Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[cobra]

That sucks. First example has little to do with Christianity, second example is a disgrace.

how can you say the first has little to do with christianity? a man is using his christian beliefs as an excuse for sexually molesting his his children

You are fighting a straw man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

gob bless krasher, you try hard but always seem to end up a little short -  not a straw man argument, read the article you linked to, it explains what a straw man argument is

[krasher]

how can you say the first has little to do with christianity? a man is using his christian beliefs as an excuse for sexually molesting his his children

gob bless krasher, you try hard but always seem to end up a little short -  not a straw man argument, read the article you linked to, it explains what a straw man argument is

Lol - if you are referring to the given excuse of 'i was possesed by the devil' then you are not necessarily referring to Christian beliefs. Firstly, you don't have to be a Christian to use 'christian beliefs' in ur defence. Secondly, even Satanists believe in the devil. Might have been a Satanist for all you know, and Satanists and witches do a lot of raping of children - I don't know this from statistics, but from victims that I have talked to.
It is a straw man argument. Most of the people defending science in this forum are fighting against a stereo type Christian that barely exists. The Straw Man.

[cobra]

Lol - if you are referring to the given excuse of 'i was possesed by the devil' then you are not necessarily referring to Christian beliefs. Firstly, you don't have to be a Christian to use 'christian beliefs' in ur defence. Secondly, even Satanists believe in the devil. Might have been a Satanist for all you know, and Satanists and witches do a lot of raping of children - I don't know this from statistics, but from victims that I have talked to.
It is a straw man argument. Most of the people defending science in this forum are fighting against a stereo type Christian that barely exists. The Straw Man.

"On one occasion he attacked one of his daughters when he saw her walking home from Bible studies with a boy."

you see i used my reading


the second example these christians are using the "power" of prayer to try to help, both you and flea seem convince of this "power", that is dangeous when superstitions get in the way of real medical help
 
"stereo type christian that barely exists", read your ignorant hate post about homosexuals, so you are part of the group that "barely exists" when i talk about hateful christians and their brainwashing of people into hate campaigns?

[Black Heart]

I find satanism absolutely fascinating, i mean they obviously worship satan, who obviously is a christian concept, so by default they must also beleive that god exists, but wilfully choose to disregard him, and choose to worship gods enemy instead.

is there an equivilent character in islam to satan ? apart from america.

[cobra]

I find satanism absolutely fascinating, i mean they obviously worship satan, who obviously is a christian concept, so by default they must also beleive that god exists, but wilfully choose to disregard him, and choose to worship gods enemy instead.

is there an equivilent character in islam to satan ? apart from america.

my understanding of satanism was that they didn't worship satan, you worship yourself - i could be wrong here

[Retardobot]

Psyche. Why do you insist to base everything you have said in this thread on "what you think" or "what you know" instead of "what is".

You think that humans will never find other life
You think that there are no other planets that can sustain us
You think that we were put on earth for a reason.
You THINK you THINK you THINK.

Just try and base SOME of your argument on research, then MAYBE some people might start taking you seriously.

At the moment you remind me of a mormon who would come to my door and tell me about his beleifs based on HOW HE THINKS it should be, not what actually is.

EDIT : Oh, and cnvrt, bugger off out of this thread, you have nor the intelligence neither the understanding of dabte to make any decent contribution.

The way you present yourself makes you come across as some brainwashed hippie.

[Black Heart]

that can't be right, it would just be called selfishism. i mean why label it satanism, if it has got no relation at all to satan.

[Retardobot]

I find satanism absolutely fascinating, i mean they obviously worship satan, who obviously is a christian concept, so by default they must also beleive that god exists, but wilfully choose to disregard him, and choose to worship gods enemy instead.

is there an equivilent character in islam to satan ? apart from america.

Hah, yeah, agree'd. You say to a christian "If you beleive in God, you must also acknowledge Satan." You then watch his/her face turn into something that can only be seen in an alternate dimension.

The greatest trick that the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he doesn't exist. - Unkown.

[cobra]

that can't be right, it would just be called selfishism. i mean why label it satanism, if it has got no relation at all to satan.

its called satanism because it is a rejections of the christians ideals of meekness and guilt and be cause the name satanism appeals to emo kids - this is all based on a "satanist" i knew about 10 years ago

[psyche]

Psyche. Why do you insist to base everything you have said in this thread on "what you think" or "what you know" instead of "what is".

You think that humans will never find other life
You think that there are no other planets that can sustain us
You think that we were put on earth for a reason.
You THINK you THINK you THINK.

Errr, it's because those are all things that (currently) cannot be proven either way - by scientists, religion or anyone else. So therefore I am merely expressing my opinion based on what research I have done and various other things I have read and discussed.

I can't say that I KNOW because there is not a single person on this Earth that KNOW's the answer to those questions...

There's nothing wrong with thinking, you should try it some time

Just try and base SOME of your argument on research, then MAYBE some people might start taking you seriously.

I do do plenty of research into various matters, just because I don't necessarily cite my source  of information every single time doesn't mean my opinion or argument isn't based on research. When it comes down it, no amount of research in the world can even begin to explain the mysteries of life and the universe, and these are the things I am particulary more interested in discussing.

The way you present yourself makes you come across as some brainwashed hippie.

That's a load of shit and you know it :disappoin

I'll respond to your post later tonight aswell Ngati, haven't had a chance...

[psyche]

Hah, yeah, agree'd. You say to a christian "If you beleive in God, you must also acknowledge Satan." You then watch his/her face turn into something that can only be seen in an alternate dimension

What do you mean? afaik Christians do believe in Satan. Ie. The fallen angel of God?

I'm not sure if they regard Satan in a more literal sense or a philosophical/metaphysical sense though.

[Retardobot]

I can't say that I KNOW because there is not a single person on this Earth that KNOW's the answer to those questions...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=450467&in_page_id=1965

10 second google search.... And if their is another planet like ours, with the same climate, water and gravity, then there is nothing stopping that planet being the home to some sort of life-form. I'm constantly hearing about new, habitable planets being discovered through the News.

Again, you have passed up ACTUAL findings and gone with what YOU THINK.

I do do plenty of research into various matters, just because I don't necessarily cite my source  of information every single time doesn't mean my opinion or argument isn't based on research. When it comes down it, no amount of research in the world can even begin to explain the mysteries of life and the universe, and these are the things I am particulary more interested in discussing.

Well, without displaying where you got your info from, then me or anyone else has no other option to think that they are your own words, your "ideas".

And again, you say "When it comes down it, no amount of research in the world can even begin to explain the mysteries of life and the universe". How the hell do you know that ? Are you going to be around in the next 500yrs ? Do you somehow know what man will be capable of through your power of "this is what i think, therefor it is".

We are pretty well on our way to unlocking a buttload of "mysteries" and even some we have already solved, we just need to devise a way of proving some theories. You seem to have almost no confidence in man's intelligence.

That's a load of shit and you know it :disappoin

Haha, no, i honestly said that because that's how you come across. I wouldn't of said it if i didn't believe it.

[Ngati_Grim]

I'll respond to your post later tonight aswell Ngati, haven't had a chance...

Come now, don't let RL get in the way :bounce:

Ok, lets not get too agreeable, this thread might become tolerable.

I disagree. This thread cannot get tolerable

[krasher]

Come now, don't let RL get in the way :bounce:

I disagree. This thread cannot get tolerable

I agree. ^^^^ Bye

[psyche]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=450467&in_page_id=1965

10 second google search....

So you instantly believe everything you read in the media or newspaper tabloids? You see, the thing is - they make it sound like it's some sort of amazing discovery when it's just another planet. If you had bothered to look into the information on this planet, something you are accusing me of not doing, you would have found that according to their research the planet is barely anything like Earth at all..

Gliese 581 c is OUTSIDE the habitable zone  No direct evidence has been found for water (an important abundant molecule) to be present, but it is likely not present due to the extremely high irridance at perihelion (see Temperature). Techniques like the one used to measure HD 209458 b may in the future be used to determine the presence of water in the form of vapor in the planet's atmosphere, but only in the rare case of a planet with an orbit aligned so as to transit its star, which Gliese 581 c is not known to do.

So no, it is not at all similar to Earth, and the chance of life developing in that kind of habitat is extremely low if not negligible.

And if their is another planet like ours, with the same climate, water and gravity, then there is nothing stopping that planet being the home to some sort of life-form. I'm constantly hearing about new, habitable planets being discovered through the News.

It needs a lot more than just 'same climate, water and gravity' to be even remotely similar to Earth. And it still comes back to the problem; scientists don't know how life first began - as I gave an example of on the previous page with the quote from Stephen Hawking (and here you are saying that I don't research any of my arguments) we have no idea how the first cell developed into life, or how DNA and RNA came to be, or where that cell came from or how it came to be on Earth. So in order for life to exist on another planet, that mysterious cell would have to miracuously find it's way onto one of these planets somehow and then do whatever it done on Earth to evolve into life. The probability of this happening is extremey low, and therefore it is my opinion that the very first cell of life came to be on Earth for a specific reason. This is merely my opinion however. But it is a very justifiable opinion imo.

Scientists can theorize 'till the cows come home but ultimately they still have no fucking clue how life itself came to be let alone how it would develop on another planet.

Let's say that we did discover life on another planet sometime in the future, what type of life do you think it would be? Do you think it would be a sentient, conscious lifeform capable of awareness and cognitive thought? Or would it just be some kind of basic organism? Would they develop emotions like humans have? What exactly are emotions? Are they just an aspect of evolution, or is there something more to it?

Even if they did find some basic living organism on another planet, I don't think that would disprove God, I'm sure there would be some purpose for those organisms to be there. Only if they found life extremely similar to humans, well then yeah... that would be some weird shit.

Again, you have passed up ACTUAL findings and gone with what YOU THINK.

If you say so

Well, without displaying where you got your info from, then me or anyone else has no other option to think that they are your own words, your "ideas".

The problem I see with constantly citing scientific research and other 'discoveries' is that, how do you know your source is credible? How do you know they didn't make a mistake, or were mislead, or are trying to force their owns views on you? A lot of science is theory, not fact. There are some scientists who vehemently claim to know the precise age of the Earth, through the study of rocks and other minerals. The problem is their methods of examination aren't necessarily 100% accurate -  the tools they use for 'dating' are flawed, and cannot predict the age of something past a certain amount of time, despite their claims that they can merely because it fits in with their explanation of evolution. This is just one example.

So I am inclined to not always take every bit of information I read on the internet or elsewhere at face value, and I am happy that I have the ability to think for myself and develop my own ideas rather than relying constantly on everything someone else says. If I am discussing something based on something I have read I don't feel the need to always cite my source of information unless I deem it necessary, why should I? Just to please you? No-one else links to their source of information every time they mention something, why the hell should I?

Man's ability to think for himself is one of the greatest gifts we have, so I don't understand why you would want to insult me for using this ability..

And again, you say "When it comes down it, no amount of research in the world can even begin to explain the mysteries of life and the universe". How the hell do you know that ? Are you going to be around in the next 500yrs ? Do you somehow know what man will be capable of through your power of "this is what i think, therefor it is".

Ugh, I was saying that no amount of research in the world at this current time can explain those things you mentioned. But in all probability we will never be able to explain these things, if you fail to see why then that's your problem. No matter how far into the future we predict, do you honestly think science will ever be able to explain the existence of the universe, of life, and reality? If you do I think you are kidding yourself. It comes down to: science, and everything it studies, all came from somewhere or something. It's going to be very difficult to explain exactly where that all came from.

There is a reason they call God 'omniscient', because God created science and knows everything there is know to about how everything works, for it is what made everything work in the first place (according to the meaning of the word omniscient)

I'm suprised I've even gone to the effort of responding to you, there is absolutely no point in arguing about who is right and who is wrong, it's a waste of my time and serves no purpose to the progression of the discussion. Scientists can happily admit that there is no way they will ever know certain things, why can't you?

Haha, no, i honestly said that because that's how you come across. I wouldn't of said it if i didn't believe it.

You're a moron then.

[ThaFleastyler]

^^
The only people I know who have that much time on their hands at 4pm are school-kids with nowhere to go after school.

[psyche]

I'm working today, but i'm currently self employed so I can take a break whenever I want

[Arnifix]

The problem I see with constantly citing scientific research and other 'discoveries' is that, how do you know your source is credible? How do you know they didn't make a mistake, or were mislead, or are trying to force their owns views on you? A lot of science is theory, not fact. There are some scientists who vehemently claim to know the precise age of the Earth, through the study of rocks and other minerals. The problem is their methods of examination aren't necessarily 100% accurate -  the tools they use for 'dating' are flawed, and cannot predict the age of something past a certain amount of time, despite their claims that they can merely because it fits in with their explanation of evolution. This is just one example.

So I am inclined to not always take every bit of information I read on the internet or elsewhere at face value, and I am happy that I have the ability to think for myself and develop my own ideas rather than relying constantly on everything someone else says. If I am discussing something based on something I have read I don't feel the need to always cite my source of information unless I deem it necessary, why should I? Just to please you? No-one else links to their source of information every time they mention something, why the hell should I?

Man's ability to think for himself is one of the greatest gifts we have, so I don't understand why you would want to insult me for using this ability..

+1 idiot who doesn't understand the difference between scientific theory and the common usage of the word. Stop wasting our time and go expand your mind elsewhere.

+1 idiot who thinks he's smarter than incredibly intelligent scientists. Grats on your idiot points, idiot.

+1 idiot who refuses to quote his sources because they either don't exist or are batshit crazy christian schienche websites. The purpose of this thread is to debate issues regarding science and religion, and by not quoting your sources you're wasting our time, again.

Grim, would you care to ream Christian Schienche 101 here on his hilarious ideas about radiocarbon dating? I'm guessing that's up probably one of your alleys.

[psyche]

No, you're an idiot. Why should I have to link to a source everytime I say something? I have to go out and find exactly where I read every bit of information everytime I mention something? That would be a major pain in the ass and no-one else does it for obvious reasons, so why should I have to

I may not be 100% correct about the carbon dating thing but from what I have read, no their results are not completely accurate,this would confirm it (assuming this source is credible) obviously it's out of my area of expertise so I can't say anything for sure but my point was not everything scientific is always as accurate as what they make it out to be, due to human error, limits of technology, ect ect. hence why I don't take EVERYTHING I read on the internet or some news article at face value

I'm wasting your time? And you honestly think I give a shit? If it's such a problem for you put me on ignore then cockfag, instead of having a holier-than-thou egotistical wank over yourself.


edit/ ok just noticed the link to the carbon dating article was on some christian website it seems, so it might be biased. But still, I've read the exact same thing in a few different places, that carbon dating is not as accurate as some scientists claim it to be. Meh, it's irrelevant anyway I was just using it as an example.

[Retardobot]

I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that. I think this, i think that.

I'm sorry. I didn't find any credible source to take you seriously. You just went on assumptions without backing them up. I may have been wrong in that link i provided, but i didn't start off with "I know there are planets out there that a like earth because i believe it". I went out and tried to provide some evidence.

[psyche]

now I can see why you call yourself Retardo...

[Retardobot]

No, you're an idiot. Why should I have to link to a source everytime I say something? I have to go out and find exactly where I read every bit of information everytime I mention something? That would be a major pain in the ass and no-one else does it for obvious reasons, so why should I have to

I may not be 100% correct about the carbon dating thing but from what I have read, no their results are not completely accurate,this would confirm it (assuming this source is credible) obviously it's out of my area of expertise so I can't say anything for sure but my point was not everything scientific is always as accurate as what they make it out to be, due to human error, limits of technology, ect ect. hence why I don't take EVERYTHING I read on the internet or some news article at face value

PS. eat a dick ginga-fro

It's a debate, you have to freaking provide sources or you lose. Ever watched or taken part in a debate before ? Probably not.

Oh, and btw, i think you can remove yourself from this thread now. The instant you start slinging insults in the form of gutless remarks like that then you instantly relinquish any intelligent upper hand you may of had, either it be with your opponent or the people viewing/reading.

[Retardobot]

now I can see why you call yourself Retardo...

OH SHAZZAM, that's original......

[psyche]

It's a debate, you have to freaking provide sources or you lose. Ever watched or taken part in a debate before ? Probably not.

It's a shame that you see it as some kind of competition. I've already told you why I don't constantly provide a source all the time, most of the time I do my best to if I deem it necessary, and that's not good enough for you then I really couldn't give a toss..

Oh, and btw, i think you can remove yourself from this thread now. The instant you start slinging insults in the form of gutless remarks like that then you instantly relinquish any intelligent upper hand you may of had, either it be with your opponent or the people viewing/reading.

I think it's adequate for an insult to be met with an insult in response, if that's the level we are going to stoop to. And if this is the case, as Arnifix has indicated, then yes I would probably rather not be involved in this thread.

also, I would say that it is in fact you who is the only one being a waste of space in this thread, I responded to your post in a decent manner and you have done nothing but moan about sources. If you think i'm talking a load of made-up codshit, find the evidence to refute my claims instead of having a whinge about it. If you're not even going to bother listening to my point of view or anything I say, why even bother arguing in the first place?

[KiLL3r]

when it's just another planet

sums you up right there.


just another planet huh? You claim this planet was made by some higher entity and is perfect, yet another similar planet is "just another planet" :disappoin

then yes I would probably rather not be involved in this thread.

you say that on every page. yet you are still here

WHY?