Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Blob_ZPS]

To build a complete model of the universe would take more energy the universe contains.

Rofl although that is true i think you miss the point of the argument, in fact you are equivocating the fact that we are saying that the universe can be explained by science eventually, ie. that there wont be anything unexplainable, not that we will be able to predict anything and everything that is ever going to happen in the future, even though no matter what happened we would still be able to explain it using existing theories if they were complete.
Science would still be able to explain and understand everything, it just would not be able to predict whats going to happen in the future using such a "model" which is absurd anyway seeing as the universe is probabilistic rather than deterministic.

No, he explained it perfectly.

Science can not explain everything about the universe (and everything else) where science itself is constricted by the laws of the universe itself.

Errr, everything else?
No i think youre missing the definition of universe : everything that exists anywhere.
If something existed somewhere else, its still somewhere ergo its in the universe.

Well, lets make the definition clear then.

Our universe, which started with the Big Bang.

But what about other universes?

Universe: "everything that exists anywhere".
If its not somewhere then it doesnt exist.

Besides, even if you allow for a *different* definition of universe, such as some place that exists but we can never go there or some BS.
Such a place is unfalsifiable so its not science, you're talking religion now.

[Virus.]

Just wondering, Rice... How can you be certain your level of belief is the correct one? I mean, how do you know that your interperetation (which is indeed something completely separate from the morals taught by the old testament) is the correct interperetation over say, the Christian from another church next door, who may indeed be destined to go to heaven where you are determined to go to hell?

You say your faith is based on your personal relationship with Jesus, and follow his morals written in the New Testament, and that's what will eventually get you into heaven. How do you know his teachings, or indeed his existence, to be true?

[Blob_ZPS]

Can you give me an example?

Anything beyond the event horizon of a black hole
The properties of objects in areas that are expanding faster than the speed of light
Anything outside your light cone, actually

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation

Anything outside your light cone, actually

You do not want to go there, that kind of Bs philosopop is basically half-baked religion.
Although I dont "know" if theres a big purple dragon behind me, to assume that there isnt is not irrational, in fact in most countries to assume the contrapositive would probably lead to medical care.

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

^ What Spoon said, anything outside out light cone, the light from it will never reach us, no light, no evidence, nothing for science to explain.

Which means science can never explain everything. The universe is just too big, and if your talking about the universe as 'everything that exists anywhere', then you can never claim that's it's finite, how can you?

[Blob_ZPS]

^ What Spoon said, anything outside out light cone, the light will never reach it, no light, no evidence, nothing for science to explain.

Which means science can never explain everything.

By light cone you do mean what you see with your eyes right?
Because the visible universe is a sphere, just in case youre talking about something like that?

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

^ What Spoon said, anything outside out light cone, the light will never reach it, no light, no evidence, nothing for science to explain.

Which means science can never explain everything.

By light cone you do mean what you see with your eyes right?
Because the visible universe is a sphere, just in case youre talking about something like that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_cone

Have a read.

[Spoonguard]

Just wondering, Rice... How can you be certain your level of belief is the correct one? I mean, how do you know that your interperetation (which is indeed something completely separate from the morals taught by the old testament) is the correct interperetation over say, the Christian from another church next door, who may indeed be destined to go to heaven where you are determined to go to hell?

You say your faith is based on your personal relationship with Jesus, and follow his morals written in the New Testament, and that's what will eventually get you into heaven. How do you know his teachings, or indeed his existence, to be true?

It's because Jesus will save you if you have faith in him....

[Virus.]

Because the visible universe is a sphere, just in case youre talking about something like that?

ORLYNOW?

[Dr Woomanchu]

If the universe is finite, then the number of things there are to be explained must also be finite, even if the number is obscenely large.

But then you would need to explain why the universe is finite, and the possibility of other universe.

However much we learn, we will also keeping learning that there is so much more we don't understand.

Anything outside the observable universe is in the god box.

I got re-interested in this thread because of Rices comments re: what you woudl say if god appeared in front of you. My position is that if he/she/it appears in front of you, then they aren't god(s)

The problem is that gods by their very definition are unfalsifiable. If gods become measurable and explicable, they're just science. Which is why peoples gods always move to fill the bits science hasn't got to.

[Retardobot]

ITT: Blop telling you you've missed the point.

[Blob_ZPS]

I see what you mean by light cone but that doesnt mean that it cannot be observed, it just means not by you, or anyone you could communicate with =p.
And that doesnt change the fact that science, if all theories were complete, could explain those events although you shouldn't expect it to because theyre unscientific by definition.

ITT: Blop telling you you've missed the point.

It seems there is a lot of equivocation going on, im guilty of that in some cases myself so it pays to be clear what you are actually debating or else you will just end up in a straw man.

[Spoonguard]

I mean, some of these issues might have solutions. We might find a flawless method of instant communication, which would mostly solve the light cone problem. The universe may not actually have areas that move faster than the speed of light, so that might be irrelevant.

But the Black hole thing, well. What little we do know of black holes is that they are very effective at destroying information. Even if we somehow someday get perfect information back from inside the black hole there are still thousands of black swan events and objects out there that will baffle all explanation. Science's progress in understanding everything is a hyperbola, I think it would be very boring otherwise.

[Blob_ZPS]

I mean, some of these issues might have solutions. We might find a flawless method of instant communication, which would mostly solve the light cone problem. The universe may not actually have areas that move faster than the speed of light, so that might be irrelevant.

But the Black hole thing, well. What little we do know of black holes is that they are very effective at destroying information. Even if we somehow someday get perfect information back from inside the black hole there are still thousands of black swan events and objects out there that will baffle all explanation. Science's progress in understanding everything is a hyperbola, I think it would be very boring otherwise.

For the record, no where "moves" faster than the speed of light, its the spacetime which is explanding rather than any point on it moving.

[Spoonguard]

while we are on the subject blop, do you think n = np? show your working

[Blob_ZPS]

while we are on the subject blop, do you think n = np? show your working

Im assuming you mean p=np or p=!np, if I knew that I would be very rich indeed, if it was the former i would be inside your bank acccount steealing your cash monies right now.

[Spoonguard]

while we are on the subject blop, do you think n = np? show your working

Im assuming you mean p=np or p=!np, if I knew that I would be very rich indeed, if it was the former i would be inside your bank acccount steealing your cash monies right now.

yeh, a typo. Do you think it will ever be solved?

also I have no monies. do you think you could be inside my bank account supplying it with monies instead

[Blob_ZPS]

while we are on the subject blop, do you think n = np? show your working

Im assuming you mean p=np or p=!np, if I knew that I would be very rich indeed, if it was the former i would be inside your bank acccount steealing your cash monies right now.

yeh, a typo. Do you think it will ever be solved?

Perhaps, but maybe not in polynomial time

[Spoonguard]

while we are on the subject blop, do you think n = np? show your working

Im assuming you mean p=np or p=!np, if I knew that I would be very rich indeed, if it was the former i would be inside your bank acccount steealing your cash monies right now.

yeh, a typo. Do you think it will ever be solved?

Perhaps, but maybe not in polynomial time

soooooooOoOOOooo how does this not apply to the universe at large? I'm very confused. Genuinely confused, not that sophism I was dicking around with earlier. Is there some infinite time in the universe I am not aware of?

[Blob_ZPS]

while we are on the subject blop, do you think n = np? show your working

Im assuming you mean p=np or p=!np, if I knew that I would be very rich indeed, if it was the former i would be inside your bank acccount steealing your cash monies right now.

yeh, a typo. Do you think it will ever be solved?

Perhaps, but maybe not in polynomial time

soooooooOoOOOooo how does this not apply to the universe at large? I'm very confused. Genuinely confused, not that sophism I was dicking around with earlier. Is there some infinite time in the universe I am not aware of?

Perhaps jokes about p=!np cannot be solved outside a math department in polynomial time either rofl

Actually you could do some freaky shit whereby you fly around the universe at 0.9..(infinity many nines)..9c for an infinite amount of time, and when you come back down to your initial velocity youre idea of the inifinte amount of time that has passed will be different from the rest of the universe, in fact their time will be several orders of infinity (lmao) longer.

[Spoonguard]

while we are on the subject blop, do you think n = np? show your working

Im assuming you mean p=np or p=!np, if I knew that I would be very rich indeed, if it was the former i would be inside your bank acccount steealing your cash monies right now.

yeh, a typo. Do you think it will ever be solved?

Perhaps, but maybe not in polynomial time

soooooooOoOOOooo how does this not apply to the universe at large? I'm very confused. Genuinely confused, not that sophism I was dicking around with earlier. Is there some infinite time in the universe I am not aware of?

Perhaps jokes about p=!np cannot be solved outside a math department in polynomial time either rofl

Actually you could do some freaky shit whereby you fly around the universe at 0.9..(infinity many nines)..9c for an infinite amount of time, and when you come back down to your initial velocity youre idea of the inifinte amount of time that has passed will be different from the rest of the universe, in fact their time will be several orders of infinity (lmao) longer.

This talk of powers of infinities sounds dangerously like moving outside of the universe. Surely an infinite period of time is enough to tunnel out of it.

[Blob_ZPS]

This talk of powers of infinities sounds dangerously like moving outside of the universe.

No more than to say that the real numbers are infinitely more infinite than the natural numbers.
Or that there if an infinite amount of infinisteimally small distances between you and me, and if you make each of those infinitesimal increments infinitesimally smaller by dividing it into infinitely many infinitesimal parts you will have infinitely many more infinitesimal parts.
Haha

[Spoonguard]

This talk of powers of infinities sounds dangerously like moving outside of the universe.

No more than to say that the real numbers are infinitely more infinite than the natural numbers.
Or that there if an infinite amount of infinisteimally small distances between you and me, and if you make each of those infinitesimal increments infinitesimally smaller by dividing it into infinitely many infinitesimal parts you will have infinitely many more infinitesimal parts.
Haha

Or instead of outrunning that arrow that is moving faster than you I just fucking stab you >:-(

[Blob_ZPS]

This talk of powers of infinities sounds dangerously like moving outside of the universe.

No more than to say that the real numbers are infinitely more infinite than the natural numbers.
Or that there if an infinite amount of infinisteimally small distances between you and me, and if you make each of those infinitesimal increments infinitesimally smaller by dividing it into infinitely many infinitesimal parts you will have infinitely many more infinitesimal parts.
Haha

Or instead of outrunning that arrow that is moving faster than you I just fucking stab you >:-(

Perhaps I'll just escape through a wormhole.

[Spoonguard]

This talk of powers of infinities sounds dangerously like moving outside of the universe.

No more than to say that the real numbers are infinitely more infinite than the natural numbers.
Or that there if an infinite amount of infinisteimally small distances between you and me, and if you make each of those infinitesimal increments infinitesimally smaller by dividing it into infinitely many infinitesimal parts you will have infinitely many more infinitesimal parts.
Haha

Or instead of outrunning that arrow that is moving faster than you I just fucking stab you >:-(

Perhaps I'll just escape through a wormhole.

So I am not allowed to tunnel out of the universe but you can. Unfair.

[Blob_ZPS]

So I am not allowed to tunnel out of the universe but you can. Unfair.

Tunneling within the universe between two points is fine.