Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[brucewillis2]

religion is a crock. It's the biggest sham to exist. All these people believing in some mystical being that will save them from their misery. Some are so brainwashed they can't even see the bullshit. An ark, sticks to snakes, pillars of fire, parting the sea. Someone had a good imagination years ago and people believed it happened. Come on!! wake up, there's no god sitting up in heaven looking down.

All Mr.God would need to do to get everyone following him, is send his son down again and start doing all these miracles like he did. Why does this not happen? because he doesn't friggin exist.

The mind boggles at all these blind faith followers. :finger::newangel::firedevil:angel::santa2:

[Retardobot]

All Mr.God would need to do to get everyone following him, is send his son down again and start doing all these miracles like he did. Why does this not happen?

Because it would no longer be called "faith". That's the corner-stone of religion, faith.

[mish]

Hi Bruce.

You may have just revived the thread...

[ThaFleastyler]

I believe (no pun intended) that Grim was meaning that there is essentially no difference in believing the pope is gods right hand man, and believing in the bible. Essentially they are both assertions of opinion based without solid reason. And that makes them irrational to a objective observer.

... but what if you're wrong? This whole thread has been based around the opinion that the non-believers are right, but what if they aren't?

You're right, they would seem irrational to an objective observer who doesn't believe in God. Yet for those - like myself - who do believe in God, its not irrational at all - its an important distinction to make. The key thing that makes it irrational is that to think it is you have to share your particular viewpoint that God is not real, which I don't.

On Skeptics Guide this week, a guy wrote in asking the team what evidence it would take to convince them of something they didn't believe - the guy writing in, for example, was an atheist who thought about what it would take for him to believe in God. The conclusion he came to is that he couldn't - even if the age of the earth was shown to be wrong, or evolution was disproven, he believed he would just think that "the science had been wrong so far, and they'll figure it out" - similarly, he considered that even if God Himself showed up, he would merely feel that he had some kind of mental problem, and would seek professional help for it.

The point I'm getting at is this: people all look at the same thing, but see different things. We're never going to agree 100% on some of this stuff. But, and I say this in the nicest way possible, your opinion is no more valid than my opinion, and your conclusions no more or less correct than mine. We're equal in this discussion.

Is there a God or not? I believe there is, you believe there isn't. But at the end of the day, it doesn't really make a lick of difference - we both still have to get up each morning, go to work, support a family, fit in to society, obey the same laws, drive our cars, buy our shopping, live our lives. Where God is concerned, we make our choice and live with it. End of story.

[ThaFleastyler]

Why does this not happen?

Further to what InMotion said, it also doesn't happen because by proving His own existence, He would essentially be removing free will. How could you choose whether or not He exists if its abundantly clear that He does?

[Arnifix]

Further to what InMotion said, it also doesn't happen because by proving His own existence, He would essentially be removing free will. How could you choose whether or not He exists if its abundantly clear that He does?

Because people could still choose not to worship.

[robbyx]

Because people could still choose not to worship.

Exactly....he did send his own son to Earth and people still chose not to believe....some even went so far as to kill him...but he did "save" some.....he could do the same thing again, but for some reason he doesnt.
Also i dont believe any christian has any buisness using the term "free will"....."believe in me or spend the rest of eternity in hell" doesnt sound like a choice to me....more like a threat.

[brucewillis2]

Further to what InMotion said, it also doesn't happen because by proving His own existence, He would essentially be removing free will. How could you choose whether or not He exists if its abundantly clear that He does?

What? He's already done it 'supposedly' by sending downloading jesus. So you're saying it doesn't happen when 'supposedly' accordingly to the bible it already has. I'm saying why doesn't he do it again.

But it's not just Christianity that's crap its all the other religions as well. So many different gods to worship. Can't they just get together and believe in one story.

http://www.leaderu.com/wri-table2/God.html <-- too many to choose from when my life has no meaning.

[brucewillis2]

Also i dont believe any christian has any buisness using the term "free will"....."believe in me or spend the rest of eternity in hell" doesnt sound like a choice to me....more like a threat.

perfect! couldn't of said it better myself.

[psyche]

religion is a crock. It's the biggest sham to exist. All these people believing in some mystical being that will save them from their misery. Some are so brainwashed they can't even see the bullshit. An ark, sticks to snakes, pillars of fire, parting the sea. Someone had a good imagination years ago and people believed it happened. Come on!! wake up, there's no god sitting up in heaven looking down.

All Mr.God would need to do to get everyone following him, is send his son down again and start doing all these miracles like he did. Why does this not happen? because he doesn't friggin exist.

The mind boggles at all these blind faith followers. :finger::newangel::firedevil:angel::santa2:

Ugh, so much idiocy in one single post. Unfuckingbelievable.

[Retardobot]

Ugh, so much idiocy in one single post. Unfuckingbelievable.

Ugh, so much idiocy in one single post. Unfuckingbelievable.

OH SHI-

[Arnifix]

That's also one of my main issues with god. Most Christians depict him as loving, but you read the bible, and he's pretty fucking brutal. At the end of the day, I simply find it hard to believe that a being depicted as benevolent, omniscient and as the ultimate arbiter could act in such a way.

He almost seems like a comic book super-villian at times. The power to create the world, make men from earth, yet to cleanse the world he floods it? It seems illogical.

That link is interesting Bruce, it was a nice way to sum things up. Buddhism is fascinating.

[Ngati_Grim]

religion is a crock. It's the biggest sham to exist.

Yep, I concur. I've tried to play nice most of the time, but sometimes there have been people (used in the loosest sense possible) that just need a big blunt object.

... but what if

 and your conclusions no more or less correct than mine. We're equal in this discussion.

Is there a God or not? I believe there is, you believe there isn't. But at the end of the day, it doesn't really make a lick of difference - we both still have to get up each morning, go to work, support a family, fit in to society, obey the same laws, drive our cars, buy our shopping, live our lives. Where God is concerned, we make our choice and live with it. End of story.

Lots of conjecture...

My conclusions are provable (on the whole) whereas your conclusions are faith-based. That's not equal.

It does make a lick of difference because we live in a society tainted by christianity (mainly)/ and other religions and it's fucking hard to try to get out of the minefield it has created.

Ugh, so much idiocy in one single post. Unfuckingbelievable.

I like it better when you actually engage your grey matter and post like you did at the top of this page


There's a lunchtime lecture today at god soc where they are questioning whether god is a delusion. My bet is they will bag Dawkins but not really get anywhere else.

Also, they are questioning whether science excludes god.
I say it should, because it is not testable.

Religion is like Alcoholics Anonymous. It provides a crutch for the weak...12 step programme...stations of the cross?
Transferable addictions...the opiate of the masses.

God is non-existent.You believers are deluded.  :finger:

[psyche]

I like it better when you actually engage your grey matter and post like you did at the top of this page

I like it when other people can do the same, but we can't have everything can we.

Religion is like Alcoholics Anonymous. It provides a crutch for the weak...12 step programme...stations of the cross?
Transferable addictions...the opiate of the masses.

I don't need religion to make me feel comfortable about life. That's not what it means to me at all.

God is non-existent.You believers are deluded.  :finger:

Atheists are the only deluded ones sorry. Ever wonded why atheism is a minority in every single country in the world? That's why.

So according to your logic, people like Einstein, Max Planck, Lemaitre, Newton... arguably some of the most intelligent scientists in the world - these people were all deluded? Because you say so? Fucking fail some more why don't you.

[ThaFleastyler]

My conclusions are provable (on the whole) whereas your conclusions are faith-based. That's not equal.

See, where science is concerned, you and I probably agree on 99.9% of the stuff we could look at. I just also believe God exists in some form.

That's really the main problem with non-believers; they all think they are right and aren't willing to concede on anything - including an unwillingness to tolerate beliefs that are different than theirs.

And lets not forget that "believing in God" is a helluva lot different than "removing science from schoolrooms", yet the approach taken most of the time here towards believers is the same. Yes I believe in God. But that doesn't automatically mean I want to promote creationism, or remove the teaching of evolution from schools, or have compulsory prayer times in parliament, or outlaw homosexuality, or give 10% of our national wealth to charity, or any number of other assumptions that have been made about me. It really rubs me the wrong way when I get tarred with the same brush as someone like the Pope or Kirk Cameron or the Discovery Institute or Pat Robertson, whose beliefs are almost as different from mine as they are from yours.

It does make a lick of difference because we live in a society tainted by christianity (mainly)/ and other religions and it's fucking hard to try to get out of the minefield it has created.

OK, name one way that Christianity has effected you personally in a negative way WITHOUT it being tied to you "just getting annoyed at it" because you find it annoying.

(everyone else can play along too come on, lets hear it!)

God is non-existent.You believers are deluded.  :finger:

It must be so easy to dismiss faith as such

[Arnifix]

OK, name one way that Christianity has effected you personally in a negative way WITHOUT it being tied to you "just getting annoyed at it" because you find it annoying.

I cannot shop many days of the year at many stores I would normally frequent, because it has been made illegal based on Christian beliefs.

[Ngati_Grim]

I like it when other people can do the same, but we can't have everything can we.




I don't need religion to make me feel comfortable about life. That's not what it means to me at all.

So if there were no religion would you feel as comfortable?

So according to your logic, people like Einstein, Max Planck, Lemaitre, Newton... arguably some of the most intelligent scientists in the world - these people were all deluded? Because you say so? Fucking fail some more why don't you.

Cheers...you haven't read any other posts in this thread, have you...you don't seem to be able to take into account historical context, and seem to be obsessed with Einstein being religious, when he wasn't (as has been shown many times in this thread). You are one who needs that big club. :asian:

[psyche]

So if there were no religion would you feel as comfortable?

I think religion should be something personal, not organized. You can't take that away, and religion isn't going anywhere any time soon. Get used to it.

Cheers...you haven't read any other posts in this thread, have you...you don't seem to be able to take into account historical context, and seem to be obsessed with Einstein being religious, when he wasn't (as has been shown many times in this thread). You are one who needs that big club. :asian:

No, he wasn't. But he still believed in God. There are also plenty of extremely intelligent scientists and philosophers that believe(d)  in God. Are they all deluded aswell? Just stop trying dude, you are failing too much.

was watching an interesting documentary last week, Einstein's Unfinished Sympthony. Not long before his death, when he was working on his Theory of Everything, he had a conversation with his nurse.


Einstein (noticing the crucifix she is wearing): "You believe in God?"

Nurse: "Yes, I do..... Do you? "

Einstein: "Do I believe there is someone who plans the daily life of Albert Einstein? No. But sometimes I think he may have been leading me up the garden path."

Nurse: "But didn't he make the garden?"

Einstein: "I think, he is the garden."

"And isn't he the gardner too?"

"Yes, and all my life I have been trying to catch Him at his work."

that sounds almost pretty religious to me.

[Ngati_Grim]

OK, name one way that Christianity has effected you personally in a negative way WITHOUT it being tied to you "just getting annoyed at it" because you find it annoying.

Well, Arni has said one of the more common ones.
How about years of lost time going to church and being force fed lies and bullshit and fear?
How about the abuse of children by feeding them lies and bullshit and superstition?
How about being bombarded with the associated crapola because it is so emmeshed in society that it is hard to escape?


Psyche...religion is organised, faith is personal


Yes, I believe they ARE deluded.

[Retardobot]

Atheists are the only deluded ones sorry. Ever wonded why atheism is a minority in every single country in the world? That's why.

So you are saying that minorities are deluded?

Why?  

Are you then referring to the fact that the majority is usually correct?

Why?

You are a minority in this thread, by YOUR logic you are calling yourself deluded which is something i don't really disagree with.

[psyche]

Well, Arni has said one of the more common ones.
How about years of lost time going to church and being force fed lies and bullshit and fear?

Being taught that murder, rape, discrimination and other evil acts is wrong, is a bad thing? No-one is forced to go to church, people choose to.

How about the abuse of children by feeding them lies and bullshit and superstition?

What lies and superstition? That's just your opinion. Your opinion doesn't mean shit. Kids eventually grow up to the point where they can make their own informed decisions about life so don't give me that crap.

How about being bombarded with the associated crapola because it is so emmeshed in society that it is hard to escape?

Religion is a part of our culture, it always has and always will be. Again, get used to it or continue living your life as a pathetic, bitter person with nothing but cynicism. Doesn't worry me.

Yes, I believe they ARE deluded.

Then you have just proved that the only one whom is deluded is yourself, unfortunately. There are good reasons why these men were so convinced of their belief in God, and it was not to make them 'feel comfortable about life' or any other silly excuse you have to offer.

[Retardobot]

Children are forced to go to church all the time, whether or not they believe in Jesus/God.

Gets to a point where they don't have a choice NOT to believe, they end up being conditioned.

[psyche]

So you are saying that minorities are deluded?

Why?  

Okay, I worded it wrong. Atheists are just plain deluded anyway, not because they are a minority. They are a minority because atheism doesn't make much sense and doesn't appeal to anyone of any true intellectual capability.

Are you then referring to the fact that the majority is usually correct?

Why?

No, not at all. But I think there are some good reasons why the majority of the world are either religious or agnostic.

[psyche]

Children are forced to go to church all the time, whether or not they believe in Jesus/God.

Gets to a point where they don't have a choice NOT to believe, they end up being conditioned.

Children get forced to do a lot of things unfortunately. That's just part of being a child. Kids that go to church generally go just to be a part of the church activities with the other kids, and maybe get taught some important and helpful life lessons in the process, how is this a bad thing? The only exception would be places like Evangelistic churches and those crazy nutters from that documentary Jesus Camp for example which is pretty shocking.

I attended church a few times when I was young, I don't have a single bad memory about it, apart from being a little bored sometimes. (and no, my beliefs are not influenced by attending church when I was younger) I grew up, contemplated life with my own rationality, and have come to my own conclusions just like any other intelligent person should be able to.

But like I said, I think religion should be something personal, I'm pretty sure God wants us to just live our lives, not sit in some dusty old church singing hymns every Sunday. But if people see it as a community thing that they enjoy attending, then that is their choice and I am not one to be judgemental.

[psyche]

I was thinking last night, would I be right in assuming that most atheists, or many atheists, believe in reincarnation or some form of reincarnation?