Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[cobra]

My god, I've managed to go through 334 posts without insulting a single person, but you are actually retarded sometimes cobra.

No offense of course

good to see you have the critical reasoning and arguing skills of a typical believer

cobra, I have an e-crush on you. If I could rep you any more, the whole system would crash.

big fan of your work too Iblis

Actually I should probably explain the above statement properly: when something is posted, it is expected that a certain level of intelligence is required to receive said post, when one does not receive said post and it needs to be explained to them, that's fine, they just might not understand it too well, but when a certain person finds it difficult to understand every second post in a thread (exaggeration I admit), something is wrong.

oh, so it turns out you are the retard, thanks for explaining - i will explain so hopefully you will be able to understand - if the words become too difficult to understand i can use venn diagrams


you posted

....but it shows that there is a place for God in this day and age.

and your post had no reasoning as to why "there is a place for god" - you just tacked it on the end of your hypothetical story - since you hadn't provided any reasoning i was giving you a chance to back it up - you know, with words and ideas

[Zhija]

Ok then, let me put it this way.

Where is there NO room for God.

Obviously I can see where religion can get in the way, but where in the entirety of the universe, does a God get in the way of a single thing.

And I don't need to point out of course, that science explains how things happen, rather than the original cause of it, ie. the theory of evolution does little to explain how the first organisms came to exist. And we know that opposite magnetic forces are attracted to each other, but WHY are they attracted to each other. They have an opposite interpolation? What makes this opposite interpolation react in such a way, why don't they get pushed away?

Please, I would love to see a rational explanation for things like this, and for why God gets in the way of things.

[cobra]

Ok then, let me put it this way.

Where is there NO room for God.

there is no room for a god that has any impact as that impact would be noticed

... and for why God gets in the way of things.

and god doesn't get in the way of things - much like i have never had a unicorn get in the way of my driving

[Zhija]

there is no room for a god that has any impact as that impact would be noticed



and god doesn't get in the way of things - much like i have never had a unicorn get in the way of my driving

There is always room for something that doesn't get in the way. And that impact 'is noticed', whether or not its peoples imaginations or actual miracles, it's noticed.

But if I am missing the point of this post, please explain it in further detail.

[cobra]

There is always room for something that doesn't get in the way.

things that dont get in the way tend to not be real

And that impact 'is noticed', whether or not its peoples imaginations or actual miracles, it's noticed.

people calling random events miracles is very different from people experiencing miracles - you can claim that the sun is due to leprechaun magic, and point out the sun as strong evidence for leprechauns but it doesn't make it true

[Zhija]

True, but that does little to prove there is no room for God.

These are all good points, but for a different argument.

[cobra]

True, but that does little to prove there is no room for God.

i will admit that there is room for god, things that dont exist take up little space - there is room for over 9000 leprechauns in my hat, that doesn't increase the chances of finding a leprechaun in there

[Iblis]

and god doesn't get in the way of things - much like i have never had a unicorn get in the way of my driving

I started loling

things that dont get in the way tend to not be real
people calling random events miracles is very different from people experiencing miracles - you can claim that the sun is due to leprechaun magic, and point out the sun as strong evidence for leprechauns but it doesn't make it true

I started loling more heartily

i will admit that there is room for god, things that dont exist take up little space - there is room for over 9000 leprechauns in my hat, that doesn't increase the chances of finding a leprechaun in there

sweet f*cking jesus i almost fell off my chair!  :spin: :laff:

[Scunner]

Yes, sorry, to go back in a circle ...

It is not hypocritical and ignorant. Nor do atheists say this is based on their "observations and experiences" as you attempted to personalise it into appearing as though atheists are just as subjective as religious individuals. Atheists weigh all the evidence and history and will accept any correlation between the empirical evidence and biblical lore. The problem is, there isn't any.

What I was trying to say is that the way I see it is that Atheists believe there is no god based on the evidence as they see it in a similar way to how religious people believe there is a god. Atheists will examine the empirical evidence compare it to biblical lore and say that it shows that the bible (and other religious texts) is wrong and this shows there is no god as described in the bible. Which is fair enough but, in my opinion, there is some subjectivity in saying this and other evidence I have picked up/found/experienced/etc. tells me that there is no god or higher power at all. This is just how I see it as I can not see anything that shows there is definitely no god or higher power at all.

think about this - why is it different saying this for a god

There is no difference here. I have never said there is a god, just that there is nothing to show there is no god or other higher power at all and to say so requires some belief that this is so, which also applies when a religious person says there is a god.

why is it hypocritical and ignorant?

not all decisions are equal, it is fair enough to say some one is irrational or illogical if they are making irrational or illogical choices based on their observations and experiences. For example it would be irrational or illogical for me, based on my observation and experiences of horses, to say that magical unicorns definitely do exist - but you are claiming it would be hypocritical and ignorant for any one to claim that.

No, I was trying to say it would be hypocritical and ignorant for someone to say based on my observation and experiences of horses, magical unicorns definitely do exist and then say its irrational and illogical for someone else to say based on their observation and experiences of horses magical unicorns definitely do not exist.

[cobra]

............ just that there is nothing to show there is no god or other higher power at all ..............

this is a concept that seems to confuse people

no-things do not have evidence that they dont exist - the fact that they dont exist means that they can't leave evidence or anti-evidence or what ever you think these no-things leave to prove that they dont exist

for example - the is no evidence that there is no horse in my lounge - no evidence whats so ever.

but there is a lack of evidence that there is a horse - horses tend to leave evidence, things like you can see them, touch them and other horse like qualities - so i take that lack of evidence as proof that there is no horse - i have been using this technique for years and it has never steered me wrong

now i hope you can all see why a lack of evidence that something doesn't exist is not a strong argument for it existing, only evidence for it existing should be considered

[Iblis]

This is just how I see it as I can not see anything that shows there is definitely no god or higher power at all.

You'll notice in most of my posts that I make a very careful distinction about the "god" that I flatly deny. This "god" is so far removed from what I consider to be a possible deity that it would be like calling a photon a leprechaun-emitted-magic-light-module.

[swindle]

And we know that opposite magnetic forces are attracted to each other, but WHY are they attracted to each other. They have an opposite interpolation? What makes this opposite interpolation react in such a way, why don't they get pushed away?

Please, I would love to see a rational explanation for things like this

Start reading.

[Scunner]

this is a concept that seems to confuse people

no-things do not have evidence that they dont exist - the fact that they dont exist means that they can't leave evidence or anti-evidence or what ever you think these no-things leave to prove that they dont exist

for example - the is no evidence that there is no horse in my lounge - no evidence whats so ever.

but there is a lack of evidence that there is a horse - horses tend to leave evidence, things like you can see them, touch them and other horse like qualities - so i take that lack of evidence as proof that there is no horse - i have been using this technique for years and it has never steered me wrong

now i hope you can all see why a lack of evidence that something doesn't exist is not a strong argument for it existing, only evidence for it existing should be considered

I do see your point. If there is no provable evidence that something exists then it can't exist. There doesn't need to be evidence for it not existing. But we're talking about a higher power and I still think there is some faith involved in saying that it does not exist at all, even with no evidence to prove it exists. To use your example, we're essentially talking about a magical horse that doesn't want to leave any evidence and is just watching you live your life. There is no evidence for it but it is still possible and as there is some faith involved in saying it definitely does exist, there is also some faith involved in saying it definitely does not exist.

Or to put it a bit clearer, sure things that don't exist don't leave any evidence to show they do or don't exist, but what's to say things that do exist have to leave evidence to show they do or don't exist?

[cobra]

I do see your point. If there is no provable evidence that something exists then it can't exist. There doesn't need to be evidence for it not existing.

i am glad you understand - it is something that most people find difficult to grasp

i will discuss your points after work

[Arnifix]

I do see your point. If there is no provable evidence that something exists then it can't exist. There doesn't need to be evidence for it not existing.

I disagree. If there is no evidence that X exists, all that proves is that we are currently unable to observe any evidence that X exists, not that X does not exist. While you could certainly argue (and I have) that there is no need for X to exist, it would be foolhardy to deny the possibility that advances in our observational capacity may allow us to observe previously unobservable phenomenon.

[UppityDuck]

We are the be all and end all


bollocks

[huey31415]

I disagree. If there is no evidence that X exists, all that proves is that we are currently unable to observe any evidence that X exists, not that X does not exist. While you could certainly argue (and I have) that there is no need for X to exist, it would be foolhardy to deny the possibility that advances in our observational capacity may allow us to observe previously unobservable phenomenon.

Surely this whole line of thought was already discussed at the beginning of the thread and probably more than once. What makes this even more annoying is the fact that it's all just common sense. A lack of evidence that something exists proves nothing and is unhelpful. Only the presence of evidence that something does exist is helpful. Please stop talking about this stupid side issue.

[UppityDuck]

What does we bases our criteria on???

feel free tom start at begi....oh i can't bne fuvkef

[UppityDuck]

Arse

Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[cobra]

There is no evidence for it but it is still possible and as there is some faith involved in saying it definitely does exist, there is also some faith involved in saying it definitely does not exist.

I disagree. If there is no evidence that X exists, all that proves is that we are currently unable to observe any evidence that X exists, not that X does not exist. While you could certainly argue (and I have) that there is no need for X to exist, it would be foolhardy to deny the possibility that advances in our observational capacity may allow us to observe previously unobservable phenomenon.

Scunner - the only god possible is one that is impotent rather then omnipotent. and for all intents and purposes is exactly the same as nothing.

Arnifix is in essence right - if there is no evidence for something all you can really claim is that there is no evidence for something. But if there is no evidence for something then that "thing" is exactly the same as nothing.

But rather then worry about things that could conceivably exist but are exactly the same as nothing it seems the best solution is to treat them as nothing, this doesn't require faith, it is just saying if something is indistinguishable from nothing then i will treat it as nothing which seems to me to be a reasonably logical position to take

[nick247]

Why do people have religious beliefs and support religious beliefs?

Is it because there is something so intrinsically right or correct or good about spirituality and religion or is there something more? Are there motives tied to religion that point more towards the nature of being human and even the weaknesses of humans and our inherrent flaws?

I believe there is.


1) culture
Your parents were Christians or your close society are religious and now you are religious. You're thoughts and beliefs towards this issue are molded by your society.

In comparision aetheism is less ingrained within culture and less preachy. Aethiest parents probably wont sit their child down and spend time telling them that their ISNT a god.

2) The drug effect
For some people religion gives their life meaning. They are more comfortable living in a world where there is a higher power or some sort of destiny to their life.

This aspect of spirituality is important but it is also a drug that is likely to pervert many peoples actions.

Do you really believe in this religion you are following and the things it teaches or do you HAVE TO BELIEVE because if you dont your life loses meaning? If so does that make you a free thinking individual or is religion now something you must keep taking to keep you happy in life.

This effect exists in all aspects of our life. But I argue that it brings religion down to the human level. Religion is more like a form of escapism than some amazing super duper out of this world thing. Like watching TV.

3)Fear of death

The afterlife continues this effect. "I believe in religion because it is true and the message it teaches is good for society AND I WANT TO GET INTO HEAVEN"

This is another effect perverting peoples motives.

4)The group

Being part of a group is important considering humans are such social creatures. Religion provides people with a group or community to belong to.

However in a group you often give up part of what you actually believe and you accept things you might not normally accept, in order to maintain harmony.

"I dont actually believe in all this holy trinity stuff but i like being a part of a group that talks about spirituality"

5) Distance and time----humans are lazy
It is difficult to find a spiritual belief system that is perfect for you. There are so many options out there and information can be hard to come by. Plus there might not be practicing groups within your neighbourhood.

So chances are a religious set of beliefs is accepted based on distance to travel for meetings and ease with which you can find information.

People talk about the importance of their spiritual beliefs so shouldnt time and distance be irrelevent?

----------


I would easily go so far as to say that the majority of religious people are effected by at least one of the above.

SO when i meet a religious person i dont see someone who truely believes. I see someone who is very likely to have tricked themselves into believing. Someone who is accepting aspects of religion based not on the content of religion but on external factors.

You can talk all you want about believing but i know that for many of you the real reasons have nothing to do with spirtuality and more to do with fullfilling certain human needs.

And if you believe religion is so important then you will realise what a contradiction/hypocrisy it would be if i was right.

[ThaFleastyler]

Surely this whole line of thought was already discussed at the beginning of the thread and probably more than once. What makes this even more annoying is the fact that it's all just common sense. A lack of evidence that something exists proves nothing and is unhelpful. Only the presence of evidence that something does exist is helpful. Please stop talking about this stupid side issue.

Its an important distinction to make though, don't you think?
Arnifix's post at least warrants fair discussion.

[nick247]

If you truely believe in the importance of spirituality and religion then heres what you SHOULD do.....

You need to study it. In all its forms across the world.

Humans are flawed and not to be trusted. Our human motives will pervert our thoughts, actions and beliefs.

You need to remove from yourself all human desires.

You must remove yourself from outside influences.

In doing so you respect your religious decision and the importance of it towards your life. You prove that you truely believe because you have made the decision as a free thinking individual.

That is how people should approach something that they claim is as important as religion...............................

Do people do that? no because we dont actual believe religion is that important

ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS

[Tiwaking!]

If you truely believe in the importance of spirituality and religion then heres what you SHOULD do.....

You need to study it. In all its forms across the world.

Humans are flawed and not to be trusted. Our human motives will pervert our thoughts, actions and beliefs.

You need to remove from yourself all human desires.

You must remove yourself from outside influences.

The greatest achievement is selflessness.
The greatest worth is self-mastery.
The greatest quality is seeking to serve others.
The greatest precept is continual awareness.
The greatest medicine is the emptiness of everything.
The greatest action is not conforming with the worlds ways.
The greatest magic is transmuting the passions.
The greatest generosity is non-attachment.
The greatest goodness is a peaceful mind.
The greatest patience is humility.
The greatest effort is not concerned with results.
The greatest meditation is a mind that lets go.
The greatest wisdom is seeing through appearances.

Atisha (11th century Tibetan Buddhist master)

[Dr Woomanchu]

The greatest achievement is selflessness.
The greatest worth is self-mastery.
The greatest quality is seeking to serve others.
The greatest precept is continual awareness.
The greatest medicine is the emptiness of everything.
The greatest action is not conforming with the worlds ways.
The greatest magic is transmuting the passions.
The greatest generosity is non-attachment.
The greatest goodness is a peaceful mind.
The greatest patience is humility.
The greatest effort is not concerned with results.
The greatest meditation is a mind that lets go.
The greatest wisdom is seeing through appearances.

Atisha (11th century Tibetan Buddhist master)

A worthy personal code