Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Arnifix]

There is a reason why humans have become able to understand and learn about so much the universe and how it works, and that is because the universe was created in a way that would specifically be able to be understood by our minds.

Actually, it's because the brain is a surprisingly resilient organ, able to reroute sensory inputs to different areas of the brain if the area that input is meant for is damaged. To assume that the universe was designed for humans is an act of supreme arrogance. Idiot.

Asshole ses what ?

What? Oh damn. You've rumbled me. Fair cop though.

[psyche]

Actually, it's because the brain is a surprisingly resilient organ, able to reroute sensory inputs to different areas of the brain if the area that input is meant for is damaged. To assume that the universe was designed for humans is an act of supreme arrogance. Idiot.

Now, since we are the product of the creation of the universe, I think it is fair to assume that since we have somehow developed the gift of a functioning brain that can discover the universe in a way that is understandable to us, it is not merely coincidence.

If you sincerely believe the universe was not created with humans in mind, why was Earth created? Why did it have every possible condition that is suitable for human life to live in, while no other planet seems to?  If you believe humans are not the only intelligent lifeform in the universe, what exactly other kind of lifeforms do you think would be out there in the universe?

The fact is if Earth was anywhere else in the universe, we wouldn't have had the ability to discover the universe and how it works, because a) Earth is located in the perfect place in the universe for scientific discovery, b) if it had ended up anywhere else, the conditions wouldn't have been right or our planet probably would have been swallowed up by a black hole or something.

As an atheist i dont have to explain how the universe wasnt created by a superior being because i dont believe in a superior being! Theres hardly a need to prove something which hasnt been proven to begin with.

No, but you need to explain logically how everything could come from nothing by mere coincidence and work effectively instead of being completely random and chaotic.

You really have no idea wtf you're talking about, do you? >_< Just reading your post, a lot of the things you just said make absolutely no sense. Sorry, not trying to insult you or anything, but yeah you're not making sense.

[psyche]

As an atheist i dont have to explain how the universe wasnt created by a superior being because i dont believe in a superior being! Theres hardly a need to prove something which hasnt been proven to begin with.

No, but you need to explain logically how everything could come from nothing by mere coincidence and work effectively instead of being completely random and chaotic.

You really have no idea wtf you're talking about, do you? >_<

[KiLL3r]

i hope your not going to ignore my post as you have with others that require you to think for yourself

[Ngati_Grim]

guff and other guffy stuff

I'm eating dinner atm, but I'm gonna enjoy this one! :rnr:

[psyche]

I'm eating dinner atm, but I'm gonna enjoy this one! :rnr:

Don't bother, I'm not giving anything you say any credibility anymore after the whole 'multiverse' thing :disappoin

Anyway, I think the argument has come to a conclusion. You think the existence of everything somehow came to exist from nothing completely by random chance, and that science is one day somehow going to explain it all. I think that's an absolute crock of shit, and you're a delusional brainwashed atheist nutter.

What more is there to discuss?

[Retardobot]

Don't bother, I'm not giving anything you say any credibility anymore after the whole 'multiverse' thing :disappoin

Aren't you going to ask him to join your club ? You lost your credibility with everyone here looong ago, yet your still trying your best.

And i know you don't have me on ignore, you like being the center of attention far to much.

[nzjeebs]

I bet kill3r hasn't, but he sees fit to criticize it anyway, because he's a gigantic noobie.

But you haven't either and your defending it? O.o Thats how i see it anyway, haven't read the whole saga.

I would only read it so i could better criticize it.

If the world is so complex, so sophisticated that it required intelligent design, then wouldn't the designer also be so complex that it requires intelligent design? and so on....

[psyche]

But you haven't either and your defending it? O.o Thats how i see it anyway, haven't read the whole saga.

I'm not defending it. Remember though, there is a lot of historical evidence surrounding the Bible, and the recountings are from real people in our history, and since it is written by so many people all telling the same thing, I don't think it would be fair to instantly dismiss it as a bunch of crazy loons writing fictional stories for shits and giggles.

We have a very mysterious ancient history, and unless you were actually there I don't think it would be good to critisize any of it.

Also, if anything else, one of the good things about the Bible from what i've seen is that the scriptures are very good and wise teachings of character, morals, love of your fellow man, respect and appreciation of nature, ect. ect. and so forth. To be honest, if more people followed the teachings of the Bible the world would be a much happier place.

Not trying to convince you or anything, but yeah just remember it is an ancient, sacred book with a lot of deep meaning to it (both literal and non-literal) and historical evidence to support a lot of it, so it would probably be a bit more wise to respect it rather than critisize it, mainly because you have no basis with which to critisize it.

If the world is so complex, so sophisticated that it required intelligent design, then wouldn't the designer also be so complex that it requires intelligent design? and so on....

Already been explained. Many, many, many times. In fact probably on the previous page I explained it, for like the 50th time, to kill3r.

[KiLL3r]

i hope your not going to ignore my post as you have with others that require you to think for yourself

:disappoin

it's too non-sensical for me to reply to coherently, try re-thinking it and posting it again. I responded to one part of it sufficiently.

once again avoiding the issue

[nzjeebs]

The idea of Christianity seems to be that all those who doubt god's infinite love are destined to an eternity of suffering and pain.

(This is me catching up with the last 150+ pages, will respond to some messages when i think iv got something worthwhile to add)

[Simon_NZ]

If you sincerely believe the universe was not created with humans in mind, why was Earth created? Why did it have every possible condition that is suitable for human life to live in, while no other planet seems to?  If you believe humans are not the only intelligent lifeform in the universe, what exactly other kind of lifeforms do you think would be out there in the universe?

Life and the environment found on Earth do not mesh by coincidence, and you have your causality reversed.

It is not the environment of earth that conforms to the needs of life, rather it is the function of life to conform to the features of the available environment. As a single example, if the Earth were too hot for the proteins currently present in our bodies, the organisms on earth would be composed of different proteins.

Life adapts to fit the niche, not the other way around.

Evolution is not the same thing as coincidence. Evolution is a process of incremental refinement of living systems measured against their successful interaction with their environment. After millions of generations, it is no surprise that this process of incremental refinement would result in organisms well suited to the environment of Earth.

Finally, the "Environment of Earth" is a vastly variable theatre in which life makes its way. There are organisms which function under terrestrial extremes of temperature, pressure, light and darkness that would easily kill organisms from other terrestrial environments.

A given living thing is not perfectly suited to life on the whole Earth - only in a very small subset of the Earth's environmental scope. Yet, the entire Earth, with the exception of the most hostile parts of it's core and the most rarefied heights of it's atmosphere, is home to life.

Also, The 'Goldilocks Proposition' is utter nonsense.
The Earth is not perfectly suited for life. Quite the reverse, life is perfectly suited to Earth.
At least, the kind of life found on Earth is; who knows what kind of life might be found on other planets in the universe? If there is any at all, it would have to be suited to that (or those) planet(s), and may well be totally unsuitable and so unable to survive on Earth.

And, from our perspective, our whole reality seems so "perfectly suited" for us to live. But, is it really? Would an intelligent designer create so much useless space? Why send comets and meteors to the Earth to wipe out millions of species if it's all so "perfectly suited?" Why have disease and painful death? Why does childbirth hurt? Why are our bodies so fragile? Why do some animals eat others? If I was designing a life-sustaining habitat, I would certainly make it more hospitable than this one.

[KiLL3r]

I'm not defending it. Remember though, there is a lot of historical evidence surrounding the Bible, and the recountings are from real people in our history, and since it is written by so many people all telling the same thing, I don't think it would be fair to instantly dismiss it as a bunch of crazy loons writing fictional stories for shits and giggles.

We have a very mysterious ancient history, and unless you were actually there I don't think it would be good to critisize any of it.

Also, if anything else, one of the good things about the Bible from what i've seen is that the scriptures are very good and wise teachings of character, morals, love of your fellow man, respect and appreciation of nature, ect. ect. and so forth. To be honest, if more people followed the teachings of the Bible the world would be a much happier place.

Not trying to convince you or anything, but yeah just remember it is an ancient, sacred book with a lot of deep meaning to it (both literal and non-literal) and historical evidence to support a lot of it, so it would probably be a bit more wise to respect it rather than critisize it, mainly because you have no basis with which to critisize it.

the bible is terrible at recounting history accurately. On friday night i watched the history channel show "Riddles of the bible" which despite the first 3/4 being completely bias towards the bibles view having me yelling NO, NO ,NO! eventually the truth came out at the end. Throughout the entire show religious "scientist" where trying to prove the story of David vs Goliath.

They wanted to show that david and his son existed. Yet not one scrap of evidence of them has ever been found. The only thing that they could find that mentions a david is a half cracked rock slab with some runes that translate to say "House of David". hardly conclusive evidence.


The other attempt to prove his sons existence was his palace that supposedly was the most magnificent palace ever. consisting of gold plating engraved cherubs and nymphs along the walls and a room composed entirely of solid gold.  Of course there is no evidence for this palace in israel. There is though a palace in Syria (to the north of israel) which has the same design with engraved cherubs in the rock. Most likely the writers of the david & goliath story used this temple in their story and simply embellished it.


The last point was Goliath himself who besides being extremely tall also had bronze armor 100's of years before bronze armor ever existed. It just so happens the story was written around the greek era where bronze armor was prevalent.


samuel 17:4 The Philistine army had a hero named Goliath who was from the town of Gath and was over nine feet tall. 5 He wore a bronze helmet and had bronze armor to protect his chest and legs. The chest armor alone weighed about one hundred twenty-five pounds. He carried a bronze sword strapped on his back, 7 and his spear was so big that the iron spearhead alone weighed more than fifteen pounds. A soldier always walked in front of Goliath to carry his shield.


Need i say more about the inaccuracies of the bible?

[Arnifix]

If you sincerely believe the universe was not created with humans in mind, why was Earth created? Why did it have every possible condition that is suitable for human life to live in, while no other planet seems to?

Earth was not created. Also, stop willfully ignoring the post that pointed out that humans would not have evolved if earth was not suitable for human survival.

[psyche]

stuff

Dude, it was 1000's of years ago. After being translated through 100's of different languages, over 1000's of years. Also realize that the Bible is not written by one person, it is written by many different people based on their experiences, I think it's undertandable that everything in the Bible would not be completely accurate to the very letter of the word. While there are inaccuracies, there are also many accuracies and predictions about the universe and mankind made long before we even made the discoveries

one example would be the Bible teaches that 'life is in the blood' - for a long time scientists thought that life was provided by the function of the brain, when in fact that is wrong and it has only recently been discovered that life does in fact come from the blood (I don't know the technical details, I could find a link if you want). That is just one example off the top of my head, there are many others.

Also the story of David & Goliath was in the city of Babylon wasn't it?

All that remains today of the ancient famed city of Babylon is a mound, or tell, of broken mud-brick buildings and debris in the fertile Mesopotamian plain between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, in Iraq.

Well if that's all that is left of Babylon, then of course there is going to be distinquishable evidence left...


fuck, I'll respond to your post later if I can be bothered Simon, need to take a break from this thread.

[psyche]

stuff

Dude, it was 1000's of years ago. After being translated through 100's of different languages, over 1000's of years. Also realize that the Bible is not written by one person, it is written by many different people based on their experiences, I think it's undertandable that everything in the Bible would not be completely accurate to the very letter of the word. While there are inaccuracies, there are also many accuracies and predictions about the universe and mankind made long before we even made the discoveries

one example would be the Bible teaches that 'life is in the blood' - for a long time scientists thought that life was provided by the function of the brain, when in fact that is wrong and it has only recently been discovered that life does in fact come from the blood (I don't know the technical details, I could find a link if you want). That is just one example off the top of my head, there are many others.

Also the story of David & Goliath was in the city of Babylon wasn't it?

All that remains today of the ancient famed city of Babylon is a mound, or tell, of broken mud-brick buildings and debris in the fertile Mesopotamian plain between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, in Iraq.

Well if that's all that is left of Babylon, then of course there is not going to be any distinquishable evidence left...


fuck, I'll respond to your post later if I can be bothered Simon, need to take a break from this thread.

[Simon_NZ]

fuck, I'll respond to your post later if I can be bothered Simon, need to take a break from this thread.

Unfortunately there is nothing to respond to, you have your causality all wrong.  

Earth was not hospitable at it's conception, and only through millions of years has life adapted to fit the this niche, not the other way around.

Unless you're trying to say that the Earth is only 6000 years old? That would fit a strict interpretation of scriptural creation...

[KiLL3r]

wow id get better responses from a brick wall.

Free yourself from stupidity! CLICK HERE!

[psyche]

You have some serious, serious problems kill3r.

[KiLL3r]

Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

Sorry i cant hear over the sound of how ignored you are!

[Ngati_Grim]

Now, since we are the product of the creation of the universe, I think it is fair to assume that since we have somehow developed the gift of a functioning brain that can discover the universe in a way that is understandable to us, it is not merely coincidence.

Your base assumption is flawed and untestable

If you sincerely believe the universe was not created with humans in mind, why was Earth created? Why did it have every possible condition that is suitable for human life to live in, while no other planet seems to?  If you believe humans are not the only intelligent lifeform in the universe, what exactly other kind of lifeforms do you think would be out there in the universe?

We've already covered this yet you accuse others of obfuscation.

The fact is if Earth was anywhere else in the universe, we wouldn't have had the ability to discover the universe and how it works, because a) Earth is located in the perfect place in the universe for scientific discovery, b) if it had ended up anywhere else, the conditions wouldn't have been right or our planet probably would have been swallowed up by a black hole or something.

a)well, yes it works quite well for us, but that doesn't exclude that IF the Earth and us were elsewhere we wouldn't be making scientific discoveries.
b) I'll go with the 'or something' option.

You really have no idea wtf you're talking about, do you? >_< Just reading your post, a lot of the things you just said make absolutely no sense. Sorry, not trying to insult you or anything, but yeah you're not making sense.

It would appear, that in this instance, 'sense' is in the eye of the beholder. But it would also appear that your eye is brown, puckered and all gunked up.

you're a delusional brainwashed atheist nutter.

Now, that's the quality of post I love from you.

Also, if anything else, one of the good things about the Bible from what i've seen is that the scriptures are very good and wise teachings of character, morals, love of your fellow man, respect and appreciation of nature, ect. ect. and so forth. To be honest, if more people followed the teachings of the Bible the world would be a much happier place.

But, hang on , I thought you hadn't read the bible :

Quote:

View Post

Just as an aside, how many of you have read the bible or any other religious texts?

I haven't, but I am going to start reading the Bible very soon, I am very interested in it and fascinated to learn about the history.

I have read the bible (the product of a good presbyterian upbringing), parts of the Talmud and Koran, parts of the Bhagavad Gita and some of the Mahabharata, as well as some of the philosophical concourses that accompany them, as well as studied the Phenomenology of Religion and comparative religion, so I too, have been searching for answers as to the origins of life, the universe, and everything. Yet, by far the best, most plausible, and cogent discussions about this come, for me, from Scientific discoveries and application. I'm not JUST a geologist who studies rocks. I am, also, a thinking, creative, empathic human being who questions his own existence and seeks knowledge.

I'm not defending it. Remember though, there is a lot of historical evidence surrounding the Bible, and the recountings are from real people in our history, and since it is written by so many people all telling the same thing, I don't think it would be fair to instantly dismiss it as a bunch of crazy loons writing fictional stories for shits and giggles.

Ah, you see; it hasn't been INSTANTLY dismissed. It took time. But as people emerged from under the rock of religious bondage and started to think for themselves and question their existence, based on the observable world, they began to dismiss it, more and more.
Yes, categorically there are some historical accuracies in the Bible. There are, however, a lot of historical innaccuracies, and as such doesn't count for much as a display of god's power.
Do you have any idea about how many times the Bible has been rewritten, translated, changed to suit the times; how many books were removed, how the 'word of god' was changed?

Not trying to convince you or anything, but yeah just remember it is an ancient, sacred book with a lot of deep meaning to it (both literal and non-literal) and historical evidence to support a lot of it, so it would probably be a bit more wise to respect it rather than critisize it, mainly because you have no basis with which to critisize it.

If you haven't read it, then you have no basis with which to defend it.
Historical evidence? Tell me about Noah's Ark and the Flood, for starters?

Life.....Earth.... proteins...different proteins.... niche...Evolution...result in organisms well suited to the environment of Earth.


And, from our perspective, our whole reality seems so "perfectly suited" for us to live. But, is it really? Would an intelligent designer create so much useless space? Why send comets and meteors to the Earth to wipe out millions of species if it's all so "perfectly suited?" Why have disease and painful death? Why does childbirth hurt? Why are our bodies so fragile? Why do some animals eat others? If I was designing a life-sustaining habitat, I would certainly make it more hospitable than this one.

I suppose you will put Simon on ignore soon enough, as he is saying things that have been repeated and ignored. I, for one, think he has some good points to make, but whether a reply will be forthcoming (as in a proper reply, thought out and lacking insult) or not is yet to be seen.

there are also many accuracies and predictions about the universe and mankind made long before we even made the discoveries

Come on, give us more than blood!

[psyche]

The problem is, it's too much having this entire topic condensed into this one thread like this, we need seperate threads for seperate topics - it's confusing responding to multiple arguments from different people in one go, especially with the annoying forum interface.

fucking wall of text gives me a headache

[Ngati_Grim]

fucking wall of text gives me a headache

How do you find books or journals? Or do you just look at the pictures? :asian:

[psyche]

lol, hilarious. Ever considered stand-up comedy? you'd be a riot

[Retardobot]

lol, hilarious. Ever considered stand-up comedy? you'd be a riot

Yeah, he'd use your posts as his material.