Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Zig]

why isnt it possible for science to prove god?

doesnt your god just have a superior knowledge of everything around us?

eg. a ligthbulb. if you had never seen one you wouldnt know how they worked. If i told you how then you have learned that knowledge and are then able to create your own lightbulbs.
same applys for godly powers. once you understand how it all works then you too could dom the same miracles. only drawback being these  things dont happen naturally around us so we cannt learn from them. this either means they dont exist or we just havnt discovered them yet.

everything is attainable with the right knowledge and that is exactly what science does, it searches for new knowledge.

knowledge is power and with the right kind you can do anything.

You are missing the point. If God exists, then why should the rules of the universe that he created apply to him.

To use an example like yours, say you study a motor car, having never seen or heard about one before. You pull it apart and put it back together again until you understand how it works. You still of course know absolutely nothing about Henry Ford...

And in terms of 'being a god', well of course you can turn yourself into an omnipresent, all powerful deity just by learning about God...

Science has limits. I suggest you read 'The Limits of Science' by Sir Peter Medawar, a Nobel Prize winner. He talks about the difference between questions which can be answered through Scientific method and topics which are best addressed through metaphysics and religion.

science can not be used to prove things dont exist, science looks for things and the only way you can get the idea that they dont exist is if you cant find them.

See above.

EDIT: LOL Iblis...

[Arnifix]

To use an example like yours, say you study a motor car, having never seen or heard about one before. You pull it apart and put it back together again until you understand how it works. You still of course know absolutely nothing about Henry Ford...

You'd know a lot about him actually.

[mattnz]

You'd know a lot about him actually.

How so?

[cobra]

You are missing the point. If God exists, then why should the rules of the universe that he created apply to him.

To use an example like yours, say you study a motor car, having never seen or heard about one before. You pull it apart and put it back together again until you understand how it works. You still of course know absolutely nothing about Henry Ford...

And in terms of 'being a god', well of course you can turn yourself into an omnipresent, all powerful deity just by learning about God...

Science has limits. I suggest you read 'The Limits of Science' by Sir Peter Medawar, a Nobel Prize winner. He talks about the difference between questions which can be answered through Scientific method and topics which are best addressed through metaphysics and religion.



See above.

EDIT: LOL Iblis...

so you would accept that prayer doesn't have an impact on reality - because that would be religion coming into the realms of science and that would be evidence that can be found?

[ThaFleastyler]

so you would accept that prayer doesn't have an impact on reality - because that would be religion coming into the realms of science and that would be evidence that can be found?

The thing is, prayer is at the end of a chain of things you would need to believe, in order to believe it has an impact on reality. You would need to:

a) believe that God exists
b) believe that God operates in our every day lives
c) believe that he can be petitioned to make changes in our every day life
d) believe that prayer is the way to communicate with God

I think you could believe in God and still believe prayer is B.S. The reason prayer seems ridiculous to people like yourself is that you're missing one of the prior steps (in your case, you don't believe God exists, thus everything past that seems absurd to you).

Edit: Those who believe prayer does impact on reality would argue that that in itself is proof of the divine in itself. I know of people just in my own church who believe prayer caused their hearing to return, that prayer caused cancer to go into remission, that prayer got them out of a sticky financial situation, that prayer got them their new house ... I don't really know how that is prayer coming into the realms of science, and I think you're confusing "prayer" with "divine intervention", which are different things.

[mattnz]

Crazy catholics...

Also:

Physical objects are conceptually imported into the situation as convenient intermediaries not by definition in terms of experience, but simply as irreducible posits comparable, epistemologically, to the gods of Homer . . . For my part I do, qua lay physicist, believe in physical objects and not in Homer's gods; and I consider it a scientific error to believe otherwise. But in point of epistemological footing, the physical objects and the gods differ only in degree and not in kind. Both sorts of entities enter our conceptions only as cultural posits - Willard Van Orman Quine

[UppityDuck]

c) believe that he can be petitioned to make changes in our every day life

Jim Morrison: "You cannot petition the Lord with prayer".

Those who believe prayer does impact on reality would argue that that in itself is proof of the divine in itself. I know of people just in my own church who believe prayer caused their hearing to return, that prayer caused cancer to go into remission, that prayer got them out of a sticky financial situation, that prayer got them their new house ... I don't really know how that is prayer coming into the realms of science, and I think you're confusing "prayer" with "divine intervention", which are different things.

So what is prayer without 'divine intervention'?
 Surely if these things happened due to people praying, the Good Lord obviously listened and intervened?

[Bell]

I know of people just in my own church who believe prayer caused their hearing to return, that prayer caused cancer to go into remission, that prayer got them out of a sticky financial situation, that prayer got them their new house ...

IMO opinion these people either think they are more worthy than others around the world or aren't looking at the bigger picture.

Why would earth would god worry about helping someone get a new house yet not answer the prayers of people dying of starvation or help those being raped and murdered in 3rd world countries (which are all generally very religious).
I bet those people pray alot more than the people at your church.

Shit I'd love to think some dude with magical powers had my back, but I am not that egotastical to think that said dude would give a shit about me and my desire for a house.

[ThaFleastyler]

Jim Morrison: "You cannot petition the Lord with prayer".

Jim Morrison's spiritual advice would be all good.
Until the point where he caused you to drown in your own vomit, that is.

So what is prayer without 'divine intervention'?
Surely if these things happened due to people praying, the Good Lord obviously listened and intervened?

Thats just it: often times things don't happen, and are attributed to God's answer being "no".

In a sense, how is that different than my daughter asking me for this and that, but me being selective about what I say yes to, with her best interests and the bigger picture in mind - for example, its 3pm and she asks me for a chocolate bar; what she doesn't understand or consider is that its bad for her teeth, and will ruin her appetite for dinner, which I know is coming at 6pm; all she sees is an unanswered request. God works kinda the same way, as I understand it.

IMO opinion these people either think they are more worthy than others around the world or aren't looking at the bigger picture.

Why would earth would god worry about helping someone get a new house yet not answer the prayers of people dying of starvation or help those being raped and murdered in 3rd world countries (which are all generally very religious).
I bet those people pray alot more than the people at your church.

Shit I'd love to think some dude with magical powers had my back, but I am not that egotastical to think that said dude would give a shit about me and my desire for a house.

I agree with this.

For myself, when I pray, I don't pray for myself - I usually pray and say thanks for what I do have, and ask for God to keep an eye out for my family and friends. Your point is valid - compared to my needs (which are all trivial - I tried to think of something, and the best I could do was "more rest time"), the needs you mentioned are far more important. Life's not bad when the worst thing in it is 5.45am wake-ups.

The other thing is, God is a mysterious guy - clearly, if we believe him to be all-powerful, he could help one guy with getting a house, another with a cure for cancer, and every African person with getting housing and clean water. The problem comes because he doesn't help everyone. But who could know why? I don't.


A few years back my church sent a missions trip to Fiji to help build a church there - like, 15 youth went over and helped out for a week, building a church for a group of Fijian's that numbered some 700 people, and doing menial tasks that the Fijian people probably could've done themselves. The same week this happened, a couple I know at church had to take out a second mortgage to get repairs done to their house, because they couldn't afford to pay the workmen - did they get help from my church? No, but I bet they could've used the help of 15 youth who went overseas to help where help probably wasn't needed.

My point: church/religious priorities are all out of whack, and are often self-serving.

[Arnifix]

How so?

By analysing the work of an individual it is generally possible to tell a reasonable amount of information about them. Hence how psychologists can come up with very accurate portraits of people they've never met.

PS. I didn't bother explaining that because it was pretty obviously a flawed premise.

[cobra]

The thing is, prayer is at the end of a chain of things you would need to believe, in order to believe it has an impact on reality. You would need to:

a) believe that God exists
b) believe that God operates in our every day lives
c) believe that he can be petitioned to make changes in our every day life
d) believe that prayer is the way to communicate with God

I think you could believe in God and still believe prayer is B.S. The reason prayer seems ridiculous to people like yourself is that you're missing one of the prior steps (in your case, you don't believe God exists, thus everything past that seems absurd to you).

Edit: Those who believe prayer does impact on reality would argue that that in itself is proof of the divine in itself. I know of people just in my own church who believe prayer caused their hearing to return, that prayer caused cancer to go into remission, that prayer got them out of a sticky financial situation, that prayer got them their new house ... I don't really know how that is prayer coming into the realms of science, and I think you're confusing "prayer" with "divine intervention", which are different things.

the reason why it is coming in to the realms of science is that if prayer did really do things like return hearing or cure cancer then it could be measured, it could be separated from the random fluctuation and could be proven that yes people who pray get healed more than a placebo, yet this has not happened.

the trouble with you taking the cases from your church is there is sample bias, you wont hear about the prayers that don't get answered (where are my 30 strippers god?) and so cases which might just be due the the random nature of the universe seem more significant

There have been scientific studies of the effects of prayer which indicate that the results are not the result of a god, for instance pray for a coin to show heads, flip it 100 time and you will get heads 50ish times (i know there is a classic christian out for this)

.... But who could know why? I don't.

you dont see that an obvious and simple reason why could be that there is just no god?

[ThaFleastyler]

the reason why it is coming in to the realms of science is that if prayer did really do things like return hearing or cure cancer then it could be measured, it could be separated from the random fluctuation and could be proven that yes people who pray get healed more than a placebo, yet this has not happened.

the trouble with you taking the cases from your church is there is sample bias, you wont hear about the prayers that don't get answered (where are my 30 strippers god?) and so cases which might just be due the the random nature of the universe seem more significant

There have been scientific studies of the effects of prayer which indicate that the results are not the result of a god, for instance pray for a coin to show heads, flip it 100 time and you will get heads 50ish times (i know there is a classic christian out for this)

You make some good points.

I should point out that I'm skeptical of it all as well - for example, the guys who got a house: theres another word for that - coincidence; the guy who got cancer: the illness wasn't documented and I haven't seen absolute proof that this happened - how do I know the cancer wasn't a form that goes into remission often, or that it wasn't a serious one, or that it was termed "cancerous" but was actually just a tumour?; and the people who got out of a sticky financial situation, I mean, things could've come together just right - that happens as well.

Believe me, I'm as skeptical of miracles as you are. I've actually been involved in a similar discussion, on the nature of miracles, on a Christian forum based here in NZ, where I also presented the case that proper documentation should be done before we conclude anything is a miracle.

you dont see that an obvious and simple reason why could be that there is just no god?

The fact that I don't know the nature of God doesn't compel me to believe he doesn't exist, no. I don't know your very nature either, but I believe you exist. Is that what you mean?

[swindle]

[KiLL3r]

The fact that I don't know the nature of God doesn't compel me to believe he doesn't exist, no. I don't know your very nature either, but I believe you exist. Is that what you mean?

what exactly constitutes a god in your book?

omnipotence? omniscience?

i accept that you believe theres something up/out/in there but what actually makes you believe he is a "god" not just a all powerful being?

[Zig]

the reason why it is coming in to the realms of science is that if prayer did really do things like return hearing or cure cancer then it could be measured, it could be separated from the random fluctuation and could be proven that yes people who pray get healed more than a placebo, yet this has not happened.

the trouble with you taking the cases from your church is there is sample bias, you wont hear about the prayers that don't get answered (where are my 30 strippers god?) and so cases which might just be due the the random nature of the universe seem more significant

There have been scientific studies of the effects of prayer which indicate that the results are not the result of a god, for instance pray for a coin to show heads, flip it 100 time and you will get heads 50ish times (i know there is a classic christian out for this)

As Flea said previously, if you accept the fact that there is a God, then these for the most part fall into place. It all comes down to the base assumption, of which I am by no means decided either way.

I hope nobody is fully decided is either way tbh. Everybody should be keeping an open mind to a topic such as this, for it is quite a valid proposal that our eternity hangs in the balance. It at least merits some serious thought. No matter which conclusion you come to, you probably won't have lost anything, except perhaps some time.

So if this thread at least makes someone (atheist or theist), ponder their existence a little, then I would consider it a success.

you dont see that an obvious and simple reason why could be that there is just no god?

But it's not the only possible conclusion...Which is why we are having this conversation I guess.

[nick247]

, say you study a motor car, having never seen or heard about one before. You pull it apart and put it back together again until you understand how it works. You still of course know absolutely nothing about Henry Ford...

unfortunatly the same applies to people who believe in god.... you know absolutely nothing about "henry ford"

Basically whether you're aethiest or christian or muslim etc you dont know shit either way, in fact you cant even claim that any part of your beliefs are remotely accurate....its just a very very wild guess

[Zig]

By analysing the work of an individual it is generally possible to tell a reasonable amount of information about them. Hence how psychologists can come up with very accurate portraits of people they've never met.

PS. I didn't bother explaining that because it was pretty obviously a flawed premise.

Yea the difference here is that God isn't just another individual conforming to psychological trends and habits...

And you're missing the point, I was saying that you can't necessarily use God's universe to deduce anything about him, and try to prove/disprove him. It's like Spacemonkey's simulation thread a while back, if there is an all-powerful being external of this world, what proof do we have that he does/doesn't exist?

Nick sorry, but I really didn't understand what you just said. But it is getting late. I'm going to sleep now.

[nick247]

my point is that noone knows shit when it comes to religion

Noone here can claim that one way of believing or not believing in god is any more correct than another.

Take prayer for example. How do you pray to god correctly?
The very strict religious would detail a method that must be followed involving customs and rituals.
The more reasonable religious that we have here would argue that it is more the thought of what you are doing rather than the actual practice of it.

The idea of saying thanks for what you have and being grateful for your life is more important than having the correct colour, size and shape of prayer rug.

So where does religion draw the line. I have a faith that sees me live my life by treating people with respect and treating people how i would like to be treated and also making sure my actions benefit society as a whole and i give thanks for having life by living my life and enjoying it, doing things that many other people are not able to do.

So is that religious?

If you are religious you follow "gods" rules. But you guys here admit you dont follow all of gods rules, and in many ways you dont know what gods rules actually are.

So you trust your judgement and commonsense to live your life. So what does god have to do with anything?

When you pick and choose what parts of your religion to follow you make religion redundant because you are using your commonsense to make a judgement on how to live your life....which is exactly what non-religious people do.

[Arnifix]

Yea the difference here is that God isn't just another individual conforming to psychological trends and habits...

How do you know?

[ThaFleastyler]

i accept that you believe theres something up/out/in there but what actually makes you believe he is a "god" not just a all powerful being?

What exactly would the difference between a "god" and an "all powerful being" be? The same thing, as is my understanding.

As for what makes me believe, its just a feeling - I feel like God has worked in my life, and thus believe God exists. Like I've said before, I went to a Christian church, and have looked around a little bit, and feel like the Christian God, the God of the bible, is the guy.

[cobra]

The fact that I don't know the nature of God doesn't compel me to believe he doesn't exist, no. I don't know your very nature either, but I believe you exist. Is that what you mean?

it is more you asked a question, saying that it is basically impossible to say why god does some thing and not others - many questions arise like this if you start from a point of god, but from the position ofno god these problems vanish and everything falls into place

on the inverse - no problems arise from no god - i never need to ask "why did this burning bush command me to...", "why have i been given these tablets with rules on by a space monster" you never have issues that need a god to explain them

[Zig]

How do you know?

He's not a human, why would he conform to our trends and habits. That doesn't even make sense...

So where does religion draw the line. I have a faith that sees me live my life by treating people with respect and treating people how i would like to be treated and also making sure my actions benefit society as a whole and i give thanks for having life by living my life and enjoying it, doing things that many other people are not able to do.

So is that religious?

If you are religious you follow "gods" rules. But you guys here admit you dont follow all of gods rules, and in many ways you dont know what gods rules actually are.

So you trust your judgement and commonsense to live your life. So what does god have to do with anything?

You made some good points.

I believe in God, not religion. Religion is mans invention, and as you pointed out it has many flaws. Sure I try to live my life according to what I believe are his rules, but by using my common sense I'm also not naive enough to think I have all the answers.

When you pick and choose what parts of your religion to follow you make religion redundant because you are using your commonsense to make a judgement on how to live your life....which is exactly what non-religious people do.

Well like I said I'm not religious, but I know what you're saying. It is exactly what non-religious people do, except for the God bit... (could be the tie-breaker, if you know what I mean?)

[Zhija]

it is more you asked a question, saying that it is basically impossible to say why god does some thing and not others - many questions arise like this if you start from a point of god, but from the position ofno god these problems vanish and everything falls into place

on the inverse - no problems arise from no god - i never need to ask "why did this burning bush command me to...", "why have i been given these tablets with rules on by a space monster" you never have issues that need a god to explain them

I lol'd tbh. Of course, that makes perfect sense. If there's no God then a talking burning bush and a space monster giving you tablets with rules on them are perfectly normal. No need to question anything at all there.


But apart from that bad example I see where your coming from this time Cobra. An example for me is I'm attending uni this year(Should be year 13 in college), but I did absolutely NO work during school, at all. I'm serious, I did NOT study. I barely scraped through, but my friend who is smarter and studied half the year is attending his final year rather than coming to uni with me which he would much rather do. Doesn't seem fair tbh and raises questions, but I have to trust that there is a reason for this.
In the future if something happens to me/him and it all makes sense after that I will be sure to post about it though.

[UppityDuck]

An example for me is I'm attending uni this year(Should be year 13 in college), but I did absolutely NO work during school, at all. I'm serious, I did NOT study. I barely scraped through, but my friend who is smarter and studied half the year is attending his final year rather than coming to uni with me which he would much rather do.

A good case for restricted entry tbh.

Doesn't seem fair tbh and raises questions, but I have to trust that there is a reason for this.

Oh lordy...really? The reason is that you played the system while your mate wants to ensure his education is complete?

What happens when you find out there is no reason and that this life is it?
In all my searching I have not found any evidence of God. I have not heard voices beyond my psychedelic experiences. Every time I endeavour to understand why people have such a crutch I come back to humans manipulating other humans.

He's not a human, why would he conform to our trends and habits. That doesn't even make sense...

How do you know he's not a human....a super-evolved human with a time machine? That's plausible.

I love the gender bias of God. The more I look at it the more it becomes a group of crusty fellows worried about losing their grasp on power.

To me, God is an unjust, misogynistic, veangeful, retributive, jealous arse.
It's just as well I can do without 'him'. He is as death, to me; that is: Nil.

You can have all the smarmy comebacks about free will and the loving god of the New Testament and the redundant argument of faith vs religion, but that will just display your misunderstanding of those.

Human construct folks. That's it!

[ThaFleastyler]

it is more you asked a question, saying that it is basically impossible to say why god does some thing and not others - many questions arise like this if you start from a point of god, but from the position ofno god these problems vanish and everything falls into place

on the inverse - no problems arise from no god - i never need to ask "why did this burning bush command me to...", "why have i been given these tablets with rules on by a space monster" you never have issues that need a god to explain them

I lol'd tbh. Of course, that makes perfect sense. If there's no God then a talking burning bush and a space monster giving you tablets with rules on them are perfectly normal. No need to question anything at all there.

Dammit, Zhija got in with the funny reply before I could

Seriously though, I think I know what you mean - if I'm right, what you mean is that if you start with God, then you will use God to explain things away rather than rely on science or logical thinking to explain things, right?

In that regard, how would science explain Moses hearing a voice in a burning bush? Or a space monster giving Moses two stone tablets with commandments on them? Or, perhaps more relevant, how does science explain the mass delusion of billions of people who believe they have experienced and hear from God regularly?

I don't know that we can come up with an answer that everyone will be happy with. Maybe, lets just start with this:

Do you believe there are things in this world - not necessarily god, or to do with a particular belief system - that can't be explained through science? Anything at all?