"ever" is a bit presumptious in some ways. I do agree with you , but only in a pedantic way, based on the position that any entity described scientifically will cease to be a god.Lets say that no scientific theories supported by the data we currently have, require the universe to be created i.e intentionally made by a sentient entity.reply to edit: It's also possible for someone to firmly believe that some gods or other did it, but continue with scientific enquiry to figure out how.
Space Euphoria: Do Our Brains Change When We Travel in Outer Space?In February, 1971, Apollo 14 astronaut Edgar Mitchell experienced the little understood phenomenon sometimes called the “Overview Effect”. He describes being completely engulfed by a profound sense of universal connectedness. Without warning, he says, a feeing of bliss, timelessness, and connectedness began to overwhelm him. He describes becoming instantly and profoundly aware that each of his constituent atoms were connected to the fragile planet he saw in the window and to every other atom in the Universe. He described experiencing an intense awareness that Earth, with its humans, other animal species, and systems were all one synergistic whole. He says the feeling that rushed over him was a sense of interconnected euphoria. He was not the first—nor the last—to experience this strange “cosmic connection”.Rusty Schweikart experienced it on March 6th 1969 during a spacewalk outside his Apollo 9 vehicle: “When you go around the Earth in an hour and a half, you begin to recognize that your identity is with that whole thing. That makes a change…it comes through to you so powerfully that you’re the sensing element for Man.” Schweikart, similar to what Mitchell experienced, describes intuitively sensing that everything is profoundly connected. Their experiences, along with dozens of other similar experiences described by other astronauts, intrigue scientists who study the brain. This “Overview Effect”, or acute awareness of all matter as synergistically connected, sounds somewhat similar to certain religious experiences described by Buddhist monks, for example. Where does it come from and why?Andy Newberg, a neuroscientist/physician with a background in space medicine, is learning how to identify the markers of someone who has had the experience. “You can often tell when you’re with someone who has flown in space,” he says, “It’s palpable.” Andy scans brains for a living: praying nuns, transcendental mediators, and others in the act of focused states.Newberg can pinpoint regions in subjects’ gray matter that correlate to these circumstances. Newberg is seriously looking at how to fly equipment that could study—in action—the brain functions of space travelers. If this Overview Effect is a real, physiological phenomenon—he wants to watch it happen.
Oooh I see, I have a 'retarded world view', so George Lemaitre, Einstein, Gregor Mendel, Newton - they were all retards man, 'cause Cobra said so.
How am I misquoting scientists? If a scientist doesn't want their quote to be used they shouldn't make the statement in the first place. Funny that accuse me of misquoting scientists, but you don't accuse Ngati of misquoting Einstein. Hmm, wonder why...
Also, I came across this hilarious article at a website called PositiveAtheism, by a guy claiming the entire Big Bang theory is a conspiracy cooked up by religious people to try and trick scientists, and that George Lemaitre brainwashed Einstein into believing him.Gold.http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/huascar.htm
Dawkins just reminds me again of the quote, "It amazes me to find an intelligent person who fights against something which he does not at all believe exists"
Easy, because a lot of scientists that mention God get treated with skepticism by some other scientists and it can also risk their career. There was an article that I was going to post that talks about the numerous scientists that deliberately do not talk about God or their true beliefs publically in fear of it risking their scientific career, but I can't find the article atm.. Were it not for Einstein and other scientists help promoting George Lemaitre's theory, we might not have ever known about the beginning of the universe.. (many were too stubborn to accept his proposal because of his religious belief)
How is some of the greatest minds in our history that believed in God as the cause of the universe not a decent argument to use? You are saying that I am a retard for thinking that the universe was created, you are also saying that these many scientists are/were retards aswell.
Strawman argument. Cobra made no reference to any of those people, it is you saying this not him. You are putting words into his mouth and then discrediting his argument using those conjured words.
1. Misrepresenting big bang theory as being proven, i.e. being the actual truth and not a possible truth.Ngati Grim: "It is not proven that the universe was created." <-- correctPsyche: "Yes it is. It's called the Big Bang theory. I would suggest looking it up." <-- fail
2. Misrepresenting Richard Dawkins by misquoting him.Psyche: "Recently, Richard Dawkins claimed that all life on Earth, originated from a one-cell organism that was delivered to the planet by intelligent alien beings." <-- failBlackheart: "so that youtube clip at 2:10.... 'now I don't really beleive thats happened on this planet...' " <-- Correct
"It could be that at some earlier time somewhere in the universe a civilization evolved by, probably, some kind of Darwinian means to a very, very high level of technology and designed a form of life that they seeded onto, perhaps, this planet," "Now that is a possibility, and an intriguing possibility."- Richard Dawkins.Mr. Mathis said Mr. Dawkins' observation was amusing. "If it's a space alien, it's 'an intriguing possibility.' If it's God, you're delusional," he said. "That pretty much sums up the debate."
Rael presents us with a third option: that all life on earth was created by advanced scientists from another world.
3. Denying the evidence of Zoological studies into sentience and self awareness.Quote:"To date, only humans, orangutans and chimpanzees have passed objective tests of mirror-recognition."
[4. Misrepresenting Relativity and the Big Bang Theory (my personal favorite).
However, the big bang was not what we consider to be a conventional explosion. Instead, the model is of the expansion of space. the 'explosion' is one filling space with all of the particles, rushing away from one another. What existed prior to this event is completely unknown, and at present is a matter of pure speculation. The big bang did not occur at any point in time or space. The big bang created time and space. The singularity did not appear in time or space, but everything, space, time, energy and matter, began inside the singularity. Particles of matter and antimatter began rushing apart from one another, creating time and space as they moved through the vacuum where nothing existed before.
This also applies to you, you believe the atheist reality (non-existence of deities) does not exist, yet you fight to prove it wrong.
Anyway, this quote paints Ghandi as a fool for not understanding the human desire to stand up for your beliefs.
And now we can add Conspiracy Theorist to your list of achievements. Congrats.Science evaluates on the merits of ones findings, not some prejudice against ones belief system.The irony is that historically things were precisely the opposite of what you suggest. In fact atheists were murdered by theists quite frequently. Denying god was considered in the same light as witchcraft.
This clumsy attempt to use this straw man argument only serves to discredit you further. Aristotle believed in Zeus. Was he then a retard? Because by your logic, he was. Your logic. Not ours - yours.
You are also speaking from authority and it does not make a point any more correct. What if some of the greatest minds were religious? These people are considered great minds because of their scientific achievements, not because of their creed.
And as I expected you didn't reply to any of my other posts. You are very predictable.
Read this article - was very interesting.Not sure how it applies to this thread, but at least its different to the same old bickering between psyche and everyone.Full read:http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2008/05/space-euphoria.html
very nice posts flea and ape.I think some people just have a hard time believing that they are not here for any specific purpose, that they are here purely by chance. But once they stop believing they have a divine purpose they can then truly understand everything around them did not come from a supernatural entity.
themselves. Including Einstein, and I wholeheartedly agree with them.What exactly makes you believe the universe could be the product of mere chance? Please explain.
Everything happens by chance. just look at our history. Look at dinosaurs if they hadnt of been killed off by an asteroid do you still think we would be the dominant species?Of course not, but by mere chance that asteroid hit the earth and wiped them out giving humanity free reign to become the dominant species.So the same applies to the universe. Sure we don't know what caused it but chances are it was an accident, it definitely wasn't caused by a supernatural being with an intelligent design. Why create dinosaurs and wipe them out? Explain to me how intelligent design explains extinction?
And no, everything does not happen by only chance. Is it chance that the fine-tuned physical constants that govern everything in the universe turned out so perfectly aswell?
Whats to say they are perfect?How do we know they arnt screwed up and if they were perfect we'd all be able to fly and live 1000's of years without aging?Also maybe the reason they do suit us perfectly is because we evolved. Im sure if they were different in some way we could have ended up looking totally different.i thought you didnt believe everything scientist say but now your using them to back your arguments :confused:
Cobra was claiming that I am retard for thinking the universe was created. If he seriously believes i'm a retard for thinking that, then he thinks everyone else who believes the universe was created with purpose is a retard; which include people like Einstein, Lemaitre, Newton ect ect.
The Big Bang theory is all but proven. As more and more new evidence mounts, all of it is pointing to a finite universe that evolved from a point of singularity some billion years ago and is steadily expanding today. Alan Guth: "Anyone who doesn't accept the Big Bang theory is essentially considered by the community as a crackpot." And the Big Bang theory is essentially the creation of the universe, it's the 'coming into being' of all physical existence as we know it.
Did you see this post that I quoted a couple of pages ago?
Oh wow. I guess we should start dressing up chimps and allowing them a fair education aswell and the right to vote eh?
That is exactly right. We don't know exactly what was before the Big Bang, and we may never know, but we do know that spacetime BEGAN with the universe.
See if this gives you a better understanding:
I don't really fight to prove it wrong, like I said atheism is a bit of a joke to me, I just don't take it any of it very seriously because I can't find much of any merit in any atheistic ideas about the universe. If people can seriously believe that the existence of everything that we know came from nothing for absolutely no reason or purpose, that is their intellectual failing, not mine.
Wait, Ghandi didn't stand up for his beliefs? GHANDHI?
It is actually true that many scientists don't speak publically about their beliefs due to risking their career. If I could find the article you would see it is very common due to the stigma of religious connotations in scientific study.
Lots of fucked up shit happened in medieval times. I was talking about present-day time, not thousands of years ago.
Nope, he wasn't a retard. He believed in a 'higher power' as the most plausible explanation of existence as we know it, he just happened to call it "Zeus".
In the beginning there was an empty darkness. The only thing in this void was Nyx, a bird with black wings. With the wind she laid a golden egg and for ages she sat upon this egg. Finally life began to stir in the egg and out of it rose Eros, the god of love. One half of the shell rose into the air and became the sky and the other became the Earth. Eros named the sky Uranus and the Earth he named Gaia. Then Eros made them fall in love.
Actually they are probably considered great minds based on their merits in their scientific study and outside it. To say they were only considered great minds solely because of their scientific discoveries is a bit ignorant, and insulting to their memory.
Haven't had a chance yet, I need to do a bit of research before I can come up with a decent reply to some of your posts (if at all)
uh oh, someone's getting frustrated :eek: You seem to be clutching at straws a bit with your responses now aren't you?
no i just can't be bothered wasting time with you now, if you don't get it you don't get it.
But an agnostic also looks at the possibility that our existence occurs in just one of many infinite possible universes. This explanation is backed with mathematics. And if the universe could talk, mathematics would be it's language.
Agnosticism is a perfectly respectable and tenable philosophical position; it is not dogmatic and makes no pronouncements about the ultimate truths of the universe. It remains open to evidence and persuasion; lacking faith, it nevertheless does not deride faith. Atheism, on the other hand, is as unyielding and dogmatic about religious belief as true believers are about heathens. It tries to use reason to demolish a structure that is not built upon reason.
You are not agnostic. You believe in intelligent design. That means you believe there is an intelligent designer. That is not agnostic.You are a theist. Actually, you sound more like a Deist. But I'm not sure yet.
Then this makes you a DEIST not a THEIST. You believe in A divinity, but not a specific one. This distinction is very important when trying to discuss matters of faith with others
I know a good solution to this problem, but then no-one seems to listen to me anyway so fuck it.
Psyche, I don't know if you noticed, but its pretty much you against this entire community
It's only because the majority of this community are idiots intent on making the 'new guy' look bad
The irony is that historically things were precisely the opposite of what you suggest. In fact atheists were murdered by theists quite frequently. Denying god was considered in the same light as witchcraft.
Coincidentally, this is exactly what the Raëlians believe.
I don't really think anyone needs to claim you are a retard, your comments are enough to establish this as a observable truth.
Who cares anyway? It's just a label. All labels serve to do is divide people from each other more than we already are.
The statistical improbability of the universe and all physical existence coming into existence from nothing by mere CHANCE, is extremely high. You still haven't really explained how you believe the universe could have come from nothing or just always existed by chance or randomness alone.
Tiwaking, out of all the people that post in this thread, your posts are always by far the stupidest. Didn't I already tell you NOT to reply to my posts? All you do is respond with a load of misinformed, miscontrued bullshit. Have you ever noticed why I only seem to respond to other people's arguments and never yours? It's because you don't OFFER any coherent arguments apart from trying to constantly criticize me with absolutely no basis for your criticism. Minuscule is the mind that accuses someone of being a hypocrite yet is unable to even explain why one is a hypocrite - that's the most arrogant form of hypocrisy possible!Yes we know you are scientifically-minded (or atleast pretend to be) Congrat-u-fucking-lations. And while you limit yourself solely to the pursuit of nothing else but scientific knowledge, never even thinking about anything other than the how the universe works; everyone else who is wise will pursue knowledge in all areas and become more enlightened about the universe than you will ever be. Don't respond to my posts. Thank you.
Sorry you feel that way, if you really don't want to continue the discussion with me then that's fine, I won't waste my time either. I think there's a few things that you 'don't get' either.
Not really an accurate description of agnosticism either.. not all agnostics think that 'our existence occurs in just one of many infinite possible universes' or even consider the possiblity, being an agnostic is more about not making any assumptions or predictions about the ultimate truth of life and the universe, whatever that may be.
Interesting how we both came to the same conclusion about Psyche dirtyape
