Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Menial]

hoary old chestnut thursday I see.

[Simon_NZ]

hoary old chestnut thursday I see.

spank me

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

cool, expect a long post from me soon.

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

Jesus is not the son of God

Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

Ok, say God does exists, he created our universe, now, he is all powerful, and not constrained by the laws of time and space like we are. He can exist anywhere and at anytime.

Now, if God created the universe, he most know what exactly is going to happen from the moment of it's creation and what what will happen in it for all eternity.

So if he knew what was going to happen, then he could design the universe so he would know what would happen, then why would he need to intervene by sending his own son in? If he is superpowerful, then when he created the universe he would of created the universe that would not require intervention later on.

No i'm not denying that a man called Jesus existed 2000 years ago, and i'm sure he was a pretty cool guy, and he may of himself thought he was the son of God, Which is most likely God plan, because he made the universe. However God would have known that all this would happen, thus he wouldn't need to send his actual son it to fix up problems which he himself created when he could of just created a solution to the problem when he created the universe, or just not created a problem in the first place.

Once God created the universe, he wouldn't need to do anything except sit back and watch, if the universe progressed a way that he did not like, thus causing him to intervene, this means that he is subject to time (because he couldn't see it coming, and then needed to fix it up) and part of our universe, and if he's part of out universe he couldn't not of created it.

Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

Does God Exist?

Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

Now for part two.

For most of my life I have believe in God, not in the way that most religions believe in him, I try to separate myself from that, I believe in a powerful force, outside our universe, thus unbounded by the laws of space and time, and that we are connected to this force by our soul, and when we die, our soul would continue as part of this powerful force.

I call this force God, because it's just easier that way.


However this theory concerns God as the creator of our universe, and whether our universe even needs a creator. Say, that are are infinite versions of our universe, as I have discussed in this thread http://forums.iconzarena.co.nz/showthread.php?t=17767

Each version of the universe is slightly different, the difference could be something like a person deciding to go left or right, or the chance of a uranium atom decaying or not in a given time. However as well as infinite universe of different timelines there could also be infinite universe which have different laws of nature then ours. For example, in another universe, everything could be the same as ours except the gravity is slightly stronger, or the electromagnetic force is slightly weaker. Therefore our universe is just one of the many which just happens to have the right laws needed in order for everything to work.
If a universe had too much gravity, then it may slow the expansion and crush all the matter before life had the chance to exist, or of the universe had too much dark energy, the dark energy could force galaxies and stars apart, thus solar systems could never form.

Now, out universe seams to be perfect for us, thats why many believe is was design for us by a higher power, now what i'm saying is that it needn't be designed, as all possible designs already exist, we just happen to be in one that works. And for universes which don't work, life would not come into existence, therefore there would be no one to ask these questions.

[ThaFleastyler]

Disclaimer: I need to first point out that I am no theologian, I have no qualifications, and furthermore, the below is my own opinion. That is all.

Originally posted by Spacemonkey:
Now, if God created the universe, he most know what exactly is going to happen from the moment of it's creation and what what will happen in it for all eternity.

So if he knew what was going to happen, then he could design the universe so he would know what would happen, then why would he need to intervene by sending his own son in? If he is superpowerful, then when he created the universe he would of created the universe that would not require can intervention later on.

AHHHH!!!!!!!
/runs outside and slams door








OK, seriously though, lets start at the start. As is my understanding, God created the universe (also a handy answer for "what was before the Big Bang?") and created man in His image. However, we are not forced to do anything - for example, God says to Adam to not eat fruit from the tree. He doesn't make it so that Adam can't get to the fruit, He simply says not to (but as we all know, Adam inevitably did ... after a woman showed up  :heheh: )

The reason why God sent His son, Jesus, to earth was as a visible, tangible evidence of His love for the human race. Preachers will tend to accentuate the "He gave His ONLY son!" in their message, and for good reason. He loved us so much that He was willing to give up His son (an interesting aside for me has always been this: if God is actually a trinity, ie: Father/Son/Spirit, then really He was willing to sacrifice a part of Himself, not just His son).

Then of course there is the small matter of Jesus' conquering death  :sunnies:

God sacrificing Jesus for all of us was less to do with having to, and more to do with proving His love for us and showing the lengths He was willing to go to in order that we might see His love, grace and mercy for how great it really is.

Originally posted by Spacemonkey:
Once God created the universe, he wouldn't need to do anything except sit back and watch, if the universe progressed a way that he did not like, thus causing him to intervene, this means that he is subject to time (because he couldn't see it coming, and then needed to fix it up) and part of our universe, and if he's part of out universe he couldn't not of created it.

Again, I think this comes down to the fact that we do have free will - yes, God has a plan for our lives, but I think that we have ultimate decision on what happens to us. God merely intervenes when we are falling off the path He ordained for us. I always think of life as being a straight road which we keep crashing on - God is the guy who gets us out of the ditch, fixes up our beaten wagons, fills them with gas, and gets us on our way, then drives beside us incase it happens again.

Thats my own thoughts anyways.

[ThaFleastyler]

Originally Posted by Spacemonkey
However this theory concerns God as the creator of our universe ... Now, out universe seams to be perfect for us, thats why many believe is was design for us by a higher power, now what i'm saying is that it needn't be designed, as all possible designs already exist, we just happen to be in one that works. And for universes which don't work, life would not come into existence, therefore there would be no one to ask these questions.

No offence, but that theory is dependent on String Theory or Parallel Universes Theory being correct, neither of which are proven to be. But it is correct to assume that if a universe exists for every possible scenario, then there has to be one which is perfect for life to advance as far as it has.

Personally, I subscribe to Intelligent Design. Think of some of the miracles of creation: more or less gravity and we wouldn't be here; more or less sunlight, and we wouldn't be here; there are an infinite number of variables that led to us being here, and I don't know how they could be given over to chance. The universe is so finely balanced that the only possible explanation is that it was designed by a superior power (aka God). Occam's Razor tells me this is the simplest explanation.

Which begs the question: why would things be more complicated than this comparatively simple explanation? The only answer I have so far is that if there is no God then such a system would be necessary.

[BerG]

Ahh, the old "If you had all the 747 parts lying in the junk heap, whats the chance a tornado would put them all together into a ready to fly aircraft!?"

Probably about 1:100000000 right?

So that means that if you had 100000000 junk heaps with 100000000 lots of 747 parts and 100000000 tornados, chance shows that one tornado would assemble the parts into a complete 747.

Look at the infinite number of galaxies in the universe, most of which probably have no life, due to the variables not coming together properly to create life. Here, in our galaxy, one planet met all those requirements. Its bound to happen mulitple times in the universe.

[Arnifix]

*** Houston, we have ignition ***

[dirtyape]

Organic material found in meteorite proves to be older than our sun. I think this gives some credability to the nemesis star theory at it being the mother of life on Earth (back about page 7)

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/11/061130-meteorite.html

it's not life, but it is organics clusters, whats more they reckon it formed at near absolute zero...

[Black Heart]

Personally, I subscribe to Intelligent Design. Think of some of the miracles of creation: more or less gravity and we wouldn't be here; more or less sunlight, and we wouldn't be here; there are an infinite number of variables that led to us being here, and I don't know how they could be given over to chance. The universe is so finely balanced that the only possible explanation is that it was designed by a superior power (aka God). Occam's Razor tells me this is the simplest explanation.

Which begs the question: why would things be more complicated than this comparatively simple explanation? The only answer I have so far is that if there is no God then such a system would be necessary.

if the universe is so complex it needs to have a creator, then that creator also must need a creator, for his complexity would be far higher, ad nauseum.

and your example of gravity, if there were more gravity all life on earth would be 'stouter', less and it would be lighter/slimmer taller. we're a product of our enviroment, our enviroment isn't a product of our peculiar needs. that part of evolution is pretty much proven. the part of evolution thats not proven (and its major) is how did life start, and to have a more complete evolutionary map.

I doubt this universe is perfect, and i doubt its well balanced. given the time frame i'm sure it'll all fly to bits soon enough. and the 'universe for every action' theory is pretty hugely flawed aswell.

[BerG]

   

There is no God! after being raised my whole life christian i've come to the stunning conclusion that God has never existed and was bred out of nessecity. Humans are screwed up!

.

[ThaFleastyler]

^^^
Random.

If you really think there is no God, I've got a billion people worldwide who would love to disagree with you.

On a different tangent, this may have been covered, but tell me again: what do people here think was before the Big Bang? Even if such an event were true, the real chance is that there was still time (in its most basic sense) and a universe in which the Big Bang occurred, thus meaning the universe is most likely infinite, both in terms of time and space. The only other thing I know of that is infinite, in terms of time, space (and ability) is God.

[Steady]

Prove it.

[Simon_NZ]

2nd. Prove it.

[ThaFleastyler]

How? I'm sure I don't need to explain that the existence of God is a personal belief - each person needs to discover it for themselves, and to the non-believer it is as theoretical as any other idea about the beginnings of time and space.

I could share story after story about the evidence I've experienced myself, as to the existence of God, but what would be the point? As a vehement non-believer until age 22, I was exactly the same as what you guys are - "prove it". And then He did.

If you want scientific based arguments, rather than reinvent the wheel, check out the "Arguments for the Existence of God" section on this page at Wiki. To me, most things point to the existence of God.

[Zarkov]

After a while, everyone believes in me.

[Arnifix]

RAPTOR POPE FOR JESUS GOD!

[Equity]

Ahh, the old "If you had all the 747 parts lying in the junk heap, whats the chance a tornado would put them all together into a ready to fly aircraft!?"

Probably about 1:100000000 right?

So that means that if you had 100000000 junk heaps with 100000000 lots of 747 parts and 100000000 tornados, chance shows that one tornado would assemble the parts into a complete 747.

Look at the infinite number of galaxies in the universe, most of which probably have no life, due to the variables not coming together properly to create life. Here, in our galaxy, one planet met all those requirements. Its bound to happen mulitple times in the universe.

yeah and thats freaky haha. cant wait to see what kind of other forms of life there are out there! be awesome.

[Equity]

.

i wouldve plus repped you but i cant.

that was an awesome full stop...


lol was meaning the whole post...

[Zarathrustra]

God is dead.

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

^^^

On a different tangent, this may have been covered, but tell me again: what do people here think was before the Big Bang?

No such thing, there is no 'before' the big bang. The word 'Before' is related to time, time and space were created in the big bang.

However, if God did exist, he would not be constrained by time and space, so he could still exist if the universe did not.

[ThaFleastyler]

No such thing, there is no 'before' the big bang. The word 'Before' is related to time, time and space were created in the big bang.

However, if God did exist, he would not be constrained by time and space, so he could still exist if the universe did not.

Thats the thing - something had to cause the Big Bang, thus creating space and time. Time and space don't just come from nowhere. THe Metaphysical Argument for the existence of God states (taken from Wiki):

Framed as an informal proof, the first cause argument can be stated as follows:

Every finite and contingent being has a cause.
Nothing finite and dependent (contingent) can cause itself.
A causal chain cannot be of infinite length.
Therefore, there must be a first cause; or, there must be something which is not an effect.

In religious argument, God is identified as the "cause", since He is the only thing known that can exist without space or time. This question of what was before the Big Bang is really the key argument in the whole Big Bang/God thing. The only thing that could have been before the Big Bang is God.

[Black Heart]

what created god ? it's obvious god is not a simple 'entity' god is complex, and complex things do not just 'occur' they (snigger) evolve.

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

Thats the thing - something had to cause the Big Bang, thus creating space and time.

As with 'before', the word 'cause' is also related to time, therefor the concept of cause and effect is part of our universe. The Big bang cannot have a cause, because 'cause and effected' was created at the big bang.

The only thing that could have been before the Big Bang is God.

But there is no before.