Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Dr Woomanchu]

I'd argue that being non religious would make it easier to study religion.

[ThaFleastyler]

Being non-religious would make it easier because you wouldn't have a bias. That said, whether studying religious history or theology, I would think you would need to have a healthy respect for the subject matter, whether you agree with it or not.

[Dr Woomanchu]

Being non-religious would make it easier because you wouldn't have a bias. That said, whether studying religious history or theology, I would think you would need to have a healthy respect for the subject matter, whether you agree with it or not.

All you need is a respect for people. Religious beliefs of all sorts are too widespread amongst all cultures to be otherwise treated. A study of the widespread beliefs that people hold, and the cultural, biological, evolutionary or factual basis of them would be fascinating to me, yet I have little respectrfor some of the specific beliefs that are held.

[Ngati_Grim]

A study of the widespread beliefs that people hold, and the cultural, biological, evolutionary or factual basis of them would be fascinating to me, yet I have little respectrfor some of the specific beliefs that are held.

Better said than my lame attempt...however, I don't think one needs to 'respect' the subject matter to be able to attempt to understand it

[Dr Woomanchu]

A belief, or meme, is more than an item of data that is True or False. T/F is a significant part of the meme, but the debate is confined to either speculation on Unknown, or crackpots who want to invoke Goddidits proposition that F = T when god is a constant c, defined by whichever inerrant textbook they're using.

What interests me personally is beyond T/F; Context, history, biology et al. I'll always approach it from a rationalist perspective, because that's me. Others approach the material from a spiritual, or emotional perspective. Vivé la difference.

[cobra]

The fascists and Klansmen will be pleased to hear that.

thats a valid point, you believe these groups should have no barriers to having clubs on campus, flea? - any hate group really doesn't have a place on campus but i wouldn't support them being banned

[dirtyape]

Being non-religious would make it easier because you wouldn't have a bias. That said, whether studying religious history or theology, I would think you would need to have a healthy respect for the subject matter, whether you agree with it or not.

And would the Christian have a "healthy respect" for the Taoist? Or the Muslim? Or the Satanist?

"Oh yes, i respect them, but they believe in a pile of horse shit."

errr... yeah

[ThaFleastyler]

thats a valid point, you believe these groups should have no barriers to having clubs on campus, flea? - any hate group really doesn't have a place on campus but i wouldn't support them being banned

Again with comparing Christians to hate groups like nazis and ku klux klan. There is no comparison there, and imo, anyone who puts them on the same kind of moral level is a fool. You could far easier show that nazis were comparable to Amnesty International or Red Cross. Obviously allowing groups that are harmful towards others or bigoted towards sectors of society to meet is not a good idea.

In fact, hey, heres an idea Cobra: STFU with your blatant anti-Christian hate speech, or GTFO. Your opinion would be alot more welcome and informative if you weren't such a jerk about it, and weren't stating it just to get a rise out of people.

And would the Christian have a "healthy respect" for the Taoist? Or the Muslim? Or the Satanist?

"Oh yes, i respect them, but they believe in a pile of horse shit."

errr... yeah

Point taken. Respect for the person, as Woohoo pointed out, is probably more important than respect for the subject matter/beliefs. Of course, if you didn't have an interest in the subject matter, why would you study it? And it could be argued that respect for a belief would need to be in place before any interest in it could follow.

Unless your interest was merely to learn how to dismiss it more efficiently

[dirtyape]

Point taken. Respect for the person, as Woohoo pointed out, is probably more important than respect for the subject matter/beliefs. Of course, if you didn't have an interest in the subject matter, why would you study it? And it could be argued that respect for a belief would need to be in place before any interest in it could follow.

Unless your interest was merely to learn how to dismiss it more efficiently

It is interesting to learn as it has a impact on social interaction, psychology, and many other things. A peoples belief system, and the history and development of that belief system throughout the ages is a fascinating subject. It touches on many aspects of society, and has long and far reaching consequences for the future.

How many leaders have used religion for their agendas?

All the successful ones.

I think that perhaps the most interesting thing is the mechanism that allows an individual to ignore all common sense, all logic, all evidence, and still believe in something that has been proven to be untrue. We can all think of examples of this.

[cobra]

Again with comparing Christians to hate groups like nazis and ku klux klan. There is no comparison there, and imo, anyone who puts them on the same kind of moral level is a fool.

flea, a lot of christians are bigots, need i remind you of krashers hate speech against homosexuals earlier this thread, and the view that if you don't agree with them you are going to, and deserve to, spend an eternity burning in hell - that is kinda hateful. there is also the harm they cause towards others, either with the promoting lies or general hatred (abortionist being shot in america for one example) - I have have reasons to believe that christian groups are hate groups like skinheads and the klan (well the klan is a christian group) and your agument against is just "stfu" and that period when you were crying for an admin to have me banned (a turn around on your whole free speech thing you have been preaching recently) - I am happy to debate this if you have any reasons for your claims that its an unfair comparison but so far you have provided no evidence and no arguments - you just saying it's not the case is not a very strong position and then abusing me because my view is different tends to put weight to wards my argument of the whole christians being intolerant thing

Obviously allowing groups that are harmful towards others or bigoted towards sectors of society to meet is not a good idea.

now you don't believe in free speech? also you will find that defining "harmful towards others" and "bigoted towards sectors of society" are subjective, who is going to be the judge of these things? and why have you decided these are the qualities that can be censored? i personally would like to add promoting ignorance, i believe ignorance is the seed for hatred - you will see the trouble with censorship is an arbitrary line needs to be drawn in the sand, yours would be between skinheads and christians while mine would be after christians - it is just easier to go with free speech all the way and hope people are smart enough and educated enough to make responsible decisions

[nick247]

nice post cobra

im not saying i agree but that was a really good reply

You really cannot lump Christian groups into one box, because we all know there is such a range of beliefs amongst Christians, some really are as bad as alot of people here say but most are very nice people just trying to do some good

Some of us here are like, they are evil they do these bad things and some of us are like no they are saints they do all these good things and we wonder why we sometimes struggle to understand each other..........well its because we are arguing about different things.

Its like two people talking on the phone and one guy is saying its really cold and the other guy is saying "its hot you are crazy and out of your mind for believing it is cold".....turns out one is from the southern hemisphere and the other from the northern

Where i sit is that i think Christians need to accept the darker side of their choosen religion which they are a part of. They need to be the ones pushing OUT of the box they have been put in, not us non-believers trying to pull them out.

For instance we might say "your religious group sucks because of XYZ you are no better than the KKK", the reply should be "we know and my particular group is all about changing that and being better than that"

A reply like that gives me hope

[nick247]

oh and as a quick aside.......to the Christians, the people posting in this forum thing on the NZherald site are NOT HELPING your cause

http://blogs.nzherald.co.nz/blog/your-views/2008/8/13/witchcraft-suitable-syllabus-topic-massey-university/?c_id=1501154&commentpage=18

[Arnifix]

Holy shit nick. I'm pissing myself over here.

[nick247]

ITS NOT FUNNY lol

these people are going to vote and probably have or will have children

that is scary to me

[ThaFleastyler]

nice post cobra

im not saying i agree but that was a really good reply

You really cannot lump Christian groups into one box, because we all know there is such a range of beliefs amongst Christians, some really are as bad as alot of people here say but most are very nice people just trying to do some good

Some of us here are like, they are evil they do these bad things and some of us are like no they are saints they do all these good things and we wonder why we sometimes struggle to understand each other..........well its because we are arguing about different things.

Its like two people talking on the phone and one guy is saying its really cold and the other guy is saying "its hot you are crazy and out of your mind for believing it is cold".....turns out one is from the southern hemisphere and the other from the northern

Where i sit is that i think Christians need to accept the darker side of their choosen religion which they are a part of. They need to be the ones pushing OUT of the box they have been put in, not us non-believers trying to pull them out.

For instance we might say "your religious group sucks because of XYZ you are no better than the KKK", the reply should be "we know and my particular group is all about changing that and being better than that"

A reply like that gives me hope

Now thats a good post nick
I think I can agree with most of what you've said.

The only problem is that within Christianity there are so many differing belief systems, mostly based on exploitation or twisting of the Biblical text. Yes, I share the same God and the same Bible as the KKK, but thats it - my beliefs, even the beliefs of the entire branch of Christian thinking that I find myself aligning with, are as different from the KKK's beliefs as yours are. So in that regard, no, I'm not going to say "yeah, I know my religion sucks, its all fucked up, sorry", since first off, I don't actually ascribe to any particular religion (I don't consider Christian belief a religion, since it really doesn't need a particular framework - which, as is my understanding, a religion does), and second of all, my thinking and my understanding of God and of the Bible are so different from theirs as to be completely unrelated.

Yes, there is a darkside to religious thinking and biblical understanding, but I'm not going to be apologetic for all of it. The bible can be made to say whatever you want it to say (we've seen it done in this thread by anti-Christian people), and some people think it says "hate this particular group" or "be bigoted towards those people". I think thats perverse, as I'm sure you do.

Would you apologise for the KKK?

That said, I do understand that there is a dark side, even to the church or denomination that I belong to - people are always out to exploit what they can, and in the church that means exploiting the bible and making it say things that it really doesn't, mostly for personal gain (note: I'm 99.999999999999999% sure it doesn't happen in my church).

Pastors have embezzled money or run off with the offering or lined their own pockets at the expense of the people. Pastors and leaders have exploited their position to take advantage of followers sexually. Pastors and leaders have purposely, knowingly misled followers. I do know that this is happening, but my beliefs - and those shared by the church I belong to - cause me to try and aspire to be more than that, to be better than that.


If I could rant a moment ...

The real problem with this particular discussion here is that there are so many different points of view from so many different people, its nearly impossible to keep track of, particularly when there are so few who share my particular viewpoint.

For example, I tried to respond to Philo's post about creationism-in-the-science-building, and before I've really gotten my head around it, my initial response is being turned around as if I believe that hate groups should be allowed to meet on campus, THEN before I get to respond to that, I'm confronted with Cobra's comment that Christianity is a hate group too. On top of that, theres Dirtyape's utter dismissal of god, theres tangents I brought up about the virtual particles ... it all adds up, its bloody hard to follow, and before the pro-Christian people get to respond in most instances, a decision or agreement among the community has already been made, leaving our comments as mere footnotes.

I don't mean to sound like I'm whining, but honestly, I could spend 12 hours a day just researching and responding to stuff in this thread Not only that, but this thread is reflective of life as a modern day Christian - most, if not all, the questions raised here are raised on a regular basis in real life, and I don't have any better answers for them either. So as you can imagine, its hard enough trying to keep track of everything WITHOUT having to apologise for the KKK on top of everything when I really don't agree that I should have to.


I'm tired. Sorry if this loooooong post makes no sense whatsoever

[Arnifix]

ITS NOT FUNNY lol

these people are going to vote and probably have or will have children

that is scary to me

That, to me, is proof that there is no god.

[ThaFleastyler]

oh and as a quick aside.......to the Christians, the people posting in this forum thing on the NZherald site are NOT HELPING your cause

http://blogs.nzherald.co.nz/blog/your-views/2008/8/13/witchcraft-suitable-syllabus-topic-massey-university/?c_id=1501154&commentpage=18

Holy shit nick. I'm pissing myself over here.

ITS NOT FUNNY lol

these people are going to vote and probably have or will have children

that is scary to me

I didn't laugh
I can't believe I share a God with those people.

Although, this kind of demonstrates what I was saying about groups even within Christianity having completely different beliefs - those people are fundamental, and they can't see the forest for the trees; on the other hand, I see no reason why its not a good idea - if you're studying religions, why wouldn't you study wicca or whatever? Seems to me that leaving it out would be like doing 6th form calculus, but leaving out quadratic equations.

[Arnifix]

I didn't laugh
I can't believe I share a God with those people.

Although, this kind of demonstrates what I was saying about groups even within Christianity having completely different beliefs - those people are fundamental, and they can't see the forest for the trees; on the other hand, I see no reason why its not a good idea - if you're studying religions, why wouldn't you study wicca or whatever? Seems to me that leaving it out would be like doing 6th form calculus, but leaving out quadratic equations.

I wouldn't say you do. Unless you are not telling us your real views of the world.

[ThaFleastyler]

I wouldn't say you do. Unless you are not telling us your real views of the world.

I meant the same God as the Christian people

[Arnifix]

I meant the same God as the Christian people

I know you did. That's what I was referring to. I don't see why you should have to agree that they worship the same god as you, simply because they say they are Christians. And even if they say they are Christian, does that mean that you are? Or are you simply spiritual, with a healthy respect for moral tales?

[nick247]

you misunderstand im not asking for you to apologise for the bad parts of Christianity more to be aware and actually accept them which is EXACTLY what you did so this is really a very minor criticism, semantics really

The attitude that we non-believers see the most is not the above (or below, i forget how this forum works). We get the attitude that Christianity can do, and has never done, any wrong and it is infallible. So most of us tend to concentrate on the easier arguments because when arguing against a perfect religion those arguments win.

The minute someone stands up and saids yeah i agree with you, but here is how my aspect of religion is going to do good for people in the future. Suddenly your like a) "damn this guys not crazy" and b)"damn i gotta think harder to argue this one

Your post did raise for me some interesting thoughts

"(I don't consider Christian belief a religion, since it really doesn't need a particular framework - which, as is my understanding, a religion does), and second of all, my thinking and my understanding of God and of the Bible are so different from theirs as to be completely unrelated"

We both mention muddy waters and this being a problem but doesnt that problem result from the boundaries of Christianity being so messy?

We are never given anything concrete to actually argue. For example i wouldnt mind knowing your views on the existance and truth of the bible and how it fits into your particular beliefs, and not just you but all christians.

Someone in this position might argue that the bible is a definitive factual book written by saints who hear the voice of god and this is a guide to how life should be lived

or someone could argue that it is a book that carries various messages and some make sense to me

[cnvrt02]

flea, a lot of christians are bigots

Alot of white people hate blacks.

See what i did?

[cobra]

Alot of white people hate blacks.

See what i did?

no?

being white doesn't teach racism, christian bigots have been taught to be bigots, do you see the difference? if not its best you leave this to the adults

[robbyx]

I hate to go of on another tangent, but ....

Animals.....take a lion, a proud, majestic animal.....that must survive by tearing another living animal to pieces...it has no choice.

Man had/has nothing to do with this, it is all "God's" handy work.
Now, creating an animal like that seems rather...strange, considering that cows, sheep , horses, pandas and even gorillas get along just fine without having to commit such horrendous acts of violence and cruelty towards other living creatures which "God" also created.

What could possibly be the reason for this ?
This fact above all others absolutely convinces me that there is no God....or if there is, he/she/it is definately not someone/something we should hold in high regard let alone be worshipping.

[Baltimore]

I hate to go of on another tangent, but ....

Animals.....take a lion, a proud, majestic animal.....that must survive by tearing another living animal to pieces...it has no choice.

Man had/has nothing to do with this, it is all "God's" handy work.
Now, creating an animal like that seems rather...strange, considering that cows, sheep , horses, pandas and even gorillas get along just fine without having to commit such horrendous acts of violence and cruelty towards other living creatures which "God" also created.

What could possibly be the reason for this ?
This fact above all others absolutely convinces me that there is no God....or if there is, he/she/it is definately not someone/something we should hold in high regard let alone be worshipping.

The Lion a proud and majestic animal? Only because over the course of history humans, particularly humans from western and eastern cultures, have been programmed to think of them as such. I'm sure the local families in Africa don't think of them as majestic. Lions, and all carnivores for that matter, are a vital part of the ecosystem. Lions cull the herds of the weak and infirm because it is in their nature, but it also helps the herds. It also prevents the planet being overrun with zebras and such. Your argument that Lions kill herbivores therefore God is either non-existent or something you would not hold in high regard is somewhat simplistic. Most creatures on the planet are vital, be they regarded as majestic, cruel or wonderful. I'm sure there is even a reason for fleas (no offence intended there Flea :laff:). That is the nature of nature.

I'm not saying God does or does not exist. I'm not saying that if he/she/it does, we should all worship him/her/it. Just that if God does exist, he/she/it really thought things through before creating stuff because everything is very subtly balanced (for some reason, the childrens book "The King, the Mice and the Cheese" springs to mind). Also, don't assume that if he/she/it does exist that it is we humans who are the focus of his/her/its' attention. For all we know, we are a precursor to the next dominant species on the planet in the same way that Neanderthals were here before us.

The trouble with this thread is that it has been full of fundamentalists on both sides. It is easy to point out something like the KKK, or Islamic fundamentalists, or Catholic priests who molest little boys and say "see, they are evil so all religion is evil". Just as it is easy to say "scientists have created the atom bomb and performed horrible experiments on people therefore all science is evil". Let's try and accept the fact that in the course of human history, there have been some very, very bad people and there have been some very, very good people. People in both those camps have used religion or science as an excuse to justify their own desires (no matter how noble or base those desires are). That is the nature of humans.