Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Zarkov]

Good example Tofu.

How come he had such a long career anyway?

God must like sledging tards like him just a little bit.

[WhiteRabbit]

so if i told you there were magical pixies living at the end of my garden what would you say?

Prove it?

Of course i cant because there are no magical pixies in my garden. I cant then expect you to prove that my pixies do exist thats just inferior logic. The same applies for god. Why is there a need to disprove something for which there is no proof to begin with? There just isnt a reason to.

If you want to make something up then its upto you to prove it not for everyone else to disprove.

So your conversations hould really go like this.


Man A : There is no god.
Man B : Prove it.
Man A : Its your creation you first.
Man B : Yep im fucked.

Interesting that people are willing to believe in alien life(in fact its becoming the standard view)- because logic and numbers say its okay, and the chaneses are there is life out there - with out a shred of proof.


Science is not a quest to kill god, and science and god go hand in hand.

[KiLL3r]

Interesting that people are willing to believe in alien life(in fact its becoming the standard view)- because logic and numbers say its okay, and the chaneses are there is life out there - with out a shred of proof.

yes because logic and numbers say so. Its much better than the alternative of ignorance and blind faith

science and god go hand in hand.

oh no they dont, god has no place in science at all. He is the single biggest setback to science. we could be out meeting aliens by now if it wasnt for "gods"

[ThaFleastyler]

Ok, here's the thing that gets me - Matt Hayden is a classic example. Every time he scores a hundred, he crosses himself and looks to the heavens as if the big fella has somehow had a hand in it all.

But when he snicks one and is out for a duck (or plays a lazy shot to short cover like he did yesterday) he trudges off to the sheds without as much as a quick hail mary to help him on his way. Why is his faith so shaken?

If there is a God, then surely he/she/it wants good ol' Matty to get that duck as much as a century. Therein lies the problem - if you believe in God you have to believe in the whole package, you can't just take him in the good times, you've got to accept that the "bad times" have been given too you with God's "blessing" as well.

So "Matty", when the selectors sack your sad arse on Monday, cross yourself and look to the heavens, with a simple "thank you Lord". Then i might just believe that you have some real "faith".

A very good post Tofu Tho, I must say though, a large number of churches preach this message, about not being a "fairweather Christian" - mine preaches it sometimes.

To be completely honest, this idea that maybe God is not always good is intriguing to me, and one of the real questions I have to confront in my faith on a regular basis. Its tempting to say "yeah, Gods a bastard and thats that", but for me - being as sure as I am that God exists - its akin to just throwing my hands up in the air and walking away because its too hard. I wouldn't do that with a jigsaw, let alone something that I take as seriously as my faith.

People refer to faith as a struggle, and others laugh and say "relying on an imaginary friend isn't a struggle, its a security blanket" - but the truth is, the kind of compelling, logical arguments presented here in this thread are the standard line from almost every non-Christian you meet. The struggle in faith isn't actually believing in God; the struggle is holding on to that belief in the face of the temptation to just go "fuck it" and walk away.

To get back to Matt Hayden: what does he do when he scores a 74? Or a 42? Real faith isn't necessarily visible - Hayden has probably been praying in the sheds before an innings, and probably prays afterwards. In the case of the century, I guess he just likes to give credit to the big fella instead of to himself.

[ThaFleastyler]

god has no place in science at all. He is the single biggest setback to science. we could be out meeting aliens by now if it wasnt for "gods"

So to clarify:

- Should leading scientists be free to have a faith in a "god" (as in, any "god" of their own choosing, not necessarily the Christian God)?
- Would a faith in a "god" stop scientists from achieving?
- Would the presence of a "god" really change that much about the way we view the world around us?

Also, how would we be meeting aliens if it wasn't for "gods"? I don't get that

The problem I think you're speaking about isn't actually any "gods" - the problem is that man has implemented "god" as a barrier to scientific progress, when the truth is that real progress can only be made when there are no barriers in place.

The fact remains that if you believe in "god", then you need to reconcile your own understanding from a "faith"-based perspective with the science-based reality, and I think this is what the rabbit was talking about.

[WhiteRabbit]

yes because logic and numbers say so. Its much better than the alternative of ignorance and blind faith

the odds of aliens existing is exactly 2:1 (ie 50/50) the odds of god existing is exactly 2:1 (ie 50/50) - this is based on the fundamental scientific theory called "your either right or wrong" - so the numbers are the same for both.

as for the logic - there is very simple logic to follow for there to be a creator (and its fully backed up by science) - "nothing comes from nothing, in order for there to be something it must be created by something"


the irony of all of this is that i dont believe either way.

[UppityDuck]

Science is not a quest to kill god, and science and god go hand in hand.

I know it seems like a chore, but you really should read the thread before you post repetitive questions/statements like that! :bounce:

I'm sure it's been 'confronted' before, but I'm with KilLL3r....'god' has no place in science...because, specifically, of the Scientific  Method. It doesn't exclude people with 'faith' taking part in science, they just have to check their credulity at the door when engaging in Science.

[WhiteRabbit]

I know it seems like a chore, but you really should read the thread before you post repetitive questions/statements like that! :bounce:

i dont see why - this tread wil never stop and continute to loop round in circles ;-)

[UppityDuck]

i dont see why - this tread wil never stop and continute to loop round in circles ;-)

I'm sick of retreads!

[TofuEater]

the odds of aliens existing is exactly 2:1 (ie 50/50) the odds of god existing is exactly 2:1 (ie 50/50)

Um...... 50/50 is odds of 1:1.

[WhiteRabbit]

Um...... 50/50 is odds of 1:1.

No its 2:1 - you have two options, one is right - hence 2:1

[Bell]

as for the logic - there is very simple logic to follow for there to be a creator (and its fully backed up by science) - "nothing comes from nothing, in order for there to be something it must be created by something"

God doesn't solve this delima at all.
Lets expand..

Nothing comes from nothing, in order for there to be something (X) it must be created by something (Y).
Nothing comes from nothing, in order for there to be something (Y) it must be created by something (GOD).
Nothing comes from nothing, in order for there to be something (GOD) it must be created by something (GOD2!?)

[WhiteRabbit]

God doesn't solve this delima at all.

Yeap thats right - its a funny old thing called faith.

[Bell]

Yeap thats right - its a funny old thing called faith.

Why do we need a creator when the creator doesn't need a creator?

[Zarathrustra]

Why do we need a creator when the creator doesn't need a creator?

Because if we let all the normal people of the world think they were essentially their own masters, imagine the chaos that would ensue.

Unfortunately, civilisation without hierarchy, wouldn't be all that civil.

[Bell]

Yea I think there is alot of truth in that, but on the other hand I believe I am my own master but I don't go around causing chaos so I have to believe everyone else could manage that too.

[UppityDuck]

Well, it depends whether we choose to keep propagating the lies in order to keep the order, or educate them properly in order to keep the order.

[Zarathrustra]

Yea I think there is alot of truth in that, but on the other hand I believe I am my own master but I don't go around causing chaos so I have to believe everyone else could manage that too.

Yeah, but that's the thing, most people that strive to see beyond things like religion, and to "be their own masters", are the sort of people who don't need the control.

It's sad, but I really do believe that a lot of the people in this world do still need to be living with the belief that their actions really are accountable in the eyes of a higher power, the kind of people that have no respect for other men, but do still have a good old fashioned "fear of God".

Well, it depends whether we choose to keep propagating the lies in order to keep the order, or educate them properly in order to keep the order.

 That's a fair point, but I'm not sure if "education" is really enough to surpress the darker side of human nature.  The only thing that effectively has so far (to any real degree), is religion.

[UppityDuck]

  That's a fair point, but I'm not sure if "education" is really enough to surpress the darker side of human nature.  The only thing that effectively has so far (to any real degree), is religion.

[sarcasm]yep, that's patently obvious [/sarcasm]

:asian:

[frog.]

 That's a fair point, but I'm not sure if "education" is really enough to surpress the darker side of human nature.  The only thing that effectively has so far (to any real degree), is religion.

Education used to suppress the darker side of man is education used to suppress man. More understanding of the dark side is what is needed, building brick walls for everything we do not understand will not make it go away because the only real danger as Jung once said, the only real danger that exists is man himself just because we do not know anything of him.

Turning to religion because at one time you could not understand a certain something is effectively building a brick wall to block out part of yourself.

[KiLL3r]

So to clarify:

- Should leading scientists be free to have a faith in a "god" (as in, any "god" of their own choosing, not necessarily the Christian God)?
- Would a faith in a "god" stop scientists from achieving?
- Would the presence of a "god" really change that much about the way we view the world around us?

They can be free to believe in what they like as long as it doesnt conflict with whatever science they are undertaking.

Example a fundamentalist christian studying human history discovers evolutions "missing link". He might do the right thing and let everyone know. On the other hand due to his beliefs he might destroy any possible evidence disproving his god.

what i mean by what you quoted was god has no place in scientific understanding.

ie the sky is blue because god intelligently designed it that way.

Also, how would we be meeting aliens if it wasn't for "gods"? I don't get that

the dark ages set science back a few hundred years. look how far we've come in the last 100 years and imagine where we will be in the next hundred. without the dark ages we could be there right now.

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

Priests were the scientists of the past. Gregor Mendel was a priest and scientist. Physician Nicolaus Copernicus was a priest.
Copernicus formulated the theory that Earth was not the center of the universe, which is regarded as the starting point of modern astronomy.

In fact, I think religion has bought us many scientific advancements, it bought organization and structure which allowed progress.

the dark ages set science back a few hundred years. look how far we've come in the last 100 years and imagine where we will be in the next hundred. without the dark ages we could be there right now.

I suggest you read up on the Dark Ages, you obviously have no idea what they are
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages

Science was not 'set back', many advancements took place during that time period.

[nzr_hotsexgary]

How many people posting here are actually qualified in biology (beyond high school level)

[Bell]

noone knows shit welcome to the wiki generation

[ThaFleastyler]

I wouldn't even know my own name without Wikipedia :D