Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Dr Woomanchu]

^^ Don't buy that chart at all. Nowhere on it for someone who considers the concept of an unmeasurable,unspecifiable mystic entity to be in the category of absurd things we imagine .So "knowing"  various god(s) don't exist is no more significant than knowing there isn't an invisible chocolate cake sitting on my desk, or knowing that there's no  green elephants on jupiter.

The non existence of god(s) in objective reality is implied in the various definitions of them.

[Zarkov]

So there.

[dirtyape]

^^ Don't buy that chart at all. Nowhere on it for someone who considers the concept of an unmeasurable,unspecifiable mystic entity to be in the category of absurd things we imagine .So "knowing"  various god(s) don't exist is no more significant than knowing there isn't an invisible chocolate cake sitting on my desk, or knowing that there's no  green elephants on jupiter.

The non existence of god(s) in objective reality is implied in the various definitions of them.

That's a gnostic atheist. Your premise states what the god is (an unmeasurable, unspecifiable mystic entity), albeit vague, and that you are denying exists. If you are saying that under no circumstance can an unmeasurable unspecified mystic entity exist then you are a precisely gnostic atheist. Gnosis meaning "Knowledge of spiritual mysteries".

You can flesh out the details of the "god" as you will, it is largely irrelevant. But the diagram is to used per definition. If you want to say "god" is a supernatural green elephant on jupiter or an mystical invisible cake on your desk then so be it. The diagram applies regardless.

When you boil it down to the sufficiently vague interpretation of "god" as you do in your original premise, then the simple fact of the matter is that unless you understand what existence is, what reality is, how the universe came to exist then you would be a bit arrogant, presumptive, and dishonest in saying that a mystic unmeasurable entity cannot exist. It would be much more honest to say that we have not seen any reason for it to exist, but it may, we do not know. And that is agnostic atheism.

Unless I misunderstand you and you are actually saying that there is no space on the diagram for the ignostic or some other theological non-cognitivisit that gets all wanky when it comes to the definition of "god". In which case you could just put a "WTF?" in the middle and write ignostic underneath it.

Well that's my opinion at least, for what it's worth.

Your avatar is NSFW btw.

[SteddieEddie]

Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Dr Woomanchu]

What I am saying Ape, is that the term gnostic atheist is pretty well meaningless.

Gnostic means with knowledge, atheist means without belief. I know I don't believe in in any one of millions of absurd concepts, including gods. That doesn't mean I know they don't exist any more than I can ever know that there's no green jelly at the centre of the sun. If anything, the jelly concept is less absurd than the god concept.

I'll change the avatar

[dirtyape]

What I am saying Ape, is that the term gnostic atheist is pretty well meaningless.

Gnostic means with knowledge, atheist means without belief. I know I don't believe in in any one of millions of absurd concepts, including gods. That doesn't mean I know they don't exist any more than I can ever know that there's no green jelly at the centre of the sun. If anything, the jelly concept is less absurd than the god concept.

I'll change the avatar

There are reasons why it is unlikely to find green jelly at the centre of the sun, the laws of nature which we have so far unravelled suggest it would be impossible for such a structure to exist mainly because liquid water could not theoretically exist there. Same for floating teapots, they are unlikely to exist because thermodynamics tells us such a structure does not naturally evolve from chaos. This is knowledge we do actually possess.

I don't think the term is meaningless, it makes perfect sense in this frame of reference. Gnostic mysticism is knowledge outside of human understanding. If you say that it is impossible for anything mystical to exist then you claim to have knowledge which you do not possess. It is literally that simple.

At the best you can say probably not, natural laws as we understand them suggest such a thing is not possible. From what I have learned of this reality we all inhabit I can see how it is unlikely our human minds can begin to imagine what the universe actually is. Best we can do is describe it in ways we can understand and exploit. Basically there are plenty of places for mysticism.

[Dr Woomanchu]

My take on mysticism is that it is fundamentally subjective. a branch of human attempts to comprehend the environment they exist in.  I'm pretty much as amystic as I am atheist.

Everything we have managed to learn about the universe we can observe follows some pretty fundamental tenants. We have yet to find anything at all that requires a sentient creator. That said, there are an multitude of scenarios that could involve some kind of sentient intent in the universes creation, but everything we have found out about our universe to date can be explained in ways that has no requirement for a sentient driving force. We will never know enough to utterly and irrefutably remove every imagionable scenario that invovles a sentient hand in the universe's creation.

That said, the human conception of a knowing god who is aware of, and takes and interest in our existence is indeed more absurd than jelly in the heart of the sun. Maybe there is an advanced species who've created a bathysphere type vessel that can exist at the heart of a star and one is in our sun containing a green jelly. I can imagine the conditions that could allow that to occur more easily than I can imagine a sentient creature who fits even some of the varying human definitions of god.

[dirtyape]

But in saying that you can concieve of a species that could create green jelly at the heart of a sun and that this is more plausable then some mystical creator is a subjective opinion. Science says that neither are likely, but to subjectively choose to refute one and accept the possibility of another is a double standard. I am not talking about individual expressions of mysticism, but the concept itself. Why is it less likely that there is an intelligent entity that created the universe? I think we judge intelligence by our own standard, imagining something with biological intelligence, but is that the only possible form of intelligence? To be honest, I don't know and won't pretend to know. But I do know that biological intelligence is ridiculously limited. For all we know stars could be sentient. The universe itself could be.

[Zarkov]

Everything we have managed to learn about the universe we can observe follows some pretty fundamental tenants. We have yet to find anything at all that requires a sentient creator. That said, there are an multitude of scenarios that could involve some kind of sentient intent in the universes creation, but everything we have found out about our universe to date can be explained in ways that has no requirement for a sentient driving force. We will never know enough to utterly and irrefutably remove every imagionable scenario that invovles a sentient hand in the universe's creation..

We already know enough to remove every imaginable scenario.

Maybe not all the unimaginable scenarios, but I can't think what they might be.

[dirtyape]

We already know enough to remove every imaginable scenario.

Maybe not all the unimaginable scenarios, but I can't think what they might be.

That's the idea, I think you get it cat.

[swindle]

Sooooooooooo have we gone full circle yet or what? You guys still fucking around?

[SteddieEddie]

It's a weighty subject

[dirtyape]

http://i.imgur.com/9IZWu.jpg[/img]

28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

[BerG]

Only fifty shekels of silver for a virgin!?

No wonder this Christianity thing is so popular.

[dirtyape]

with prices like that it's hardly a wonder - plus a get into heaven free card...? sold!

[Bell]

Only fifty shekels of silver for a virgin!?

No wonder this Christianity thing is so popular.

Not bad for $18 NZD certainly cheaper than Russian prices

[Zarkov]

Poor religion.

So many contradictions.

No wonder it's got such a bad name.

[Tiwaking!]

Sooooooooooo have we gone full circle yet or what? You guys still fucking around?

Once upon a time there was a young man lying down enjoying a sunlight day in a field in Alsace-Lorraine.

Every now and again a person traveling down the nearby road would pass by, and less occasionally they would stop and ask him for directions.
"I am going to University. Will this road take me to Strasbourg?"
"No. It will not.", he would reply.
"But the signpost says it goes to Strasbourg."
"The signpost is wrong."

To which the traveler would thank him, turn around and head back to the other road.

More frequently, travelers who had never asked for directions would be found trudging back sullenly from a fruitless trip.

One day an unhappy returning traveler overheard the young mans directions.
"Will this road take me to Strasbourg?"
"No. It will not.", he replied.
"But the signpost says it goes to Strasbourg."
"The signpost is wrong."

Angry, the traveler approached the young man.

"Vous cochon! Why you did not tell me I was going the wrong way??"
"You never asked", replied the pleased young man.
"Est merde embulante! What is the kind of man who lets people make mistakes and wasting their times on wrong turns?", sputtered the man.
"A good teacher", replied the man rising from his rest,
"A good teacher looking for his first good person who is willing to learn. Stay here and direct people to Strasbourg. This will let me finally return home."

Shocked, the traveler asked "Where is your home?"

"Strasbourg University."


The moral of this story is:
A Gnostic Atheist waits for people to catch up.
A Gnostic Theist builds a wall which never allows people to go past.

[Zarkov]

I've a good mind to give you some bad rep.

You're like the guy lying in the road.

[Tiwaking!]

I've a good mind to give you some bad rep.

You're like the guy lying in the road.

Enjoying the failures of others is a very human trait.

Relishing in the misery of all creation? Divine.

[Zarkov]

What's the meaning of life?

[Tiwaking!]

What's the meaning of life?

無常は物の哀れ

[varkk]

What's the meaning of life?

Cheese

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2590#comic

[SteddieEddie]

Wear more hats!

[Tiwaking!]

Poor religion.

So many contradictions.

No wonder it's got such a bad name.

If you think that this life has no life outside your immediate physical self...


3:53
"How could you say that!? Prayer brings comfort to so many people!"
"So do drugs."
So much win.
TheCivilizedAnarchy  2 weeks ago  27