'm happy to admit I'm wrong, case closed.

The double standard is, in cases where Christians have been accused of something, and where I've said "look, thats not fair and it certainly isn't the case for ALL Christians", the attitude back at me has essentially been "well, I'm right, so shut the fuck up" - time after time, and no matter how many times I say "all Christians are NOT door-knockers", someone comes in here and says "I hate how all Christians knock on my door" - and theres 100 other things which are thrown at us over and over, again unfairly, wrongly and offensively.


Secondly, personal attacks aimed at myself and Krasher are frequent, and frankly, I'm sick of them. As I mention, Cobra has compared me to a Nazi multiple times in this thread, and frankly I can't be bothered with such childish, pathetic bullshit. Again, the kind of attacks on myself and Krasher that have gone unnoticed (or at least, unmentioned by mods) in this thread would be pulled up in other threads - heck, bannination would occur if some of what has been said to me in this thread was said to an admin.

TBH there have been so many posts just in the last few days I've lost track.  But I have to respect anyone who ends up changing their opinion - no matter what opinions people people have developed of you, I think that'd be something they respect.  As a side note, there's no subject I'd rather someone changed their mind on than evolution if their stance is to doubt it. I hope I played some part in enhancing your understanding and that I wasn't too acrid about it.

As for Christians and stereotyping, there has been a fair bit of that coming from the other direction as well, not to applaud it in either case, as with personal attacks, which everyone's been doing to some extent.  The net may not be serious business, but it sure as hell tends to be personal.

[Xt1ncT]

My point is that your creator is exactly that. he is your creator. He doesn't exist independently of you. Outside of you there is not one single thing that you can point at and say "there goes krashers god". The same applies to everyone else's god(s).

If he is real to you, that's fine, but expecting him to be real to everyone else when he has no measurable presence in any objective reality is delusional.

Most importantly, if believing in him gives you  a happier life, and discourages you from doing things that ruin other peoples lives, then I'm all for it. The objective reality of your creator is trivial compared to that.

However , if you choose to come and claim his objective existence in a public forum, then it's quite reasonable for people to be dismissive of the claims

Very well put.

I only have issues in 2 areas.

1)  When people hate others who don't share their beliefs, or their belief systems call for  intolerance of non members
2) When people who's beliefs are at variance with verifiable fact claim the data must be wrong. ( although it's noticeable that religions who believe their gods will let them fly from the top of skyscrapers are generally shortlived

You can add another one ot that.

3) When people choose to indoctrinate their children into the same beliefs without letting them know that there is an alternative


To this day it still astonishes me that obviously intelligent people believe in something that can't be proved in the slightest. And surely if "God" was so benevolent there would be far less misery in the world than there really is.

There's a great episode in "The West Wing" series 2 that talks about a lot of the crap that the bible has in it's pages - basiclaly in answer to a christian who disagrees strongly in homosexuality, and gets shot down with other stuff in the bible which could be taken literally and if it were would be abhorrent to most people.

[KiLL3r]

your a bit bias there flea.

For one you make the assumption we/i think all christians all do the same thing which is wrong.

Secondly you make the assumption when we/i speak of religion we are only talking about christians which is wrong again. You most likely think were only bashing christians because you are the only ones here to reply to our questions.

And thridly the majority of personal attacks come from krasher when his "evidence" is proven to be false. This thread has been quite civil throughout its history only recently with the arrival of slim and spiff has this changed.


Now please can we make this more about the issues and less about your feelings. You seem to think your the only ones being attacked :disappoin

[Ngati_Grim]

3) When people choose to indoctrinate their children into the same beliefs without letting them know that there is an alternative

Exactly: There are no christian children, only children of christian parents!
              (or insert religion of choice in its place).

(This is to paraphrase Mr Dawkins).

[Dr Woomanchu]

As a parent I am  cautious about the religious aspect. Children raised with no appreciation of the long history and place in human development of religions of all sorts, are more vulnerable to cult like belief systems when they become young adults.

Religion fills a need in the human psyche. If you don't give your kids some tools and context when they inevitably start asking themselves what the hell is it all about, and all the other whys, then they're vulnerable to people who claim to have the answers.

[Ngati_Grim]

If you don't give your kids some tools and context when they inevitably start asking themselves what the hell is it all about, and all the other whys, then they're vulnerable to people who claim to have the answers.

I'm not so sure whether religion fills a need in the human psyche. I, for one, err on the side of caution regarding that. But I do understand your point about having appropriate tools in the toolbox, with which to counter given situations.
This is why I believe History is an important subject to teach children. It gives context. There are many other subjects that are equally important. I don't believe religion is an appropriate subject (certainly not in state schools, and certainly not stand-alone. If it is incorporated into history or social studies then maybe), but that is my view.
Also, foster the enjoyment of learning and reading and questioning, as these are useful tools as well.

[ThaFleastyler]

your a bit bias there flea.

For one you make the assumption we/i think all christians all do the same thing which is wrong.

Secondly you make the assumption when we/i speak of religion we are only talking about christians which is wrong again. You most likely think were only bashing christians because you are the only ones here to reply to our questions.

And thridly the majority of personal attacks come from krasher when his "evidence" is proven to be false. This thread has been quite civil throughout its history only recently with the arrival of slim and spiff has this changed.


Now please can we make this more about the issues and less about your feelings. You seem to think your the only ones being attacked :disappoin

We are the only ones being attacked. When was the last time someone compared you to a Nazi? What if I was to say "well, belief in science is consistent with a practice of pedophilia"?

I have not thrown an attack at you, other than in complete and utter frustration, which I've apologised for in the past. I can't speak for Krasher, he's a grown man and can speak for himself. I'm just tired of being dismissed as a kook simply for holding a belief you don't share. Its not like I've started threads promoting church, or sharing the gospel, or being evangelical, or standing on a soapbox screaming all hell and damnation (so to speak).

And yeah, I think you are bashing Christians because you are! This whole thread has been an excuse to complain about Christian behaviours - not 10 pages ago you tried to say that the Christian God was the same as the Muslim God, which isn't true. Time and again you've painted Christians with the same brush as Muslim terrorists, and frankly I'm sick of it.

And my statement that you make assumptions on all Christians - for example, you yourself have said "Christians knock on my door" (well, words to that effect) ... well, no: Mormons and JWs knock on your door. Or "Christians are lead by the pope", which seems to be a running problem for non-believers ... err, again no: that would be Catholics. Or "Christians hate homosexuals" ... err, once again, no: that would be fundamentalists.

I'm not a Mormon, JW, Catholic or Fundie, any more than you are.

As for my feelings, yeah, I do have some, and they get fucking hurt everytime someone says I'm a Nazi because I happen to believe in God. I guess I'm just human like that, and get pissed off when someone compares me to a group of people who inflicted the worst evil EVER on humankind.

I don't mean to pick on you KiLL3r, and I am sorry if it seems like I'm attacking you back, but I simply don't like contributing to something when my opinions and comments are instantly dismissed, and you (and Cobra) seem to be the 2 people doing that the most. I guess I'm just human like that too. Its less a discussion here than it is a "hey Christians, shut the fuck up, this is how it is".

[Arnifix]

We are the only ones being attacked. When was the last time someone compared you to a Nazi? What if I was to say "well, belief in science is consistent with a practice of pedophilia"?

Ask woohoo how often he gets called a nazi. I bet it's more often than you.

And I'd want evidence that science = pedo.

[ThaFleastyler]

Ask woohoo how often he gets called a nazi. I bet it's more often than you.

And I'd want evidence that science = pedo.

I was making an example :bigglasse

[Black Heart]

everyone who calls themselves christians get tarred with the same brush thats human nature. we like labels.
besides jesus wouldn't fight back, you're not like him at all. I'm assuming christians aim to be like jesus, that would be an ideal goal for all christians wouldn't it ? correct me if I'm wrong.

[ThaFleastyler]

everyone who calls themselves christians get tarred with the same brush thats human nature. we like labels.
besides jesus wouldn't fight back, you're not like him at all. I'm assuming christians aim to be like jesus, that would be an ideal goal for all christians wouldn't it ? correct me if I'm wrong.

Jesus spent most of his time wandering around, teaching his disciples, casting out demons, performing miracles, and preaching to large crowds. In cases where people were doing or thinking wrong, he corrected them, as in the time when he went into a temple and got rid of tax collectors, the time when he went to a well and spoke to a woman there, or the time when he preached to 5000 people on the side of a mountain (then fed them).

He also stood by his statements and stood by his beliefs. He also taught that we should be like light to the world, so maybe thats what I'm trying to do - help you guys see something a little more clearly.

[Dr Woomanchu]

I'm not so sure whether religion fills a need in the human psyche. I, for one, err on the side of caution regarding that. But I do understand your point about having appropriate tools in the toolbox, with which to counter given situations.
This is why I believe History is an important subject to teach children. It gives context. There are many other subjects that are equally important. I don't believe religion is an appropriate subject (certainly not in state schools, and certainly not stand-alone. If it is incorporated into history or social studies then maybe), but that is my view.
Also, foster the enjoyment of learning and reading and questioning, as these are useful tools as well.

For as long as we have had any sort of records at all, people have created one sort of gods or another. The progression from animism to unitarianism is  clear. If it didn't meet a fundamental need religion wouldn't be so pervavsive


There is a difference between studying religion and being indoctrinated in it.  

Some people believe... vs this is how it is

[Ngati_Grim]

everyone who calls themselves christians get tarred with the same brush thats human nature. we like labels.
besides jesus wouldn't fight back, you're not like him at all. I'm assuming christians aim to be like jesus, that would be an ideal goal for all christians wouldn't it ? correct me if I'm wrong.

um...Jesus would fight back! Remember the parable of the moneylenders in the temple? (oh, I've just read the post ^^^)
The story of Jesus is one of standing up to the injustices of the time, specifically the Roman Empire.
Whether or not the historicity of the figure is correct is a moot point here, regarding your assertion.

There is a difference between studying religion and being indoctrinated in it.  

Yes, that seems correct and I will agree with you. Because of the 'importance' of religion throughout our history, it is important to be aware of what makes it tick, along with the basics of the teachings, and yes, one doesn't have to agree with it to be interested in it!

[spliff]

follows: Wall-of-Text and some of my thoughts (note: not as coherent as I would like it to be as I typed this up quickly)

I think Fleastyler is referring more to the sly undertones of know-it-all attitudes coming from a few people in this thread, and remarks about imaginary friends and fairies, it's just stupid, uneccessary bullshit that doesn't add anything valuble at all to the discussions. The people saying stuff like that, ie. krasher, Kill3r and others, if you had any clue at all you would realise how ridiculous it is to use examples like that in defence of your arguments.

I don't understand why some of you can't, or for some reason refuse to open your mind up to concepts that science cannot explain or you cannot fully comprehend. It's like: "Science can't explain it, therefore I don't want to hear about it." Even Stephen Hawkings, one of the smartest scientists in the world believes there is a possibility of a God, and I'm sure most other scientists don't outright deny the possibility. So why do atheists have so much difficulty coming to terms with something just because they don't fully understand it?

I get the feeling from someone like Kill3r that he the only reason he dislikes religion and concepts of God so much just because he thinks it's cool. Seriously, that's the impression that I get from you. You're so quick to discredit and insult the Bible - yet I can almost guarantee that you haven't even bothered to read it.

The example that I mentioned yesterday about the murder, let me try putting it another way. In your apparently extensive knowledge of all things in the universe, do you deny the possibility that intelligent life might exist outside of Earth, despite the fact that there is no scientific evidence to prove there is?

If you do deny the possibility because there isn't sufficient evidence to support it, then you would be completely ignorant because you don't know for a fact that there isn't and you have no possible way of proving that there isn't.

It would be like saying "I know aliens don't exist because I'm so smart and know absolootly everyfing there is tah know 'bout the yooniverse, hurr hurr"

Now apply that to some of the remarks you are making about the possibility of there being a God, and you would realise how ridiculous you and other atheists sound. Maybe now that you finally understand this concept you can drop the whole 'imaginary friends' routine and move onto to supplying some solid scientific evidence that God does not exist (good luck with that)

if you still don't understand this concept, then there is no hope for you and your narrow-minded method of thought and in all honestly it's not worth wasting my time arguing with someone like you any further if this is the case.

Personally, I am very close to believing that a God or some kind of Creator that created the entire universe, based on all the things I have been reading. Practically everything in this world bears the mark of intelligent design, just about everything seems to have a very specific purpose, I honestly don't think there is any way at all that about the existence of the universe and the way everything is that can be explained by purely coincidental scientific chance - it's just not plausible to me. I just don't think something as complex as the universe can just pop out of nowhere from nothing without having to be planned and designed by something that man or science cannot comprehend.

A quote:

"The first question which should rightly be asked," wrote G.W.F. Leibniz, is "Why is there something rather than nothing?" This question does seem to possess a profound existential force, which has been felt by some of mankind's greatest thinkers. According to Aristotle, philosophy begins with a sense of wonder about the world, and the most profound question a man can ask concerns the origin of the universe. In his biography of Ludwig Wittgenstein, Norman Malcolm reports that Wittgenstein said that he sometimes had a certain experience which could best be described by saying that "when I have it, I wonder at the existence of the world. I am then inclined to use such phrases as 'How extraordinary that anything should exist!'"  Similarly, one contemporary philosopher remarks, ". . . My mind often seems to reel under the immense significance this question has for me. That anything exists at all does seem to me a matter for the deepest awe."

Why does something exist instead of nothing? Leibniz answered this question by arguing that something exists rather than nothing because a necessary being exists which carries within itself its reason for existence and is the sufficient reason for the existence of all contingent being.

Science cannot fully explain human consciousness, and I believe this essense of consciousness is what some call the 'soul' that possibly survives the death of the body, of course I don't know this and I can only guess what would happen to the soul after death. There was something I read about scientists finding that human babies are born with a consciousness (or something, I haven't got the article to refer to at the moment) that cannot be explained by science or evolution, and just seems to be there from birth for some unexplained reason. I'll see if I can find the article so I can give a better description.

Additionally, I don't think human emotions are fully reliant on brain chemistries, seretonin levels ect. I think emotions like love, sadness, jealously ect.  are something more - and has been explained emotions like these would not serve to benefit an evolutionary creature in any way, so it is unusual for humans to have developed these emotions somehow. I would go deeper into this subject with some of things I have been reading, but I don't have time at the moment so I will when I get a chance...

Of course it's quite possible that explanations like these are fabricated purely to put one's mind at ease of one of the possibilities of death, that being the possibity of complete non-existence. I understand why people feel the need to use religion and other ideas to try explain the afterlife, because how can the idea of non-existence not scare someone? When I think about something like that, in all honesty it scares the CRAP out of me, I can't fathom the idea and my mind recoils in horror at the thought of it.

When you really think about what it means, all your thoughts, memories, passions, EVERYTHING is gone for eternity. I love life, but if it means that at the end of it everything i've ever known is gone and I cease to exist, well I can't think of anything more depressing. You think about little kids, that only live to like 3 or 4 years old and they die, and that's it for them. That is fucking unbelievably depressing if that is the case.

So no I don't think it's wrong or selfish to want an afterlife, in fact I think it is completely abnormal for someone to not want there to be an afterlife. If any of you here actually truly are not afraid of death, and believe that when you die you will cease to exist for ever, well I honestly have to say that I envy you - I wish my brain was programmed in the same way. But yet is it is not, and thus I seek answers to my existence and the universe and the possibilty of God

There's still things that get me, like if there was indeed a God it obviously has no control over what happens on Earth, or it chooses not to for some reason which we cannot understand. And if there is a God, there would have to be a polar-opposite of a God, ie. an evil entity influencing the evil things that happen in the world.

[spliff]

IMO you made god cos you wanted the company

Pathetic comments like this that we do not need.

Is it wrong to be spiritual but not belong to any religious organisation?

of course not!

that was either a poor attempt at an insult or your reading comprehension has let you down again. You as displaying a lack of understanding about his theories.

I think he was somewhat correct about that actually. From what I have been reading, scientists have discovered a small region of the brain that seems to be directly related to thoughts of God and our existence, almost as if it was specifically placed there - or you could argue that it came about through evolution. Anyway, in simplified terms, for some people this region of the brain seems to be more "filtered" in comparison to other people, and these are the people who seem to have difficulty attempting to understand concepts which defy anything explainable. And then there are others for whom this region of the brain is unfiltered and find it easier to accept possibilities which are unexplainable.

My point is that your creator is exactly that. he is your creator. He doesn't exist independently of you. Outside of you there is not one single thing that you can point at and say "there goes krashers god". The same applies to everyone else's god(s).

Why can't there just be one Creator? Just because everyone's got varying beliefs about what God is and these beliefs have been all mixed up over the many centuries, doesn't make the possibilty of there being one any less substantial.

The God FAQ

MUST BE TRUE BECAUSE YOU READ IT ON THE INTERNET, AMIRITE?

if you asked an animal if it believed there is a god, what would it say?

It wouldn't say anything, because it's an animal

Come on, don't let others derail what is an interesting and, arguably, important discussion.

Agreed.

well what i hate is when some bible basher comes along and trys to convert my hethen self, but if i go preaching to people the god is faluse and non exsitant its a bad thing.

Everyone should respect everyone else's beliefs. Because when it comes down to it, not a single human on this Earth has all the answers. If you don't wish to hear about someone elses beliefs, respectfully decline. There already are people that go preaching about God being non-existent, they are just in the minority and no-one really listens to them because they have less proof than what the believers do.

and the other thing i hate is there is god worship programs on tv but no devil worship programs whats the go there.

Ridiculous comment to make. As if there isn't enough suffering and evil in the world, you want people to worship something that represents evil? Fucking brilliant idea that one. God changes people and generally leads them to living better lives with compassion and understanding for their fellow man, this is a good thing.

Your last comment was not even worth responding to I'm afraid.

there's plenty more I wanted to add to this but I will have to save it for another time

[Ngati_Grim]

There already are people that go preaching about God being non-existent, they are just in the minority and no-one really listens to them because they have less proof than what the believers do.

Actually, there is no proof of the existence of god. I know we are going to disagree on this, but it is not up to the atheists to disprove the existence of god, it is up to the believers to prove the existence.

Originally Posted by Bounty Hunter View Post
if you asked an animal if it believed there is a god, what would it say?

It wouldn't say anything, because it's an animal

We are animals. Ask me!

[spliff]

I just have to look around at the world and the universe in complete awe for evidence that there is quite possibly an entity that created it all. While it is not strictly scientific evidence, it is evidence enough for me to seriously consider the possibility.

I do believe there are other 'evidences' which science has time and time again failed to explain, but I don't have time at the moment to go into that..

it is not up to the atheists to disprove the existence of god, it is up to the believers to prove the existence.

Err, why? why should have atheists have any less obligation to prove their beliefs than what others do?  :sly:

[spliff]

I just have to look around at the world and the universe in complete awe for evidence that there is quite possibly an entity that created it all. While it is not strictly scientific evidence, it is evidence enough for me to seriously consider the possibility.

I do believe there are other 'evidences' which science has time and time again failed to explain, but I don't have time at the moment to go into that..

it is not up to the atheists to disprove the existence of god, it is up to the believers to prove the existence.

Err, why? why should have atheists have any less obligation to prove their beliefs than what others do?  :sly:

[KiLL3r]

Err, why? why should have atheists have any less obligation to prove their beliefs than what others do?  :sly:

One might be asked "How can you prove that a god does not exist?" One can only reply that it is scarcely necessary to disprove what has never been proved.

[philo-sofa]

I just have to look around at the world and the universe in complete awe for evidence that there is quite possibly an entity that created it all. While it is not strictly scientific evidence, it is evidence enough for me to seriously consider the possibility.

I do believe there are other 'evidences' which science has time and time again failed to explain, but I don't have time at the moment to go into that..

Nah, but maybe, but then defiantely nah.  It's only in a relatively complex universe that life can evolve - thus it's not amazing that the universe appears kinda awesome as othewise there'd be no-one to look at it.  Look up the 'Weak Anthropic Principle'.

Err, why? why should have atheists have any less obligation to prove their beliefs than what others do?  :sly:

Because those who try to prove the existence of God are trying to prove the positive existence of something, an 'invisible' something.  Atheists are basically just saying nothing, thus the burden of proof is generally accepted to fall with Theism.