Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[ThaFleastyler]

what does your church say about homosexuals? what is your churches view of what happens to them when they die? - i dont think you can claim tolerance if you believe these people are going to burn in the fiery pits of hell, and that they deserve to - and this subtle hateful view opens the doors to more extreme hateful views

the people you call "christians" are christians, i can see where you are coming from that they are not promoting love, and that's a shame, they are the people who cause christians to be labelled as hypocrites

Grims post was very good, christian groups do good work in the community, but the conservative hateful views that under ride it lead me to consider them hate groups

Where is the "reason and examples" you mention later?
Where is your proof that Christianity is a hate group?
I would love to see how you turn your opinion into a fact.

Of course, like you, I have an unfair bias - namely, I think your opinion is full of shit, and given your posts in this thread, and in the rest of the community (Music threads anyone?), I don't give anything you say a whole heap of respect. So keep that in mind maybe?

- i am willing to back my views up with reason and examples, please if you disagree with be could you do the same and we can have an adult conversation - Name calling and general abuse doesn't do you any favours in the looking tolerant basket

Here is a question:
Why should I be tolerant of such reckless ignorance on your part?

This has nothing to do with me being intolerant (yet another unfair, incorrect generalisation) - this has everything to do with me simply being fed up dealing with unfair generalisations, incorrect assumptions and insults, and unprovoked attacks.

You are asking me to provide "reason and examples" so we can have an "adult conversation"? You haven't provided any of these things yourself! All you've done is make unfair, totally incorrect generalisations of a group of people that I'm convinced you literally know nothing about, with absolutely no basis whatsoever. Perhaps if you did more than make wild statements merely to provoke a reaction, and make subtle ad hominem attacks, I might take you more seriously.

In fact, why am I even discussing Christianity with someone who obviously doesn't know ANYTHING about it? The extent of your knowledge appears to be "I saw Brian Tamaki on TV once and mormons woke me up one Saturday, so Christians are dicks." Or am I wrong? Being that I attend a church weekly and try to follow what is going on in the Christian church nationally and globally, what exactly do you think qualifies you to presume you know more about the Christian church than I do?

I can't wait to read what you have to say ...

[cobra]

Where is the "reason and examples" you mention later?
Where is your proof that Christianity is a hate group?
I would love to see how you turn your opinion into a fact.

Of course, like you, I have an unfair bias - namely, I think your opinion is full of shit, and given your posts in this thread, and in the rest of the community (Music threads anyone?), I don't give anything you say a whole heap of respect. So keep that in mind maybe?


Here is a question:
Why should I be tolerant of such reckless ignorance on your part?

This has nothing to do with me being intolerant (yet another unfair, incorrect generalisation) - this has everything to do with me simply being fed up dealing with unfair generalisations, incorrect assumptions and insults, and unprovoked attacks.

You are asking me to provide "reason and examples" so we can have an "adult conversation"? You haven't provided any of these things yourself! All you've done is make unfair, totally incorrect generalisations of a group of people that I'm convinced you literally know nothing about, with absolutely no basis whatsoever. Perhaps if you did more than make wild statements merely to provoke a reaction, and make subtle ad hominem attacks, I might take you more seriously.

In fact, why am I even discussing Christianity with someone who obviously doesn't know ANYTHING about it? The extent of your knowledge appears to be "I saw Brian Tamaki on TV once and mormons woke me up one Saturday, so Christians are dicks." Or am I wrong? Being that I attend a church weekly and try to follow what is going on in the Christian church nationally and globally, what exactly do you think qualifies you to presume you know more about the Christian church than I do?

I can't wait to read what you have to say ...

what an angry young man - yes i disagree with you, accept and move on champ

we have different views of the church - you internal, me external - but the external view is the one that counts (if you are a follower of Sartre) the Klan and skinheads don't see themselves as bad people.....

for the hatred examples

you never answered this

what does your church say about homosexuals? what is your churches view of what happens to them when they die? - i dont think you can claim tolerance if you believe these people are going to burn in the fiery pits of hell, and that they deserve to - and this subtle hateful view opens the doors to more extreme hateful views

from grims post (very good post by the way grim)

Originally Posted by External source
Opposition to hiring homosexuals
The Salvation Army in the U.S. has been the topic of many controversial discussions about discrimination against homosexuals in their hiring practices.[5] According to lesbian/gay newsmagazine The Advocate, the Bush administration was "willing to do whatever it takes to perpetuate, support, and defend discrimination against gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender individuals" in exchange for The Salvation Army's lobby support for Faith-Based Initiatives, in what the publication described as a "secret arrangement."[6] The New York Times reported that the Salvation Army believed it had a firm commitment from the White House to issue a regulation that would override local antidiscrimination laws. A disclosure of The Salvation Army's request "outraged some civil rights groups and lawmakers," and resulted in an immediate reversal of a previous promise to honor the request.[7]
The Salvation Army's position is that because it is a church, Section VII of the U.S. Civil Rights Act of 1964 explicitly guarantees its right to discriminate on the basis of its religious beliefs in its hiring. To reinforce its position, it threatened to close all soup kitchens in New York City when the city government proposed legislation that would require all organizations doing business with it to provide equal benefits to unmarried domestic partners.[8]

there is krashers earier hatespeech

http://www.fstdt.com/ - posts from christian forums

"family values"

but ragey ol' Flea, if you disagree use your words and arguments - if you had used your hatred from the quoted post and used it for thinking and reasoning we might be getting somewhere

[Ngati_Grim]

...

Read again previous posts...i was advocating the positive by argueing the negative.....at least i think thats what i was doing.

Yep, I think you guys are trying to say the same thing?

...

...

Yep, we can either keep going this way, or we can change the timbre of our posts (as I have tried to do after letting myself down by getting personal).
There is no room for ad hominem attacks here, we should be all mature enough to be able to discuss and debate, and even though this is a highly-charged and sometimes emotional topic, let's see what we can do eh?

Please, no "He started it" ..."No, she started it" stuff....let's wipe the slate clean with regards to that and try to be more civil?

[ThaFleastyler]

but ragey ol' Flea, if you disagree use your words and arguments - if you had used your hatred from the quoted post and used it for thinking and reasoning we might be getting somewhere

Firstly, what hatred? I don't hate you. I don't even really think about you to be honest. If I sound frustrated, its exactly because of that - frustration.

Look, us arguing in the middle of this discussion doesn't help anyone, so how about instead of just wildly saying "Christians hate people" like some antiChristian tourettes victim, how about you start asking some specific questions and I'll try and answer them. First cab off the rank:

what does your church say about homosexuals? what is your churches view of what happens to them when they die?

My church - as with every Christian church - believes in the idea of salvation; that to secure entry to heaven you must accept that God exists, accept that Jesus exists and believe that He died for the good of humanity. If homosexuals go to hell when they die, it won't be for being homosexual - it will be primarily because they didn't accept this stuff.

Since homosexuality is deemed a sin in the bible, and since most churches adhere to this idea, why would/should churches such as the Salvation Army allow people who are willingly, knowingly committing sin to represent them? The Presbyterian Church of NZ also went through this last year, deciding against letting homosexuals lead/pastor their churches. Its not because they are homosexual; its because they are sinning, and since leading/representing a church requires a good spiritual state - a state that is believed to be diminished by sin - why would sinners of any kind be allowed to lead churches?

Noticeably, they also don't let people who commit adultery, steal, murder or rape lead their churches. In other news, Telecom doesn't let people who embezzle company funds manage their head office, and the NZ Justice System doesn't let judges who commit fraud be judges.

Since your question was aimed directly at my church, I'll tell you this story: the most upset I've ever seen my pastor was the day that he told us about a meeting he had with a homosexual guy who was attending my church, before I got there - the homosexual guy had confided that he felt alone, since most people wouldn't befriend him, and since he was the only homosexual at the church at that time (the church was only about 80-100 people at the time), and that he was having trouble trying to focus on God when he could only focus on the perceived ill-feeling toward him. He ended up leaving the church - which was why my pastor was so upset; it upset him to tears that a minority group member felt he had to leave because of judgement within the church, a practice which he has spent a large amount of time and energy preaching AGAINST.

i dont think you can claim tolerance if you believe these people are going to burn in the fiery pits of hell, and that they deserve to - and this subtle hateful view opens the doors to more extreme hateful views

The truth - where heaven and hell is concerned - is that we may never know. As I've said time and again, Christians don't hate people, they hate sin (heck, they even have a worn-out cliche for it: "Judge the sin, not the sinner."); add to that the fact that salvation is what gets you to heaven, and there you go.

As for ending up in hell ... I mean, if you believe in God, why wouldn't you be following him? If you don't believe in the God, or believe in a different God, then what do you care?

Doesn't sound much like "intolerance of homosexuals" or a "hate group" to me ...

[Ngati_Grim]

Since homosexuality is deemed a sin in the bible, and since most churches adhere to this idea, why would/should churches such as the Salvation Army allow people who are willingly, knowingly committing sin to represent them? The Presbyterian Church of NZ also went through this last year, deciding against letting homosexuals lead/pastor their churches. Its not because they are homosexual; its because they are sinning, and since leading/representing a church requires a good spiritual state - a state that is believed to be diminished by sin - why would sinners of any kind be allowed to lead churches?

To be specific, the Presbyterian General Assembly decided that, but not without quite a few complaints. There are still homosexuals in clergy positions within the Presbyterian Church, and there has even been talk of a breakaway. The General Assembly appears to be riding the wave of intolerance* and new-found zeal that religion is experiencing post 911.

For the second part: what of the idea that we are born into sin? If that is so, then we ALL are sinners and then who would lead if the rules were rigidly applied rather than by discretion?

* this is a generalisation, but I feel it holds for the majority.

[ThaFleastyler]

To be specific, the Presbyterian General Assembly decided that, but not without quite a few complaints. There are still homosexuals in clergy positions within the Presbyterian Church, and there has even been talk of a breakaway. The General Assembly appears to be riding the wave of intolerance* and new-found zeal that religion is experiencing post 911.

I guess it depends on the church organisation itself, when coming up with their ideas on this. I can't speak for the Presbyterian Church. As far as my church goes, I can't imagine a homosexual being a pastor, but one could certainly "rise through the ranks" as it were.

Its also interesting to remember that - as is my understanding - being homosexual is not a sin, but practicing homosexuality is.

For the second part: what of the idea that we are born into sin? If that is so, then we ALL are sinners and then who would lead if the rules were rigidly applied rather than by discretion?

Well, theoretically, salvation wipes the slate clean; also, God is believed to be loving and graceful, and will forgive sin (the important part being, of course, that one is genuinely remorseful for ones actions).

I certainly believe we are all sinners, and all fall short of God. I've sinned in this thread by lashing out; it could be argued by fundamentalists that I'm sinning simply by partaking in this thread ("pearls to swine" and all that).

[Ngati_Grim]

Its also interesting to remember that - as is my understanding - being homosexual is not a sin, but practicing homosexuality is.

I want to address this more in depth at some stage. I can't find the right words now, but it seems to me to be a bit of a cop out, it's like saying  "it's ok to be a soldier, just don't kill anyone"

God is believed to be loving and graceful

Is this the same god who in the Old Testament said something along the lines of: "I am a jealous god"?

Cheers for your replies Flea.

[dirtyape]

On the first count (believing that Jesus is God) and the Holy Trinity thing, you are right, but when it comes to all that other stuff, I've heard discussion on these topics that covers a wide range of opinions and perspectives.

What? So, which ones do you dispute? Because I would think these are all part of the Christian mythos.

Jesus was the son of God?
Jesus died and was Resurrected?
Jesus was born unto the Virgin Mary (The Nativity) ?
The holy trinity is One (Jesus, God, The holy spirit are one) ?
Satan exists?
Heaven exists?
Hell exists?
Angels exist?
Devils exist?

I find this very interesting as these things are all talked about in the bible. These are the pretty much core concepts of the religion.

edit:
I should probably add:

Man is naturally sinful
Jesus died for Man's sin


And on another note, if Jesus was god, then why is it such a big deal if he died anyway? He's immortal, all powerful, etc. Now if a Human died on the cross for our sins - now THAT would carry much more weight.

Proof - God cheated, he self res'd. Now thats fkn hax. A human can't do that shit, so the sacrifice is worth much much more.

[ThaFleastyler]

I want to address this more in depth at some stage. I can't find the right words now, but it seems to me to be a bit of a cop out, it's like saying  "it's ok to be a soldier, just don't kill anyone"

Or like saying "I want to have sex before marriage, but I don't"? Or "I'm attracted to my secretary, but I'm married so I don't act on it"?

Is this the same god who in the Old Testament said something along the lines of: "I am a jealous god"?

That would be affirmative. Note that there are differences between the OT and the NT - one such difference is that Jesus now stands between us and God, and God interacts via the Holy Spirit. The "jealous God" from the OT isn't operating in the same way, which is why people are no longer "smited"

Cheers for your replies Flea.

No worries It should be remembered that I have made absolutely no attempt to research this stuff; my replies are purely my opinions and my understanding of things. I'm not a theologian. I'm not an expert. I'm just sharing my thoughts.

What? So, which ones do you dispute? Because I would think these are all part of the Christian mythos.

...

I find this very interesting as these things are all talked about in the bible. These are the pretty much core concepts of the religion.

But there are Christians who would dispute some of that stuff. In my experience (that is, what I've read around the place and heard from other Christians):

- "Jesus was the son of God?"
.... All Christians believe this.
- "Jesus died and was Resurrected?"
.... All Christians believe this.
- "Jesus was born unto the Virgin Mary (The Nativity) ?"
.... I've heard it argued that Mary was in fact a Virgin only in the regard that she had not had sex with her husband, and also heard it argued that the word Virgin is understood differently now than it was when the gospel was written.
- "The holy trinity is One (Jesus, God, The holy spirit are one) ?"
.... All Christians should believe this, however I've talked to one guy who believed they were three seperate entities acting like a hive mind, and another guy who believed God was in the OT then became Jesus in the gospel then became the Holy Spirit in the NT.
- "Satan exists?"
.... I've heard it argued that he existed in the sense of "he was an angel who fell from heaven" but isn't actually the head of a realm known as hell, since no realm exists.
- "Heaven exists?"
.... Its argued by some Christian-based churches, if I remember correctly, that earth is heaven, thus no further heaven exists.
- "Hell exists?"
.... I've heard it argued that hell doesn't exist in the sense of a physical/spiritual realm, but that hell could merely mean 'living eternity without being close to God'.
- "Angels exist?"
.... I've heard it argued that they don't anymore; not since the OT anyways.
- "Devils exist?"
.... I've heard it argued that they don't, for the same reason Angels don't.

*Note: My source for all of this is interaction on Christian message boards and discussions with other Christians, and memories of things I've heard or read. If you want I can try find out more, but I don't have it on hand.

[ThaFleastyler]

...

And on another note, if Jesus was god, then why is it such a big deal if he died anyway? He's immortal, all powerful, etc. Now if a Human died on the cross for our sins - now THAT would carry much more weight.

Proof - God cheated, he self res'd. Now thats fkn hax. A human can't do that shit, so the sacrifice is worth much much more.

An interesting idea; I've never thought about it like that.
I think part of the "big deal" is that God allowed himself to die at the hands of men; an act that continues to this day.

Your other beliefs:

- "Man is naturally sinful"
.... but then, who doesnt believe this?
- "Jesus died for Man's sin"
.... This is the basis for the Salvation story; that Jesus gave himself as a sacrifice for all of us.

[SteddieEddie]

Flea, I too really appreciate your posts and the way you compose yourself in what is a very emotional subject. Some things have been said to you that are  quite rude and inappropriate.

However I do disagree with an above post about being married and not bonking the secretary. You should of course not cheat on your wife, this is morally wrong and as you are getting sex sometimes you are being a greedy bastard,but denying your sexual nature for the rest of your life because of scripture has proven to be a ticking time bomb. The church has found this out the hard way and is I believe the biggest stain on religion in RECENT history.

[KiLL3r]

ive always found the jesus dying for our sins rather odd. because as ape said he didnt really die. Did he change his mind halfway through? If he truly died for our sins why didnt he stay dead?

And if as some religions say jesus is god then what was the whole point of it? Purely symbolic and of no use to anyone?

[ThaFleastyler]

Flea, I too really appreciate your posts and the way you compose yourself in what is a very emotional subject. Some things have been said to you that are  quite rude and inappropriate.

Thanks man, I do my best. Sometimes I flip out because I do feel like Christianity gets a bit of a raw deal in this discussion.

However I do disagree with an above post about being married and not bonking the secretary. You should of course not cheat on your wife, this is morally wrong and as you are getting sex sometimes you are being a greedy bastard,but denying your sexual nature for the rest of your life because of scripture has proven to be a ticking time bomb. The church has found this out the hard way and is I believe the biggest stain on religion in RECENT history.

I agree - suppression of sexuality or suppression of intimacy is never a good, under any circumstances (just check out the number of songs inspired by an unrequited love ). I simply don't know the answer to this one; all I do know is that - whether they feel welcome or not - homosexual people are more than welcome at my church, and at many other churches I'm familiar with. There is no hatred towards homosexuals, there is no intolerance of homosexuals. That there is, is merely a myth compounded by poor media reporting and bad public relations (for example, the Destiny march last year).

ive always found the jesus dying for our sins rather odd. because as ape said he didnt really die. Did he change his mind halfway through? If he truly died for our sins why didnt he stay dead?

And if as some religions say jesus is god then what was the whole point of it? Purely symbolic and of no use to anyone?

My understanding of the dying thing was that, at that time, forgiveness was sought from God by sacrificing something, like an animal; God came down as Jesus and sacrificed himself for our sins, thereby wiping the slate clean, then rose from the dead as a kind of conquering of death.

While the method of crucifixion, and the idea of sacrificing to seek forgiveness, is kinda irrelevant in this day and age (I would argue that if the gospel were set now, then being shot to death or put on the electric chair would do the job just as well as a cross), the message of God laying his own life down for us is still just as powerful.

Also, in terms of almost tangible love, laying ones life down for another is a pretty powerful way of saying "I love you and would do anything for you".

"No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends."

[robbyx]

WTF ? since when have Jesus and God been the same "person"...jesus was Gods son, born to a mortal woman to spread gods word on Earth.....and my understanding is that the actual act of dying was unimportant, it was the suffering he recieved at the hands of man that was the important part of the story.

[Arnifix]

WTF ? since when have Jesus and God been the same "person"...jesus was Gods son, born to a mortal woman to spread gods word on Earth.....and my understanding is that the actual act of dying was unimportant, it was the suffering he recieved at the hands of man that was the important part of the story.

It's an integral "bit". Three into the one. It's a very old story-telling technique that dates back at least as far as Ancient Greece.

[robbyx]

Ok maybe not unimportant, rather, "less" important than the actual suffering.

[Arnifix]

Ok maybe not unimportant, rather, "less" important than the actual suffering.

Ahhh, I should have been clearer. I wasn't talking about the crucifixion, just the whole Father, Son, Holy Liqueur thing.

[Danica]

Remember... all the theory of christianity, sin, god, the holy spirit, jesus, everything, comes from the Bible.

The bible is a book,one that is said to be Gods word and given by him to man to record and pass along. One that has been interpreted many times over 2000 years, translated into many languages, with some words needing to be replaced as a language maynot HAVE a word that fits, change a sentences original meaning etc... Its not a reliable and historically accurate reference to pretty much anything.

Hence the term faith, if you have faith, you wont question.

Its like the line in Braveheart... "William Wallace, 7ft tall and shoots lightning bolts from his arse". He was a real man, but his legend was bigger than he by far. The bible is without a doubt, the same. Its a collection of legends and tales passed on from one generation the the next and each time a small part here and there changes, until the original story and its meaning are unrecognisable and loss in the myth and folklore.

[cobra]

I agree - suppression of sexuality or suppression of intimacy is never a good, under any circumstances (just check out the number of songs inspired by an unrequited love ). I simply don't know the answer to this one; all I do know is that - whether they feel welcome or not - homosexual people are more than welcome at my church, and at many other churches I'm familiar with. There is no hatred towards homosexuals, there is no intolerance of homosexuals. That there is, is merely a myth compounded by poor media reporting and bad public relations (for example, the Destiny march last year).

just so i understand, there would be no issues with a practising homosexual attending your church (except for the story about the man leaving as he didn't feel welcome) and that a practising homosexual would have no issues getting into heaven if he believed in jesus and he/she wouldn't need to repress his/her sexuality or feel what he/she was doing was wrong?

and this would be the same across the majority of churches?

if so, i apologise because the information i had wasn't an accurate reflection of the true story

Noticeably, they also don't let people who commit adultery, steal, murder or rape lead their churches.

I think you would find that most homosexuals would find it hateful being compared with adulteress, thieves, murderers and rapists - you need to be careful as it is post like this one that can lead people to feel the church is intolerant

[brucewillis2]

- "Angels exist?"
.... I've heard it argued that they don't anymore; not since the OT anyways.
- "Devils exist?"
.... I've heard it argued that they don't, for the same reason Angels don't.

yeah yeah yeah... but what do YOU believe? Do devils and angels exist. Do YOU think there is an all powerful devil like the one that tested jesus out in the desert. Or is it that 666 mark of the beast character that appears later in the story?

I find this interesting, because you're so willing to try and answer everyone's questions, keep it up.

[frog.]

WTF ? since when have Jesus and God been the same "person

In Hinduism it is Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva that make up their trinity (trimurti). Sumerians had Anu, Enlil and Anki and in Egypt it was Amun, Re and Ptah. The Babylonians employed the equilateral triangle as their symbol for their god (three into one) just as the Roman Catholic church does today. In Christianity it is the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost (spirit). Like Anifix said, it is an old and very popular story.

[Ngati_Grim]

I find this interesting, because you're so willing to try and answer everyone's questions, keep it up.

]


Ditto, I really appreciate it. I just wish others would chime in as well so we can gain more perspective.


(I like the way everyone seems to be being 'nicer' now....good work!)

[ThaFleastyler]

just so i understand, there would be no issues with a practising homosexual attending your church (except for the story about the man leaving as he didn't feel welcome) and that a practising homosexual would have no issues getting into heaven if he believed in jesus and he/she wouldn't need to repress his/her sexuality or feel what he/she was doing was wrong?

and this would be the same across the majority of churches?

if so, i apologise because the information i had wasn't an accurate reflection of the true story

Look, practicing homosexuality is a sin according to the bible. As far as I understand, Christian teaching holds that if someone sins they would need to be remorseful and ask forgiveness for that sin. A non-practicing homosexual who believed in Jesus would be the same as anyone else, as far as getting into heaven goes. Its the actual act of a man hooking up with another man which is the sin.

Out of curiosity, why are you hung up on the churches' attitude towards homosexuals?

I think you would find that most homosexuals would find it hateful being compared with adulteress, thieves, murderers and rapists - you need to be careful as it is post like this one that can lead people to feel the church is intolerant

My apologies if I offended anyone - I was merely comparing it to other sins, not saying that homosexuality is as bad as any of these things.

[ThaFleastyler]

yeah yeah yeah... but what do YOU believe? Do devils and angels exist. Do YOU think there is an all powerful devil like the one that tested jesus out in the desert. Or is it that 666 mark of the beast character that appears later in the story?

Ok, lets take them one at a time ...

- "Jesus was the son of God?"
.... I believe Jesus was God himself.
- "Jesus died and was Resurrected?"
.... I believe this, since conquering death is an important part of it all.
- "Jesus was born unto the Virgin Mary (The Nativity) ?"
.... I believe a miraculous conception is possible, but I also believe there could be something more logical or explainable at work (like, modern translation not meaning the same or something like that).
- "The holy trinity is One (Jesus, God, The holy spirit are one) ?"
.... I believe they are all the same entity, yes. The "OT=God, Gospel=Jesus, NT/now=Holy Spirit" argument I've read is pretty convincing too, and when I pray, I pray to all three - since they are the same person, surely the message gets through, right?
- "Satan exists?"
.... Logically speaking, every force has an equal and opposite force, so I believe there is something. My skeptical side finds it hard to believe it would be a giant red guy with goat feet and horns.
- "Heaven exists?"
.... Yes, but I don't believe any of us can know what its like, like, I imagine it to be something beyond imagining.
- "Hell exists?"
.... In a sense, but I believe the idea that hell is just being away from God for eternity has some merit.
- "Angels exist?"
- "Devils exist?"
.... These are kinda the same thing. I don't really know what to believe where angels and devils/demons are concerned. I don't know that the bible is terribly clear on them - angels, for example, are just messengers from God - couldn't God have given a human a message to pass on? - or are mentioned as being in heaven, a place no man has ever seen - so couldn't they be human spirits? In terms of modern day experience with angels/demons, most people describe them more as an attitude or spirit; the only guy I've heard say he actually saw an angel has since been dismissed as a heretic. So yeah, its a toughy. Do I believe in guardian angels? No, since I believe God has got our back. Do I believe in demonic possession? Possibly, but again I believe its just a spirit, not a physical thing.
- "Man is naturally sinful"
.... I believe this. But as I said, who doesn't believe man is naturally sinful.
- "Jesus died for Man's sin"
.... I believe this.

The important thing is this, it doesn't really matter what I believe since I'm just trying to figure this all out. All I do know is that I had an experience with God at a Christian church, and have had multiple experiences there since, which leave me with no option than to conclude that God does exist, and if He exists in the Christian sense then Jesus exists and the Bible has merit, and if Jesus exists and the Bible has merit then the idea of salvation is also correct. The rest is just details; its like the evolution argument - from a Christian perspective, who really cares? Christianity is not based around Creationism as a core belief - whether God made the world in 6 days or used a Big Bang or used a Playdough Earth Building set doesn't really matter, its just an interesting discussion.

I find this interesting, because you're so willing to try and answer everyone's questions, keep it up.

I do my best. As far as my faith goes, I'm transparent - I've got nothing to hide. And besides, engaging in discussion like this helps me figure out what I believe as well

[ThaFleastyler]

In Hinduism it is Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva that make up their trinity (trimurti). Sumerians had Anu, Enlil and Anki and in Egypt it was Amun, Re and Ptah. The Babylonians employed the equilateral triangle as their symbol for their god (three into one) just as the Roman Catholic church does today. In Christianity it is the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost (spirit). Like Anifix said, it is an old and very popular story.

What if it isn't a story? Or more interestingly, how did it just happen that the same idea of the gods (being trinitarian in nature) popped up in all those different religions all over the world?