Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Ngati_Grim]

Err, why? why should have atheists have any less obligation to prove their beliefs than what others do?  :sly:

Because we are not proving the existence. We are not the ones saying" there is a god". How can we disprove the existence if there is no evidence for this?

Here I will quote my friend Richard Dawkins: "If all the evidence in the universe turned in favour of creationism, I would be the first to admit it, and I would immediately change my mind. As things stand, however, all available evidence (and there is a vast amount of it) favours evolution. It is for this reason and this reason alone that I argue for evolution with a passion that matches the passion of those who argue against it. My passion is based on evidence.Theirs, flying in the face of evidence as it does, is truly fundamentalist." (p19, The God Delusion)


and again (p45) "The whole point of religious faith, its strength and chief glory, is that it does not depend on rational justification. The rest of us are expected to defend our prejudices. But ask a  religious person to justify their faith and you infringe 'religious liberty'."

[detonator7]

if its proof of God you want then just go outside.
[video]ObzQOztMaZ4[/video]
Earth is amazing, how can you not see the design and beauty of it and think that all of this just by chance, a random incidence.
How could life, everything you know, only be here because of the big bang, and then us evolving from monkeys into the complex humans that we are. Theres more to life than what you can see.

[nick247]

It is hard to fault the idea of the existence of god when there really is some blank areas in the explanation for the occurance of life.

But you need a follow up question to really bring out the contention and the real crux of this debate.............what is the believers idea of "god"?

"oh hes a grey haired dude with a son called jesus who actually lived in our time and he lives in heaven and he hates homos and anyone that doesnt believe in him and he really hates arabs and probably jews too, so make sure you dont like treat them nice or else you will go to hell which is all fiery and shit and the devil is a real asshole"

(I know most dont believe in this but it better allows me to illustrate the point)

The blank areas left by science may allow for the existence of "god" but they do not allow for all the extra stuff that seems to have been added. I argue that this extra stuff has perverted the idea of spirituality and in a modern enlightened world it is actually leading to the downfall of religon and its messages

Because of this, would it not make sense for the these churches to strip themselves of some of their traditions and rhetorhic in favour of a message that is more likely to be followed by the majority of people?

Wouldnt it be pretty cool if you had a place where young people (or old) could get together and talk about what spirituality means to them, or how individuals can act to help society. This does occur with church groups but the majority of us are turned off the minute they start talking about how jesus died for our sins and was reborn...........

suddenly we are like "wait a minute, wtf!"

[KiLL3r]

if its proof of God you want then just go outside.
[video]ObzQOztMaZ4[/video]
Earth is amazing, how can you not see the design and beauty of it and think that all of this just by chance, a random incidence.
How could life, everything you know, only be here because of the big bang, and then us evolving from monkeys into the complex humans that we are. Theres more to life than what you can see.

is it so hard for you to believe in random occurence?

look at yourself. the way you ended up looking was a random occurence. From the dna from both your parents there are a infinite number of ways you could have ended up so we are nothing more than a random occurence.

[detonator7]

i wouldnt say how you look is so random.  the dna from our parents dont give off a infinite number of ways and thats why we look like our siblings. if anything, i would say the way your children could look could be somewhat predictable by looking at the parents dna. ofcourse this is just a guess i could be completly wroing since i havent done biology so i only know the basic form 5 gene stuff.

[cnvrt02]

Actually, there is no proof of the existence of god. I know we are going to disagree on this, but it is not up to the atheists to disprove the existence of god, it is up to the believers to prove the existence.






We are animals. Ask me!

no, we are mammals.

i can take the easy way out, its up to the atheists to disprove the existence of god. see what i did and how i did it?

[SteddieEddie]

Just because science has yet to find the answer does not mean it MUST BE GOD all it means is science has yet to find the answer

[KiLL3r]

no, we are mammals.

i can take the easy way out, its up to the atheists to disprove the existence of god. see what i did and how i did it?

I think much of the time theists forget why they believe in their god. They know he exists, but when they really question this belief, they find it difficult to find an answer.

More often than not they’ll revert back to what they were told when they were young. They’ll fall back on scripture and positions that really aren’t tenable in the face of modern science or reasoned debate. The final betrayal of logic comes when they talk about faith. They have faith in God and that’s all they need as proof that their God exists.

Sometimes, they may even retort with questions of their own. These are often questions such as ‘If God didn’t make us then who did?’ or ‘How do you know God doesn’t exist?’

When reminded that this doesn’t explain why they believe that their specific god exists, they again fall back on irrational arguments.

Of course those that are more experienced in theological debate will come fully equipped to enter into any discussion around belief. They have an answer to almost every question.

However the result is the same. When asked why they believe in God they will either respond with a question such as ‘Why do you believe in love’ or will say something like ‘The fact that the universe exists proves that God exists’.

So where does that leave the atheist? We can talk about logic and reason. We can put forward scientific arguments or refer to Darwin. We can even offer to change our minds if the right evidence is presented.

We cannot nor will we change everyone’s mind. Hopefully atheists will continue to put forward arguments, debate religion and try to make people at least question their faith.

That’s all we really want.

We don’t want an answer that proves God’s existence.

We want to know what evidence we would need to provide to make the believer question their belief.

Dear theists, if you can provide an answer then you have proven that you can to think for yourselves. Don’t be absolute in your beliefs. Don’t rely on what others have told you. Use what is most precious to you, freedom of thought.

You might think we as atheists are as bad as the religious extremists. But there’s a big difference. We do not deal in absolutes. We do not say that your God definitely does not exist. We say that, based on the evidence, we do not believe that that your God exists.

Those are two very distinct arguments. I cannot say that I am 100% certain that god doesn’t exist the in the same way that I cannot be certain that unicorns don’t exist. Or that you cannot be 100% certain that my wish granting garden pixies do not exist.

We may be passionate but only about education and truth. We do not demand that you change your minds. We offer evidence. We do not use fear to make our points, we use reason. We do not tell you you are an evil person for not being an atheist, we tell you that actions make you a good person, not beliefs.

Think about why you believe in God. Does your religion truly represent what you believe? Is the world a better place because of religion?

If you’re not even willing to contemplate the issue of your faith and God then you are doing a disservice, not only to the rest of us, but to yourselves.

[Ngati_Grim]

no, we are mammals.

um...mammals ARE animals!

[spliff]

Because we are not proving the existence. We are not the ones saying" there is a god". How can we disprove the existence if there is no evidence for this?

But you are the ones saying that there is NOT a God despite having a lack of evidence to justify it. If you can't disprove the existence, why would you bother believing that there is no possibility whatsoever of the existence, if you lack evidence to support either theory?

If Atheism is based on evidence, the simple fact is: there is no solid evidence to prove that a God exists, but there is no solid scientific, physical (or otherwise) evidence to prove that there ISN'T - so what makes you think that you know there isn't? Do you somehow have knowledge of the existence of the universe that the rest of mankind doesn't?

So I ask you, how can you prove non-existence of God if you do not have sufficient evidence for it?

People who believe in a God generally do not need to provide evidence, because their belief is based on faith.

And please don't quote Richard Dawkins to me, I'm not interested in that tossers inept ramblings.

Nah, but maybe, but then defiantely nah.  It's only in a relatively complex universe that life can evolve - thus it's not amazing that the universe appears kinda awesome as othewise there'd be no-one to look at it.

I'm not certain that even makes any sense.

Because those who try to prove the existence of God are trying to prove the positive existence of something, an 'invisible' something.  Atheists are basically just saying nothing, thus the burden of proof is generally accepted to fall with Theism.

I'm not sure you truly know what atheism means. An atheist is not 'saying nothing' you are saying that you KNOW without a doubt that there is no God, and denying any possibility of there being one simply because you personally don't possess solid evidence to support it. Basically saying: if there isn't evidence of something, it doesn't exist. And that's the end of that. Which obviously is an absolute load of shit, if I can be frank.

Which brings back to the intelligent life example I bought up, do you also believe that because there is no evidence to support the existence of intelligent life outside of Earth that they obviously do not exist and there is absolutely no possibility of it existing?

Atheism is stupid, full stop.

If you are 100% certain that a God/Creator/Whatever you want to call it doesn't exist and the universe just popped out of nowhere like magic, show me the evidence.

I don't need to show evidence of the possibility of a God existing, because the evidence is all around us.

look at yourself. the way you ended up looking was a random occurence. From the dna from both your parents there are a infinite number of ways you could have ended up so we are nothing more than a random occurence.

Um, wrong.

You actually inherit a lot more genetic traits from your parents than what would you think. If occurance was random, if two white-skinned people had a child there could be the random chance that their child would be dark-skinned. Which is obviously not the case.

We can put forward scientific arguments or refer to Darwin.  

a lot of Darwins studies and theories about evolution failed and/or were inconclusive. As someone who believes so firmly in the infallability of science you should have already known this.

Think about why you believe in God. Does your religion truly represent what you believe? Is the world a better place because of religion?

If you’re not even willing to contemplate the issue of your faith and God then you are doing a disservice, not only to the rest of us, but to yourselves.

Why do you keep putting religion together with God? There are those who believe in God without using religion ya know...

. I cannot say that I am 100% certain that god doesn’t exist the in the same way that I cannot be certain that unicorns don’t exist.

Then you are not atheist, you are an agnostic.

Just because science has yet to find the answer does not mean it MUST BE GOD all it means is science has yet to find the answer

Your precious science will NEVER, EVER, EVER be able to find the answer to everything. Get over it.

[DDM]

Backward and forward banter is funny.

"You can't prove god exists so stop being religious!"
"You cant prove god doesnt exist so stop being an atheist!"

This thread has the answer both sides need and that answer is grow the hell up and learn to respect each other for each other and not for some underlying belief that ultimately makes bugger all difference to how each of us lives our lives.

[detonator7]

We don’t want an answer that proves God’s existence.

and thats the problem.

[KiLL3r]

and thats the problem.

lol good job taking that right out of context.


we dont want a answer we want evidence!

[spliff]

^ now how about responding to some of my arguments instead of just conveniently ignoring them...

Backward and forward banter is funny.

"You can't prove god exists so stop being religious!"
"You cant prove god doesnt exist so stop being an atheist!"

This thread has the answer both sides need and that answer is grow the hell up and learn to respect each other for each other and not for some underlying belief that ultimately makes bugger all difference to how each of us lives our lives.

Yeah, I get the feeling these arguments tend to go round and round in circles sometimes.

Though I disagree, what someone believes can have a GREAT impact on how they live their life.

[Ngati_Grim]

And please don't quote Richard Dawkins to me, I'm not interested in that tossers inept ramblings.

He's a heck of a lot more cogent than you, and I could say really bad things about you and call you names, but that won't do any good.

Do you mind if I call god a cunt?

Your precious science will NEVER, EVER, EVER be able to find the answer to everything. Get over it.

Science is always seeking and searching and readily admits that AT THE MOMENT it doesn't know everything. It probably won't know everything, but at least it tries to question and test and seek.

[KiLL3r]

^ now how about responding to some of my arguments instead of just conveniently ignoring them...

i only reply to post that warrant a reply. all your replys are nothing more than pitiful flames attempts or just plain wrong assumptions.

[spliff]

How pathetic - more like you're afraid to answer to any of my arguments because you know you are wrong.

Well there is really no need for me to participate in this thread if the majority of you are going to wallow in your own self-ignorance.

have fun

[spliff]

How pathetic - more like you're afraid to answer to any of my arguments because you know you are wrong and not willing to admit it.

Well there is really no need for me to participate in this thread if the majority of you are going to wallow in your own self-ignorance.

have fun

[Black Heart]

if its proof of God you want then just go outside.
[video]ObzQOztMaZ4[/video]
Earth is amazing, how can you not see the design and beauty of it and think that all of this just by chance, a random incidence.
How could life, everything you know, only be here because of the big bang, and then us evolving from monkeys into the complex humans that we are. Theres more to life than what you can see.

If thats true, then how did god occur ? An omnipotent being with infinite wisdom and capability just by chance occured ? or Who or what made god ?
Oh and if god can simply exist (a far more complex thing than the universe) without any reason then it's still far easier to accept a universe can exist by chance, it's not omnipotent or intelligent, or designed.

The argument that we are too complex to happen by chance is fatally flawed.

[nick247]

As an example consider electrons, protons and neutrons and the way they bond to create life. Could this process not be considered "GOD"?

If so, then isnt it irrelevent whether it is called "molecular blah de blah blah" or god?

If god exists what then? Do the theists then try and imply some other things? like that god is sentient and god created humans purposefully? Because thats where theists fail miserably.

You can point all you want to there being a force that we as humans are not yet aware of that created life, that created the way electrons, protons and neutrons stick together.

Theists will call it god, scientists might call it "blah blah science term". Its irrelevent what it is called, except for the fact that the term god implies something.....................i want the theists to stick there balls on the table and tell us what that implies

Then you might see some good debate

(seriously the whole fucking noone can prove it does/doesnt argument is done, we need to move the debate on)

oh and also what does having faith actually tangibly mean? its a nice thing to say but what do you actually mean?

do you mean you have faith that there is a higher being and good people go to heaven? that there is a higher being and thus purpose to life beyond death? that there is a higher being therefore humans arent a relatively insignificant spec in lifes timeline?

[Black Heart]

so spliff, instead of telling us how poorly science is doing, tell us how much more advancement humanity can get from christianity. I really want to know whats the big project ? I mean it's been 2008 years since christianity came up with anything new. And if you ask the 'right' ones all you get is "It's the end of the world!! REPENT!!" that got old during the black plague though.

[spliff]

so spliff, instead of telling us how poorly science is doing, tell us how much more advancement humanity can get from christianity. I really want to know whats the big project ? I mean it's been 2008 years since christianity came up with anything new. And if you ask the 'right' ones all you get is "It's the end of the world!! REPENT!!" that got old during the black plague though.

Dude, I don't believe in Christianity. I am agnostic, ask one of the Christians here (the only one being Krasher, from what I have seen so far)

do you mean you have faith that there is a higher being and good people go to heaven? that there is a higher being and thus purpose to life beyond death? that there is a higher being therefore humans arent a relatively insignificant spec in lifes timeline?

hard to say, as it is entirely subjective to what the particular person's 'faith' is, but a dictionary describes it as:

 (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof

 Something that is believed especially with strong conviction

[Black Heart]

As an example consider electrons, protons and neutrons and the way they bond to create life. Could this process not be considered "GOD"?

If so, then isnt it irrelevent whether it is called "molecular blah de blah blah" or god?

If god exists what then? Do the theists then try and imply some other things? like that god is sentient and god created humans purposefully? Because thats where theists fail miserably.

You can point all you want to there being a force that we as humans are not yet aware of that created life, that created the way electrons, protons and neutrons stick together.

Theists will call it god, scientists might call it "blah blah science term". Its irrelevent what it is called, except for the fact that the term god implies something.....................i want the theists to stick there balls on the table and tell us what that implies

Then you might see some good debate

(seriously the whole fucking noone can prove it does/doesnt argument is done, we need to move the debate on)

oh and also what does having faith actually tangibly mean? its a nice thing to say but what do you actually mean?

do you mean you have faith that there is a higher being and good people go to heaven? that there is a higher being and thus purpose to life beyond death? that there is a higher being therefore humans arent a relatively insignificant spec in lifes timeline?

If theres no intelligence guiding the process, you could hardly attribute the process to god.
Well certainly not the christian description of god.

[nick247]

well i feel a little bit more enlightened, very true black heart

so for it to be god there has to be some intelligence guiding the process, did not consider that

guess its not impossible, that something sentient created all this or at least got the ball rolling

but i guess if thats the case our idea of sentience and intelligence cannot possibly be used as a basis

Something with the power to "get the ball rolling" as i so flipantly put it, is far to complex for us humans to "relate" to.

or even worse it is not sentient as in "im going to make the universe now" it could be as simple as "oh fuck what the hell did i just do" or "i am an ant and it is my job to create"

So what does that mean for us if god exists and it is sentient?

[Tiwaking!]

^ You don't demonstrate absolute ignorance very often Grim, but that last post was off the scale - specifically your statement concerning the New Life Church.  What you so eloquently described as a "Happy-Clappy" church is a sign of change.  There is no dogmatic bullshit, if you were baptized a Christian then thats good enough for them. They don't isolate themselves from other churches like the Catholic church tends to.

The New Life is anything but fundamentalist.  Its new age, "Hip" you might say.  That happy-clappy term is derogatory off the charts.  Its called worship.  People actually enjoy service.  I dread Catholic service, alway have, always will - they're boring and un-meaningful. But you walk into a New Life service and you really do feel something.

Yes it does attract some crazys, but who cares, you welcome them in and treat them well.

I'm not terribly easy to offend, easy to enrage (lol), but your comments were offensive.

Jesus, I'm not even a Christian.

Um, Slim, I actually do know what I am talking about. I come from a family that is deeply involved in Church issues (read: Presbyterian, but also read: Christian, and liberal and concerned with human rights etc etc) and my father was involved in church politics for years (he personally knew Lloyd Geering) and was a member of the national council; and my brother is a lecturer in religious studies (specifically christianity), so I am not coming from a cold position. I have debated topics like these for years. The basic belief structure of the New Life Church is based on conservative christianity, remodelled to try to appeal to modern times. There is no way the NLC is liberal, and if you think so, then the rest of the churches must be horribly horribly conservative. It's very much like snake oil and smoke and mirrors.

Unfortunately true

In Invercargill The New Life Church is in direct contention with the many(and I mean MANY) other much older and more established religious denominations. The older denominations are currently consolidating their positions due to lack of membership. The movement away from established religious orders is nothing new. The fastest growing christian sects are Evangelical and Charismatic based. The most fundamentalist christian sects are, Evangelical and Charismatic based

I've never seen so many churches than in Dunedin, even though most of them arent even Churches anymore having turned into strip clubs, movie theaters and nightclubs. They treat their churches with far more respect in Invercargill, but most of them are closing down.

Pascals Wager

We're not even going to go there

You know, I really only have two problems with this thread, and the attitudes being thrown around in it - particularly the attitudes being shown towards people like Krasher and myself.

Firstly, assumption after assumption has been made on the behaviour of Christian peoples, especially by KiLL3r and Cobra

Then you should respond in the same manner that an Atheist would: When faced with stupidity, ridicule is the best response.

I just can't be part of this thread, no matter how interested I am in the topic.

Thats what you said last time. Dont make me find that post! In any case, I think I declared you the winner of this thread. Doesnt that count for anything?

Thanks for your time. Maybe I'll be back at some point.

You'll be back. They ALWAYS come back!

Exactly: There are no christian children, only children of christian parents!

JESUS CAMP!

Religion fills a need in the human psyche. If you don't give your kids some tools and context when they inevitably start asking themselves what the hell is it all about, and all the other whys, then they're vulnerable to people who claim to have the answers.

I'm not so sure whether religion fills a need in the human psyche. I, for one, err on the side of caution regarding that. But I do understand your point about having appropriate tools in the toolbox, with which to counter given situations.

One of the rare instances where Religion and Science overlap is in the case of Buddhism. Buddhism promotes the nurturing of what is called the 'Naieve mind', that is a mind which is totally unaffected by its environment but in the same way seeks an explanation. How does this overlap science?

Because scientific method strives for the same kind of unbiased critical thinking.

There's a great episode in "The West Wing" series 2 that talks about a lot of the crap that the bible has in it's pages - basiclaly in answer to a christian who disagrees strongly in homosexuality, and gets shot down with other stuff in the bible which could be taken literally and if it were would be abhorrent to most people.

I could have SWORN that this video has already been posted somewhere but I just cant find it:
[video]rHaVUjjH3EI[/video]

everyone who calls themselves christians get tarred with the same brush thats human nature. we like labels.
besides jesus wouldn't fight back, you're not like him at all. I'm assuming christians aim to be like jesus, that would be an ideal goal for all christians wouldn't it ? correct me if I'm wrong.

Depends. Technically New Testament Jesus was the 'Prince of Peace' and NOT the Flaming sword of death weilding Messiah that the Jews were(and still are) waiting for. Next time he turns up, he's not going to be Mr Nice. Its going to be God of War styles on all our heathen asses

Jesus spent most of his time wandering around, teaching his disciples, casting out demons, performing miracles, and preaching to large crowds.

Actually: Jesus spent most of his time not even existing. Lets go through the Jesus timeline:

Born - - 12 years old visits temple - - 33 years old and preaching - Dead - Ressurected - Lives in heaven.