Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Hannibal4life]

the Israelites were a Pharaonic dynasty called the Hyksos.

Hannibal, since you brought it up somewhere back there..... what is your view on Hell.

this is the most sensible/realistic view i can come up with..... "to be outside of Gods presence" could this be considered Hell and not the "Burn for eternity in pain with gnashing of teeth" that the bible tells us.

edit spelling

Hi Frog,

This thinking derives itself from either Nostic or similiar teaching, which is largely regarded as flawed teaching. The council of Nicea identified this as an heretical view. This council was made up in a period of history when there were several known heretics who came up with their own theories which did not rely on the basis of what the bible stated about this topic.


John, who was imprisoned on Patmos near the end of his life, recieved what is known as the book of Revelation in the bible (found at the very end). This accurately describes Hell, and what it is like. I see your view and have heard it before. On the surface it appears tangible, and realistic based on the idolic view of God as a kind loving compassionate God who would never do anything to cause pain to anyone.

The unfortunate truth is that many people have a view of God which actually rather biased, and in fact borders on idolic (in other words creating God to suit their own agenda, for instance - he would never send me to a place of torment... that would be mean and nasty and God's not like that...)

The sad reflection is that, when talking about God we Christians believe the authority on who he is and what he is like to be the Bible. This would obviously include the old testament which is derived from the jews.

And to further another post, the reason the old testament is included in the bible is because many Jews are awaiting the messiahg still. Jesus fulfilled the prophesy which shared about the messiah to the letter. In fact there is a time frame to which the messiah was going to arrive. Historically the only person born within that time frame was Jesus. Mohommed came 200+ years later.


In short i believe in the hell described in Revelation and through out the Gospels. I base this on the fact that Jesus' statements ring true to me in my everyday life, and since i have not found his claims to have grounds to disbelieve i can accept his claims on hell as authoritive.

[Hannibal4life]

Where does what you say XOR from what I said?

Care to provide a link to a reputable (non-christian) website that shows there were this many manuscripts, of which I assume you in fact mean fragments of manuscripts, as the idea of 12000 fully intact manuscripts is ridiculous.

Arnifix, the number of people outside the church who would really care about this is limited. I will do my best with the limited resources at my disposal, especially considering that your requirements are rather excessively limiting.

Can you explain XOR for me as well.

[Hannibal4life]

Yeah id like god to post a you tube video of a dirty boy molesting priest arriving at the gates of heaven and speaking to St Peter (it is St. Peter right?)

"i know i have sinned but i have repented, and prayed every day"....
"um... yeah i dont think so, fuk off"
"but please"
"let me think on that one.............................no bye"
*priest gets sent to hell

Im indicisive about whether there is a god or not, but what i am sure about is that if there is a god he is NOTHING like what human religeon lends us to believe. This dude is the all knowing wisest creator of the universe!!!  :rnr: , he is not gonna enforce sex before marriage, he is not gonna send a little singaporean child who got killed by a tsunami to hell because he isnt christian cause he has never even heard of God.

Good call about the Child here by the way +rep for you dudde.

There is a term called coming of age which basically means that a child under 13(?) is effectively blameless since a child of >13 yo is incapable of understanding the infinite consequences of life.

About priests and sexual abuse. The church has unfortunately had a bad history of late with regards to this. Significantly most offenders were trained at ST John of God seminary, which leads me to believe something needs to be investigated here. Since 1990 the church has become sophisticatedly aware of sexual predators seeking access to vulnerable members of our young generation. It has gone through a revamp of significant national proportions. I personally have spearheaded this in several churches. Here is the reality, which could be reinforced were anyone here to speak to a social worker, or (cringe) CYFS worker, dodgy buggers across the world will always seek out places where they can obtain access to kids and exploit that. No matter the level of protection people will always slip through. I cite the blacklist of teachers struck off the regitration list (refer NZTRB for details) for this very reason. The problem does not come from the church, rather these people - who actually do need help to engage in a respectable relationship with someone.

[Hannibal4life]

Where does what you say XOR from what I said?

Care to provide a link to a reputable (non-christian) website that shows there were this many manuscripts, of which I assume you in fact mean fragments of manuscripts, as the idea of 12000 fully intact manuscripts is ridiculous.

Sorry i was tired that night, here's what i missed. The accuracy of those manuscripts is rather significant. You mentioned the different languages its translated in and that there must be variances etc. This is true, as i studied French to Bursary level and understand significantly how translation works. If you aware of how translation works you will be aware that there are 2 types; literal and idiomatic. Literal is where you take every word and find an equivalent word from the second language and put that down.
eg
In english, "A blue pen"
In French, "Le Stylo bleu"

The literal translation of the french would be the pen blue (due to language structures used by french). Since i left school in 1999, please forgive me if i misspelt that.

An idiomatic would bring it to look like this: a blue pen.

The bible is present in many languages but the primary languages are Hebrew, Aramaic, and one other that i cant for the life of me remember. SInce some words have other substitutes for them, every bible is structured slightly differently. The meaning is always maintained but the words used in a sentence may vary. For instance i have a few bibles here at home in other translations. I will post one verse below so you can see what i mean.

King James version (the thus saith the lord version)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that who ever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life."

New International Version:
"For god so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The scholars have translated using substitute words yet the meaning is maintained.

Accuracy which. they have found scrolls dated 300ad which are 95% accurate to the current manuscripts which we have. the 5% flaws were obvious slights of pen etc, and easily distinguished.

[Hannibal4life]

When I die, if I end up in front of heaven being judged, despite being a "sinner" (for not believing in god) all my life, I can just say, "Awww yeah, you do exist. Sweet, cheers for all the shit aye!" and that's that?

PS. That bit about murdering peoples loved ones is fucked up dude. Forgiving somebody who brutally murders somebody is bizarre and in no way healthy.

Actually,

It is healthy. Modern counsellors call this acceptance, and it is a part of the gfrieving process. Contact Ministry of Health should you need credible non-christian proof. Their number is: 04 4962000

Alternatively call a counsellor, or social worker.

I'm not saying that the forgiving is easy, and the forgetting would never happen, but it is commonly accepted this is part of loss and grievance.

[Hannibal4life]

WHY!?

religious types spout "God is mysterious and his ways are not for man to know"

then they turn around and bleat and drool pathetically attempting to explain god, and what how why things work beyond life, that they are only imagining even exist.

You might as well explain the graviton deflector dish on star trek.

Arnifix, you're not going to get a rational explanation about his personal delusions on afterlife.

Black heart, ive given rational explanations. I think you guys need to step it up on the amount of personal attacks dished out. if you can't handle the debate don't resort to attacking us by saying we are irrational. There's nothing wrong with my rationale.

[Hannibal4life]

I call it your personal delusion because the more detailed the descriptions of how god thinks, the more religious people diverge from each others 'perception' making the concept even less acceptable.

There are thousands of christians who in very vague terms all agree 100% with each other but once you drill down to specifics and they will willingly tell you exactly what they think of god's plans who goes to heaven/hell explanations about how geography decides whose christian not whose good or bad. Every one of them will disagree with the other on some aspect of religion, making a mockery of an inerrant bible, and any thought of their religion being consolidated in its message and direction.

So unless god made a seperate message for each and every human, because they each have their own take on how it all comes together, then once again face met floor.

And another point to make is, some claim to be Christians. A defintion which is accepted for a person who is a  Christian is that they must be a follower of Christ, followers follow, and therefore must know what they are following. Many call themselves Christian cos they go to church. This isn't the case. many never read a bible regularly - how can u follow someone wqho dont know much about. All Christians agree on almost everything. The 5% where we maybe disagree is more on the hows not the why's.

[Hannibal4life]

well there goes equality for starters.

Not really as some people have a greater capacity to do stuff than others. Its relative to who we are as to what we are called to do.

[Hannibal4life]

Hey everyone,

A few posts back someone said that anyone who believed the bible was the inspired word of God would have to be a moron.
Quick question:
Which of these professions would require the highest degree of intelligence?
a) Builder
b) Electrician
c)  Mechanic
d) Doctor
e) Lawyer
f)  Politician (put it in more for a laugh but hey its a real option...)

[Hannibal4life]

Those who PM'ed me, thanks we're looking good on purchasing a property - thanks for the well wishes. However, im really drained after doing a whirlwind week of negotiations, Lawyers, agents, banks etc, so i'm taking a break from the forum here, and concentrating on other things like bf2142 etc.  If you post for me, please send me a PM as i check e-mail daily, and it provides me with a prompt if you reply or pm me. It may be a few days before i'm on again so if you dont hear from me you know why, and cant claim a hollow vicotry lol.

Enjoy the weekend fullas.

[(BHP)Clyock]

My word this thread has twisted and turned like a big twisty turny thing. The original question who would win science or religion?
Science has had the upper hand ever since the printing press came into being. With the press people no longer needed the church to instruct them in religion they were able to read it for themselves and decide how to interpret the text. It also allowed for the mass dissemenation of differing versions of the bible, diluting and fragmenting the role of a centralised religion. Since the printing press religion has gone from one or two main christian faiths to god knows how many now:jester:  . And they are all different in very nonreconcilable ways, worship on this day, don't eat that, dress this way etc etc.
Very much one up to science.
Then you have TV. If anything has stopped people from going to church it has to be Match of the Day. And dont get me started on Jerry Fallwell(?), TV raised him up to smash him down.
Two up to science.
Film. With the Da Vinci Code, film has done more to convince large numbers of donation giving Americans that they have been lied to for 100's of years. Causing them to keep thier tithes and buy SUV's instead.
We must be up to 3-0 to science by now.
Unless there are lights in the sky over Jerusalem soon i can't see anything but a downtrou
victory to science.
I hope Buhda has clean undies on!

[Tiwaking!]

No im just seeking clarrification from you, like i said, and man dude i'm gone for a day and you claim victory... lol, are you losing so bad??? Clarify your question and you'll see my reply relatively soon.

Oh and NB: Some of us Christians hear the same trick questions more than once, and know the traps people use to try to slow the debate down. Please be more inventive, there are easier verses and "apparent flaws" to attempt to exploit.

I didnt mean to make it sound like a trick question. Its not. Its loaded. Loaded means it's going to fall only one way but in the same way Christianity is so fractured, you have a choice in which way it can fall(and none of them are BAD ways either!)

In my opinion there is only one christianity: Catholicism. All other Christian denominations came from Catholicism. Although I would say Eastern Orthodox is probably closer to the original teachings, they too have become fragmented.

The defining of God and the Second covenenant forms the basis of ALL Christian denominations. Disputes over the nature of the trinity, the virgin birth and armageddon have all caused splits which turned into movements and then into Denominations.

Oh look I've answered my own question. Its not the answer I want, because I wanted it out of YOU. Now you've learnt nothing

[Simon_NZ]

Tiwaking...

[Tiwaking!]

My word this thread has twisted and turned like a big twisty turny thing.

An orange whirly thing in space? Orange, with this suit?

The original question who would win science or religion?
Science has had the upper hand ever since the printing press came into being. With the press people no longer needed the church to instruct them in religion they were able to read it for themselves and decide how to interpret the text. It also allowed for the mass dissemenation of differing versions of the bible, diluting and fragmenting the role of a centralised religion. Since the printing press religion has gone from one or two main christian faiths to god knows how many now:jester:  . And they are all different in very nonreconcilable ways, worship on this day, don't eat that, dress this way etc etc.

Not true. The only main differences are: Catholicism & Everyone else. Protestant churches CAN band together and help each other but it's unusual to see Catholics on a large scale(Other than NGO's) actively attend and celebrate Christianity with other denominations.

Film. With the Da Vinci Code, film has done more to convince large numbers of donation giving Americans that they have been lied to for 100's of years. Causing them to keep thier tithes and buy SUV's instead.

The Passion of the Christ: Worldwide: $611,899,420 - Production Budget: $30 million
The Da Vinci Code: Worldwide: $758,239,851 - Production Budget: $125 million

Pretty close battle I must say

[Tiwaking!]

Hey everyone,

A few posts back someone said that anyone who believed the bible was the inspired word of God would have to be a moron.
Quick question:
Which of these professions would require the highest degree of intelligence?
a) Builder
b) Electrician
c)  Mechanic
d) Doctor
e) Lawyer
f)  Politician (put it in more for a laugh but hey its a real option...)

Ouu this is a mean question. Its either Doctor or Lawyer

The main problem is the fact that different personality types skew the results. That is: A Green personality type who is an electrician would probably be very intelligent where's a Red type would just be in it for the helping people/making money.

Lawyer is sixty/fourty: Intelligence & Personality. A skilled debator can swing an argument just as much as an intelligent one.

I guess I'll have to go "Doctor". But dont you use this as an argument that the intelligence is most required of those people who wish to improve on God's Design! Because that is both a low blow and unbecomming

[Simon_NZ]

your a hard nerd tiwaking

[Tiwaking!]

WHY!?

religious types spout "God is mysterious and his ways are not for man to know"

then they turn around and bleat and drool pathetically attempting to explain god, and what how why things work beyond life, that they are only imagining even exist.

You might as well explain the graviton deflector dish on star trek.

Arnifix, you're not going to get a rational explanation about his personal delusions on afterlife.

The graviton deflector dish is part of the navigational array. During the development of warp travel it was realized that an object travelling at warp speeds would ultimately collide with objects and although not affected by relative speeds the interaction between the relative and non-relative travelling particles would result in instantaneous de-molecularization of both objects, in other words: Anhillation.

However: Due to the low-level field effect generated by both the warp engines and travelling speed a focal point was found which could focus these two forces to repel objects via the directing of gravitons(the ultimate particle which has yet to be found in RL). Thusly small objects will not collide with a space craft due to the deflector dish constantly emitting gravitons. This was also one of the key steps in the development of deflector shielding.

[Tiwaking!]

your a hard nerd tiwaking

Sorry. I just got back from breakfast(hot fudge!!)

That questionaire is both wrong and unfair. There is also a refutation of it in other thread, ironically also science vs religion(an evolution thread). If he continues like that, I'll bash him with the quote from that thread.

I've been too busy playing my Wii to have time to have a look in this thread so am working my way through it

[Tiwaking!]

First of all, I'm not trying to explain God, just explaining how I see things. It cracks me up how those of us here who believe in God get skewered for our beliefs AND get skewered for taking part in this discussion - like above, where you have had a go at me for simply being involved. What I believe may not line up with what you believe, so get over the whole "his personal delusions" bullshit. If you have a problem with what I say, focus on what I said. Don't just turn this into personal attacks man. And I don't just mean you, Black Heart, I mean all the nublets in here who have the "I'm right/God doesn't exist/Fuck off" attitude.

Simply put: Fundamentalist Christian attitudes have severely damaged the image of Christianity.

Hannibal has posted quite abit about Christian Theology, unfortunately: Fundamentalist Christian groups do the same thing, so to an uncaring observer: Hannibal is a Fundamentalist(blatantly not true)

This means of course that the supporters of religion in this thread are forced to stave off personal attacks and(much worse) are trying to defend the undefendable(Personal belief)

Simply put: Faith created religion. Science created the future. Faith + Science = Religious future? Highly unlikely Faith + Science seems to be killing religion!

[Tiwaking!]

I call it your personal delusion because the more detailed the descriptions of how god thinks, the more religious people diverge from each others 'perception' making the concept even less acceptable.

There are thousands of christians who in very vague terms all agree 100% with each other but once you drill down to specifics and they will willingly tell you exactly what they think of god's plans who goes to heaven/hell explanations about how geography decides whose christian not whose good or bad. Every one of them will disagree with the other on some aspect of religion, making a mockery of an inerrant bible, and any thought of their religion being consolidated in its message and direction.

So unless god made a seperate message for each and every human, because they each have their own take on how it all comes together, then once again face met floor.

This is unfair

Religion has moved away from dogmatic tradition due to mainly to: a) Education, b) Scientific Advancement and c) Democracy

As the populations exploded(And they DID explode, millions of people in decades) the number of dissenters increased. Democracy gave individuals personal rights, power and a true freedom of choice(Im talking about working Democracy, not the United States). People become more 'refined'(i.e fussy) and started taking only what they wanted from religion and threw away the rituals.

UNFORTUNATELY this has created an unusual situation: Denominations of Christians who are more or less the same, but arent taught the actual differences between them. Only the extremist groups like Baptist's or Seventh Day Adventists have well known features(baptising and saturday sabbath) whereas to ask someone what the difference between groups like Methodist, Anglican and Presbyterian are, you'd probably get a blank look.

[Tiwaking!]

Hi Frog,

This thinking derives itself from either Nostic or similiar teaching, which is largely regarded as flawed teaching. The council of Nicea identified this as an heretical view. This council was made up in a period of history when there were several known heretics who came up with their own theories which did not rely on the basis of what the bible stated about this topic.

(Note: That post is actually six paragraphs long and an interesting read)
Woah

I thought you didnt know your stuff but obviously I was WRONG. Still: The implications of the second covenant probably wont be fully explained until after you finish your degree. Your best bet would be: Ask a Rabbi

Also a tip: That is WAY too much information(not for me though, it was an interesting read)

[Tiwaking!]

Sorry i was tired that night, here's what i missed. The accuracy of those manuscripts is rather significant. You mentioned the different languages its translated in and that there must be variances etc.

Funny you mention this: Scholars of the Koran seek out Bedouin tribes since they're a living repository of a dead language which the Koran is written in. Language has changed more over the past 100 years than the previous 500. For example: The Japanese used in "The Seven Samurai(Shichinin no Samurai)" is different from modern day, French and English used in the 50's is different from today and even the QUEEN doesnt speak the Queens English anymore.

There's nothing wrong with my rationale.

Yes there is. You give other peoples intelligence too much credit

The 5% where we maybe disagree is more on the hows not the why's.

I would say divorce is a pretty big difference(Church of England)

Gah so annoying. Multi-quote isnt working and I've had to do this the old way :\

This thread should be coming to a halt soon, so I guess I should give people their scores

[BerG]

your a hard nerd tiwaking

The graviton deflector dish is part of the navigational array. During the development of warp travel it was realized that an object travelling at warp speeds would ultimately collide with objects and although not affected by relative speeds the interaction between the relative and non-relative travelling particles would result in instantaneous de-molecularization of both objects, in other words: Anhillation.

However: Due to the low-level field effect generated by both the warp engines and travelling speed a focal point was found which could focus these two forces to repel objects via the directing of gravitons(the ultimate particle which has yet to be found in RL). Thusly small objects will not collide with a space craft due to the deflector dish constantly emitting gravitons. This was also one of the key steps in the development of deflector shielding.

Sorry. I just got back from breakfast(hot fudge!!)

That questionaire is both wrong and unfair. There is also a refutation of it in other thread, ironically also science vs religion(an evolution thread). If he continues like that, I'll bash him with the quote from that thread.

I've been too busy playing my Wii to have time to have a look in this thread so am working my way through it

Simply put: Fundamentalist Christian attitudes have severely damaged the image of Christianity.

Hannibal has posted quite abit about Christian Theology, unfortunately: Fundamentalist Christian groups do the same thing, so to an uncaring observer: Hannibal is a Fundamentalist(blatantly not true)

This means of course that the supporters of religion in this thread are forced to stave off personal attacks and(much worse) are trying to defend the undefendable(Personal belief)

Simply put: Faith created religion. Science created the future. Faith + Science = Religious future? Highly unlikely Faith + Science seems to be killing religion!

This is unfair

Religion has moved away from dogmatic tradition due to mainly to: a) Education, b) Scientific Advancement and c) Democracy

As the populations exploded(And they DID explode, millions of people in decades) the number of dissenters increased. Democracy gave individuals personal rights, power and a true freedom of choice(Im talking about working Democracy, not the United States). People become more 'refined'(i.e fussy) and started taking only what they wanted from religion and threw away the rituals.

UNFORTUNATELY this has created an unusual situation: Denominations of Christians who are more or less the same, but arent taught the actual differences between them. Only the extremist groups like Baptist's or Seventh Day Adventists have well known features(baptising and saturday sabbath) whereas to ask someone what the difference between groups like Methodist, Anglican and Presbyterian are, you'd probably get a blank look.

(Note: That post is actually six paragraphs long and an interesting read)
Woah

I thought you didnt know your stuff but obviously I was WRONG. Still: The implications of the second covenant probably wont be fully explained until after you finish your degree. Your best bet would be: Ask a Rabbi

Also a tip: That is WAY too much information(not for me though, it was an interesting read)

Multi quote works fine wtf.

[Black Heart]

This is unfair

Religion has moved away from dogmatic tradition due to mainly to: a) Education, b) Scientific Advancement and c) Democracy

As the populations exploded(And they DID explode, millions of people in decades) the number of dissenters increased. Democracy gave individuals personal rights, power and a true freedom of choice(Im talking about working Democracy, not the United States). People become more 'refined'(i.e fussy) and started taking only what they wanted from religion and threw away the rituals.

UNFORTUNATELY this has created an unusual situation: Denominations of Christians who are more or less the same, but arent taught the actual differences between them. Only the extremist groups like Baptist's or Seventh Day Adventists have well known features(baptising and saturday sabbath) whereas to ask someone what the difference between groups like Methodist, Anglican and Presbyterian are, you'd probably get a blank look.

you've lost me there. You say my statement (which is my own observation) is unfair, then go on to explain why it's true.

I can also easily find people of the exact same denomination that wont share the exact same view of christianity.

@ hannibal If I attack christianity, its not a personal attack on you. I'm sure that you feel I am deluding myself that god does not exist. hence that would be my delusion. (From your perspective)

I feel christianity deserves to be attacked, its shown its intolerance and insecurities all too clearly (in the subject that this topic was started on)

[(BHP)Clyock]

Not true. The only main differences are: Catholicism & Everyone else. Protestant churches CAN band together and help each other but it's unusual to see Catholics on a large scale(Other than NGO's) actively attend and celebrate Christianity with other denominations.