Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Dr Woomanchu]

:popcorn:

I'm loving that a thread dealing primarily with religion is being kept alive by a bunch of guys who don't believe in the effectiveness of religious institutions, arguing about who is more correct about the science that supposedly wipes religion out

Please, continue ...

Oh I believe in the effectiveness of religious institutions. Their effectiveness or otherwise is completely unrelated to the existence of god(s)

[Dr Woomanchu]

I would argue that intelligent design could also simply be scientific rationality

A big issue here is also one that applies to the term god. The term intelligent design can have very different meanings in different contexts.

I have no problems with metaphysical speculation about intelligent design, that posits that a sentient entity consciously, or even accidentally, created the universe we live in. We know nothing about what happened prior to the event that started this universe, or even if there was a before as we understand it, so an intelligent design proposition is as good as many others.

I have enormous problems with the story of Intelligent Design, in which a specific god, namely the Christian God, made the earth and the animals and people on it within a specific time frame, and now sits watching and occasionally intervening in what we, humans ( who by the way are special in this universe which was made for us by implication) do. In this story, the obscenely large mountains of data that make evolution as much a fact as gravity is, are misinterpreted side effects of how God chose to make what, in this story anyway, appears to be his personal lego set.

The first is a reasonable speculation, and if a world view that includes some higher sentience works for you, then it's as good an article of faith as any. The second is, quite frankly, a load of dribble.

[cobra]

this is for those of you who talk about chance:

the probability of a specific bridge hand is 1 in 635,013,559,600

a round of bridge is 26 hands (give or take a few) so the chances of playing a specific round is 1.84 * 10^283, which is get pretty damn close to zero

to put that in perspective you have a lot more chance of randomly picking the correct electron out of the universe than predicting a round of bridge - if you predict the round before hand = miracle, predicting it after you know the hands not a miracle

if you predicted that there would be life in this universe before it came to be  that would be remarkable

predicting that the universe is suitable for life, given that there is life - the odds are 100%, but not a sign of god

[Arnifix]

[video]WlJdFf3hV7I[/video]

[KiLL3r]

"hope you get hit by a church van"

rofl +1

[Ngati_Grim]

I imagine most scientists wouldn't get away with publishing statements about design and intelligence in peer-reviewed scientific journals - the atheist scientists might kick up a fuss and start accusing them of being Intelligent Design advocates which is probably why they tend to make such statements publically or in their own personal literature. Keeping their work and beliefs seperate 'n all that.

One would hope that the agnostic and religious scientists would 'kick up a fuss' as well,  as it's not good science...it's speculation.

[Ngati_Grim]

Where did you get the idea that other universes even exist? There are no other universes as far as mainstream science is currently concerned.

Replace the word 'universes' with 'god' (remove the other, though it's as possible there are many as there are one) and you're getting somewhere!

Isaac Newton

Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done.

Isaac Newton was 'trapped' within a religious paradigm. It would be interesting to see what he would say today, with more scientific freedom than there was in his day.

*eats porridge*

I thought that was a rumour, but straight from the horse's mouth! :asian:

Oh I believe in the effectiveness of religious institutions. Their effectiveness or otherwise is completely unrelated to the existence of god(s)

QFT

I imagine most scientists wouldn't get away with publishing statements about design and intelligence in peer-reviewed scientific journals - the atheist scientists might kick up a fuss and start accusing them of being Intelligent Design advocates which is probably why they tend to make such statements publically or in their own personal literature. Keeping their work and beliefs seperate 'n all that.

One would hope that the agnostic and religious scientists would 'kick up a fuss' as well,  as it's not good science...it's speculation.

[ThaFleastyler]

You put words in my mouth. I never said you did have a mental illness, I asked if you had considered it.  A perfectly reasonable thing to consider given the data you provided. Lets not get emotional. I honestly didn't mean to offend. We are mature enough to discuss these matters objectively?

Yes we can, and I know you didn't say that I did have one - but I was just clarifying for the record that I don't have a mental illness. End of story.

There is no history of mental illness in my family. There is no record of mental illness in my own medical history. I spoke to my doctor about it, and it was inconclusive. I spoke to a friend of mine who works at the local hospital in a mental health capacity about it, and it was inconclusive. The only person who could give me any answer that fitted what happened was a preacher.

Furthermore, the phenomena happened to me while I was driving around, far away from a church or from the direct influence of a third party, and while I was in a state of mind that was directly against churches, God and religion. This same phenomena has happened to others I have spoken to at my church and at several other churches.

Also, if you don't think I have a mental illness, how do you explain the audible voice I heard?

So churches are full people who hear voices? And that validates what exactly? That there may be lots of people with mental illnesses in churches?

I have seen studies into people that experience "miracles" such as talking to god or angels. I have seen the state induced. The brain is an amazing thing, and the funny thing about having hallucinations is that you think that they are real. Very real. That's kind of their modus operandi, in actual fact.

So you don't find the fact that so many different people (as in, combining all faiths and religions, multiple-billions of people) from so many different backgrounds, who believe so many different things, and practice their faith and beliefs in so many different ways ... the fact that all these people confirm each others stories, either by having similar experiences or knowing others that do - that doesn't compel you to think that there might be more?

I think its entirely possible that "spiritual" or "God" experiences can be induced, I'm not disagreeing with you there. But to say that its all fake on the scale that you would imply - thats lunacy, imo.

You know, just because it can be faked doesn't mean it can't actually also happen legitimately. One does not infer the other.

[woofnstuff]

we are a figment of God's imagination nothing really exists.. we are only a dream

[Ngati_Grim]

Also, if you don't think I have a mental illness, how do you explain the audible voice I heard?

maybe this?

Perhaps the 'pastor' has one of these and gets people in by manipulation? :asian:



it's o.k. You're 'normal'

[SteddieEddie]

Furthermore, the phenomena happened to me while I was driving around, far away from a church or from the direct influence of a third party, and while I was in a state of mind that was directly against churches, God and religion. This same phenomena has happened to others I have spoken to at my church and at several other churches.

I am not trying to be rude, but if I remember rightly( not a given ) but weren't you in a really bad place before you found God. Drinking, partying etc. In my experience it a lot of people "find God" when their life has hit a speed bump.

In fact, this "fine-tuning" is so pronounced, and the "coincidences" are so numerous, many scientists have come to espouse The Anthropic Principle, which contends that the universe was brought into existence intentionally for the sake of producing mankind.

WOW these scientists egos are as big as the universe it's self. Bloody good of the big man to make all this just for little old us.

I am really enjoying this thread again, thanks to all who are contributing to it. Even though I am dazzled at times by your superior knowledge:sunnies: Lets keep it civil

[dirtyape]

So you don't find the fact that so many different people (as in, combining all faiths and religions, multiple-billions of people) from so many different backgrounds, who believe so many different things, and practice their faith and beliefs in so many different ways ... the fact that all these people confirm each others stories, either by having similar experiences or knowing others that do - that doesn't compel you to think that there might be more?

I think its entirely possible that "spiritual" or "God" experiences can be induced, I'm not disagreeing with you there. But to say that its all fake on the scale that you would imply - thats lunacy, imo.

You know, just because it can be faked doesn't mean it can't actually also happen legitimately. One does not infer the other.

An argument of the masses proves absolutely nothing without evidence, and in this situation there is alternative theory.

Lots of people believe they have seen ghosts, been abducted by aliens, and lived past lives. Are they correct?

I'm not saying you didn't hear god, I'm saying there are other more mundane explanations.

[Ngati_Grim]

In my experience it a lot of people "find God" when their life has hit a speed bump.

I'm not saying you didn't hear god, I'm saying there are other more mundane explanations.

Read those links in my post ^^ (well, the second one is better)

I am really enjoying this thread again, thanks to all who are contributing to it. Even though I am dazzled at times by your superior knowledge:sunnies: Lets keep it civil

Me too...it helps pass the drudgery of work!
I flounder with some of the concepts, but it doesn't stop me coming back, especially now we are being so nice to each other!

An argument of the masses proves absolutely nothing without evidence, and in this situation there is alternative theory.

I concur.
Dorry my brain id full of fug and my node id blocked do I'm finding it more difficult than udual to put my thoughtd to 'paper'.

[nick247]

A big issue here is also one that applies to the term god. The term intelligent design can have very different meanings in different contexts.

I have no problems with metaphysical speculation about intelligent design, that posits that a sentient entity consciously, or even accidentally, created the universe we live in. We know nothing about what happened prior to the event that started this universe, or even if there was a before as we understand it, so an intelligent design proposition is as good as many others.

I have enormous problems with the story of Intelligent Design, in which a specific god, namely the Christian God, made the earth and the animals and people on it within a specific time frame, and now sits watching and occasionally intervening in what we, humans ( who by the way are special in this universe which was made for us by implication) do. In this story, the obscenely large mountains of data that make evolution as much a fact as gravity is, are misinterpreted side effects of how God chose to make what, in this story anyway, appears to be his personal lego set.

The first is a reasonable speculation, and if a world view that includes some higher sentience works for you, then it's as good an article of faith as any. The second is, quite frankly, a load of dribble.

exactly, even if we accept intelligent design where does that leave us? and thats what i want the Christians here to answer, how would the existance of intelligent design by itself even come close to justifying the framework of Christianity?

and in regards to hearing voices its a weaker argument to use as the mind is very subjective, its does tend to hear things that it wants at the time..................and this is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more likely a scenario than hearing the actual voice of god telling you to go into a church. Considering first you have to argue intelligent design then you have to argue that the intelligent design is a Christian god, then you have to argue that church and prayer are the accepted forms of getting closer to god AND ONLY THEN can you argue that yes it may be possible that this was a voice from said god

you cant really start at the functional aspects on the other end when the larger picture is very very very unclear and unsubstantiated

I would argue that a truely anti relgious mind as you said you had, would have strong views on the ridiculousness of the Christian Churchs framework and the incredible unlikelihood of it being true. Thus even upon hearing a voice you wouldnt immediatly jump to and believe it. Chances are at that point in your life you were looking elsewhere for inspiration and thus you were willing to believe...............funny thing this is the exact same thing you hear from every born again Christian who used to be aethiest....they are always at that stage in their life when they WANT TO BE "saved".

That scenario is 1000 times more likely and logical than the existance of a single intelligent loving Christian based Church prefering god, hell and heaven creating, garden of eden, 10 commandments, writing God......................a true aethiest would know that!!!!!!!!!

that being said im still interested in the story and do appreciate it, i just hope your not using it bolster a claim that god exists because its a bad place to start the argument

[Arnifix]

you cant really start at the functional aspects on the other end when the larger picture is very very very unclear and unsubstantiated

I'm not so sure nick. I don't disagree with your argument, but this specific bit does smell rather like science to me.

[brucewillis2]

Actually, Isaac Newton understood the laws of gravity very well, even if he didn't fully understand the precise mechanics that made them work so efficiently. He did not say "an invisible hand" must be controlling gravity, however he did say:

Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done.

You miss my point entirely, I never said anything about Issac Newton, I was talking about before newton nobody understood it. Just like there is a few things we still don't know. To say just because we don't fully understand them NOW there must be a divine force involved... that's pretty silly really, and pretty arrogant in thinking we should know everything.

Even I could take a stab at how the planets were set in motion. All it need is two objects of mass and you have them circling each other, then for the solar system planets were first balls of gas and explosions would of forced other planets to form on different trajectories. Of course all these are held in place with the sun. It wasn't god flicking the planets around like marbles.

[nick247]

i mean you cant argue that i heard a voice, therefore it is likely that god is a christian god therefore it is likely that the universe was created by intelligent design, therefore god exists

If you can substantiate the possibility of church being tied to the idea of intelligent design then to say "AND i heard a voice that said go to said church" then yeah now you have a pretty good argument and im much more interested

To start with "i got told to go to church" makes me think "shit some people get told to sacrifice animals maybe thats what god wants"

[Proe]

Just a quick thread side track

How much does the church expect from you for attending church?

Reason I ask, is that despite the current global situation of inflation, housing marketing slump, increased petrol/food costs etc etc, I've seen 3 or 4 churches I drive past everyday undergoing major renovations on their churches which no doubt costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[ThaFleastyler]

Just a quick thread side track

How much does the church expect from you for attending church?

Reason I ask, is that despite the current global situation of inflation, housing marketing slump, increased petrol/food costs etc etc, I've seen 3 or 4 churches I drive past everyday undergoing major renovations on their churches which no doubt costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.

If you want to discuss money, go back to start of thread and read it all please - the (in my opinion, totally unfounded) discussion of money has been raised and dropped several times. I'm not getting back into how or why churches have money, other than to say that demanding money from parishioners is unbiblical (though it does happen), but in the majority of churches, donation of money is entirely voluntary.

[Ngati_Grim]

Reason I ask, is that despite the current global situation of inflation, housing marketing slump, increased petrol/food costs etc etc, I've seen 3 or 4 churches I drive past everyday undergoing major renovations on their churches which no doubt costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.

It's not just churches though. Here at Canterbury Uni they are embarking on major capital works (new buildings). I know the funding is different, but it's probably the matter of looking/appearing professional, providing adequate space (unfortunately, religious fundamentalism is on the rise, and they need somewhere to gather) and who would be attracted to worship in a place that was all tumbledown?....it shouldn't make a difference, but as humans we are a bit like magpies....we go for the shiny objects!

in the majority of churches, donation of money is entirely voluntary.

Yep, I would have to agree with that. The offering 'plate' gets handed around and one can give as much or as little as they wish...then there are anonymous (to the parishioners, not to the treasurer) donations.

I don't agree with tithing, I think it is underhanded in general, but other people have different opinions.

[ThaFleastyler]

Yep, I would have to agree with that. The offering 'plate' gets handed around and one can give as much or as little as they wish...then there are anonymous (to the parishioners, not to the treasurer) donations.

I don't agree with tithing, I think it is underhanded in general, but other people have different opinions.

Like I say, forcing someone to give a certain amount of cash is unbiblical - the bible itself says "... each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not under compulsion ..."

Tithing is one of those things that Christians get and people outside don't get, I think. Its a personal choice though - I would be horrified if my church suddenly decided everyone had to either tithe or GTFO (indeed, I was horrified when I heard that Destiny Church was doing this - though that turned out to be incorrect).

There are two churches in my city, that I know of, who are doing major building projects: one is my church, and we talk about giving and tithing during church services and hand around buckets for people to put their donations into; the other is my parents church, who don't mention giving or tithing during services, and have a humble little wooden box at the back for people to put their donations in when they are ready. Both ways seem equally effective.

[brucewillis2]

the other is my parents church

ahhhh, I see maybe another reason why you got into church besides 'the voice' calling you in.

[Turkish]

ahhhh, I see maybe another reason why you got into church besides 'the voice' calling you in.

Your condescending attitude in this thread is getting to be a bit tedious to be honest...

[dirtyape]

Where did you get the idea that other universes even exist? There are no other universes as far as mainstream science is currently concerned.

Because our observable universe is all that can exist? Where does that put your god? Within his construction?

I didn't think you would reply. You would be hypocritical if you believed that a multi-verse could not exist if you were willing to believe that "God" can exist.

And the most interesting part is that I do not believe in a multiverse. And neither do physicists. We believe that there is a series of mathematical masturbations that explain how such a multiverse could work (ref: M-Theory), but this is hardly proven to be real. Potentially real, mathematics is after all the language of the universe. So it has some credit.

Now you on the other hand seem to think that this "God" thing is very real despite only having cloudy logic, quotes taken out of context, and a mountain of speculation.

Now, isn't that odd?

[cobra]

Flea

you were going so well convincing me that the church was more tolerant than i thought, but before i can by it completely i just need to be assured that the church doesn't organise intolerance campaigns - you probably just missed my question, so i will ask it again, the church doesn't have any issues with homosexuals, apart from the sin but we all sin and are sinners, as long as they ask for forgiveness the church is cool - given that it would not make sense for the church to try to stop these people having equal human rights therefore the church wouldn't be involved in campaigns against the civil union bill or be opposed to same sex couples raising children - is that correct, if not can you explain where my logic breaks down

cheers, your friend and mentor

Cobra