Topic: Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

Offline Tiwaking!

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Quote from: TofuEater
Myth. Roosevelt was very keen to get involved, but he had trouble selling it to the general populace because of the large number of Americans who were descended from Germans and Italians.

It appears I have been a victim of the revisionists and you are right. Actually, that makes my case much worse. The American people would not endorse the sensible policy of their elected president!
Quote from: TofuEater
Was teh Vodnik getting serviced? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NZyZsU87ms

People should never put themselves on youtube playing DDR on easy. The singing was good though, for a laugh
Quote from: [TBAG] MrFiskIt
The earth is flat and is the centre of the universe. Everything rotates around us.

The church didnt actually teach that, because its completely wrong. Sailors knew the earth was round and the earth's circumference has already been roughly calculated
Quote from: Wikipedia
The modern misconception that people of the Middle Ages believed that the Earth was flat first entered the popular imagination in the nineteenth century, thanks largely to the publication of Washington Irving's fantasy The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus in 1828.

Also the idea of heliocentrism wasnt heretical. With Pope Urban VIII and the rise of the Jesuits in 1633, they adopted Tycho Brae's universal model exclusively.
Quote from: Wikipedia
Theologian and pastor Thomas Schirrmacher, however, has argued:
Contrary to legend, Galileo and the Copernican system were well regarded by church officials. Galileo was the victim of his own arrogance, the envy of his colleagues, and the politics of Pope Urban VIII. He was not accused of criticising the Bible, but disobeying a papal decree.


Anyway: Here is a fun link! Fundies say the darndest things!

Reply #650 Posted: January 19, 2007, 10:00:07 am
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Offline Tiwaking!

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Quote from: true
Religion isnt flawed as bad as most ppl currently think, its just been used in an unconstructive, negative way by certain ppl which has impacted badly on society in recent times.


....and ancient times....
The first mass killing of the Jews was carried out by the so-called People's Crusade, which attached itself to the army of knights and followed on behind them ... . They came largely from Flanders. [But] they proceeded down the Rhine, where there had been large Jewish settlements, ever since Roman times, the oldest Jewish settlements in Europe. And they were really destroyed by these hordes, who felt that as a necessary preliminary to the Second Coming, it was necessary to kill all Jews. This was not the official Church doctrine. The official doctrine was that all Jews must be converted to Christianity before the Second Coming. But one way of settling this matter was to kill them, and there would be no unconverted Jewish left. And that's what they did, in very horrible massacres ... .

So it didnt work then. It doesnt work now. How can anyone trust it will work in the future?

Religion is just COGNITIVE DISSIDENCE

Reply #651 Posted: January 19, 2007, 10:09:54 am
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Offline Dustow

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Quote from: Black Heart
no proof?
Noahs ark is not humanly possible to  maintain all the livestock, let alone collect every animal. theres nothing to suggest a boat that large was ever built outside of the bible.
It's also impossible for our weather to 'produce' rain its a constant cycle, while flooding obviously can occur its always localised, and the oceans CANNOT rise meters upon meters due to rain.

Mary- thats makes an gereat TUI ad.

Telescopes have revealed other planets / systems forming. theres nothing rational to suggest ours didn't form exactly the same way.

google > flat earth myth <, nobody sane ever believed the earth was flat.



Read the bible my freind... noah didn't take 2 of every animal.. he took 2 of every kind of animal.. ie: male and femal of dog, cat, retile etc... not 2 x lion, cheetah wolf dingo etc!!  One must also remember that 4000 years ago and about 2000 after creation, there wasn't the variety of animals/crossbreeding as in today, so there acually wouldn't have been that many... still alot but not as many as you would think.

In relation to the boat size, they believe they have found the ark on or in the vasinty of Mt ararat. They have found rivets, nails etc and the dimensions are exactly as in the bible.

And to give you another eg of a unbelieveable story in the bible being true... no one in their right mind could believe that the red sea could have parted so that the Million or so jews could cross it with the egyptions chasing...... Well they have discovered extensive eg's of chariets, human remains, horse remains and other artifacts in the middle of the red sea where the crossing occured..... Now we've shown/proved it did happen now you prove it didn't!!!

Reply #652 Posted: January 19, 2007, 10:22:56 am

Offline ccfc

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Click here

lol this is funny, is it some sort of religion? Seems pretty crazy. As for religion, it will be outdone by science eventually, religion gave us the answers for centuries while we were too stupid to do the hard yards and find out the truth through science.

Oh, and i AM jesus.

Reply #653 Posted: January 19, 2007, 10:33:18 am

Offline Arnifix

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Quote from: Dustow
Read the bible my freind... noah didn't take 2 of every animal.. he took 2 of every kind of animal.. ie: male and femal of dog, cat, retile etc... not 2 x lion, cheetah wolf dingo etc!!  One must also remember that 4000 years ago and about 2000 after creation, there wasn't the variety of animals/crossbreeding as in today, so there acually wouldn't have been that many... still alot but not as many as you would think.

In relation to the boat size, they believe they have found the ark on or in the vasinty of Mt ararat. They have found rivets, nails etc and the dimensions are exactly as in the bible.

And to give you another eg of a unbelieveable story in the bible being true... no one in their right mind could believe that the red sea could have parted so that the Million or so jews could cross it with the egyptions chasing...... Well they have discovered extensive eg's of chariets, human remains, horse remains and other artifacts in the middle of the red sea where the crossing occured..... Now we've shown/proved it did happen now you prove it didn't!!!

Boats. That's how that shit got there. Boats.

And you haven't shown or proved anything. You've given some simple explanations that could make some of the biblebullshit possible. But only possible, not proven in any way.

Reply #654 Posted: January 19, 2007, 10:46:04 am

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Offline dirtyape

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Quote from: Dustow
mmmm  what do you base that theory on??  You must have some evidence to back that claim up.


The fact that we are observing light from stars that are 1 billion light years from earth kinda suggests that the universe is a bit older than the literal creationists believe.

The bible was meant to be a moral guide to living a good life. Not as a reference to describe the universe. It really needs to be updated.

Reply #655 Posted: January 19, 2007, 10:49:27 am
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Offline Dustow

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Quote from: Arnifix
Boats. That's how that shit got there. Boats.

And you haven't shown or proved anything. You've given some simple explanations that could make some of the biblebullshit possible. But only possible, not proven in any way.



I don't think anything we say could convince you... not that I'm into convincing anyway...

Top usa archeologists have confirmed it's authenticity. I mean anythings possible.. a space ship could have gone back in time and brought the items back to the future to plant the evidence... I mean cm'on. I have shown you/refered you to phisical evidence to at least 2 different events.. anyone can sit there and make theories to how it got there but with out contradictory physical evidence, one must at least accept the possiblity that the events occured... lets all have an open mind.. and if you accept the "possibilty" of the events then you also have to accept the possibilty of a god and creation.... you can't accept one without the other.

Reply #656 Posted: January 19, 2007, 10:51:17 am

Offline Black Heart

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Quote from: Dustow
Read the bible my freind... noah didn't take 2 of every animal.. he took 2 of every kind of animal.. ie: male and femal of dog, cat, retile etc... not 2 x lion, cheetah wolf dingo etc!!  One must also remember that 4000 years ago and about 2000 after creation, there wasn't the variety of animals/crossbreeding as in today, so there acually wouldn't have been that many... still alot but not as many as you would think.

In relation to the boat size, they believe they have found the ark on or in the vasinty of Mt ararat. They have found rivets, nails etc and the dimensions are exactly as in the bible.

And to give you another eg of a unbelieveable story in the bible being true... no one in their right mind could believe that the red sea could have parted so that the Million or so jews could cross it with the egyptions chasing...... Well they have discovered extensive eg's of chariets, human remains, horse remains and other artifacts in the middle of the red sea where the crossing occured..... Now we've shown/proved it did happen now you prove it didn't!!!

did you even read what you type?
Firstly you left out insects, secondly heard of indigenous animals ? travelled to australia did he to get the marsupials? and then travelled back to drop them off... no, theres no biblical claim for that is there.

A) they haven't found jack shit. they thought they did made a doco, but it was completely inconclusive. all they found were rivets & nails, i'm sorry but how could you possibly deduce dimensions from a handful of rivets and nails?

B) red sea thats not proof, almost every army of that era travelled by sea and suffered losses at sea.

C) Jesus will return soon. SOON, 2000 years is well past soon by any standard. time proves the bible lies.

Reply #657 Posted: January 19, 2007, 10:52:06 am

Offline Dustow

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Quote from: Black Heart
did you even read what you type?
Firstly you left out insects, secondly heard of indigenous animals ? travelled to australia did he to get the marsupials? and then travelled back to drop them off... no, theres no biblical claim for that is there.

A) they haven't found jack shit. they thought they did made a doco, but it was completely inconclusive. all they found were rivets & nails, i'm sorry but how could you possibly deduce dimensions from a handful of rivets and nails?

B) red sea thats not proof, almost every army of that era travelled by sea and suffered losses at sea.

C) Jesus will return soon. SOON, 2000 years is well past soon by any standard. time proves the bible lies.


Accually they found wood fragments of the ark also that was consistent with the biblical story....  Yes they would have travelled by sea.... but not on a Chariot!!!! There are no other evidence that would suggest any other theory other than the one told in the bible... If they were carried by a ship across the sea, then they would have found evidence of the ship.... Also they discovered the chariots were from the dinisty of Ramisis.... Moses, brother and the ruling Phero of the time. As said above, Without contradictory evidence one must accept the POSSIBILTY that it happended as it is told.

I forgot insects... insects  do not have lungs to breath, they breath through their skin... they would have been comfortable enough ontop of water until the water subsided... ever been to a pond or creek... bugs every where... when you go fly fishing, you imitate a bug on water.

Reply #658 Posted: January 19, 2007, 10:58:29 am

Offline dirtyape

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i think there may well have been an ark, and a flood even, but i would say that the story was a bit over exagerrated to keep people interested. Not so exciting to say this bloke Noah, his wife and his live stock went on a boat because his valley got flooded.

Stories in the bible are just that - stories. To believe things verbatim... err... yeah... no comment...

Reply #659 Posted: January 19, 2007, 11:04:02 am
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Offline true

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By recent times I am refering to events, say, in the last few thousand years :)

Reply #660 Posted: January 19, 2007, 11:04:13 am
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Offline Tiwaking!

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Quote from: Dustow
Read the bible my freind

Let me clarify with an example. In Leviticus, "God" explains that male homosexuality is an abomination! I am not sure if this mean they roast over an open fire for the rest of eternity or if they have simply displeased God greatly and will suffer some other lower forms of torture for their transgressions. Either way, fundamentalist Christians love that part of the Bible (as do many non-fundamentalists unfortunately). I am going to give them this one for now. So, let's assume for the moment being that insane and grotesque idea is true.

In the same Leviticus, "God" says that anyone who eats shellfish -- shrimp, lobster, crabs -- shall also suffer eternal damnation. If they are in the sea and do not have fins or scales, eating them is ... an abomination! So, if gay guys are such a problem for society, then the evil shrimp-eaters must be just as big a problem, right? How come I don't hear that one talked about in the press so much? Because it shows how absolutely nuts it is to believe in religion.

And dont give me that line about "But Christs return institutes a new covenant with man which overrides the original from Sinai!" - That is BFS

This would mean that for some unknown reason God rejected his chosen people and branched out by allowing Gentiles to be converted? Does anyone else see the obvious and inherent problem in that, or am I going to have to do some explaining which annoys me to do and forces people reading to be put into Densa

Reply #661 Posted: January 19, 2007, 11:04:31 am
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Offline Dustow

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Quote from: dirtyape
i think there may well have been an ark, and a flood even, but i would say that the story was a bit over exagerrated to keep people interested. Not so exciting to say this bloke Noah, his wife and his live stock went on a boat because his valley got flooded.

Stories in the bible are just that - stories. To believe things verbatim... err... yeah... no comment...


Thank you ape.... at least one with an open mind.. I think that's all people ask for.. not neccessarly to believe in what we beleive but have an open mind and don't set aside/hide/squash any evidence if it doesn't conform to what you believe...+rep

Reply #662 Posted: January 19, 2007, 11:08:29 am

Offline Apostrophe Spacemonkey

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Quote from: '[TBAG
MrFiskIt']
Mary gave birth without having sex.


That's possible, however it's very unlikely, needs many rare mutations all to happen at the same time.

Quote
The earth is flat and is the centre of the universe. Everything rotates around us.


That wasn't a religious view, that was the scientific view of Greek philosophers hundreds of years BC. And by the first century it was generally acknowledged among the learned that the world was round.

They were always small groups that said it was still flat, and there still are today, but they have little to do with religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

And we are at the center of the 'known' universe, because we can only see the same distance in all directions, so the 'known universe forms a sphere around us with earth at the center.
I doubt the actully universe has a physical center, if it does, i'm pretty sure it would be impossible to find.

Reply #663 Posted: January 19, 2007, 11:08:55 am

Offline Simon_NZ

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once again

g36 v the hoard of fanatics without science

i win everytime

even with their superior numbers because they haven't discovered contraception the g36's superior build quality and and rate of fire ensures my victory

Reply #664 Posted: January 19, 2007, 11:22:11 am

Offline Apostrophe Spacemonkey

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Quote from: Dustow
In fact evolutionist's believe that we evolved from nothing.. ie the big bang started everything but originated from nothing.. The earth cooled after millions of years... it rained for another million and out of the rain that hit the rocks formed what they call the "soup" and out of the soup spawned cells (from water and rock) and out of that here we are... eventually...  Ithink it's much easier on the human brain to believe that someone made the earth... well that's what I think.


Not true, not all evolutionist's believe that we evolved from nothing, how life started is still unknown, people have only come up with theories, one of them being an organic 'soup' another one being that we were seeded by an asteroid from another planet. However evolution doesn't deal with the original of life, only what happened after.

Reply #665 Posted: January 19, 2007, 11:26:20 am

Offline true

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Quote from: ccfc
Click hereAs for religion, it will be outdone by science eventually, religion gave us the answers for centuries while we were too stupid to do the hard yards and find out the truth through science.


The thing is you cannot find all the answers with science because it cannot, at this current point in time (and prehaps will not ever) define human spirit and conciousness, which is ultimately the core of our being. Things like Quantum Mechanics and String Theory are only begining to touch on what ancient civilisations had known and practiced for eons.

Also there is the thing of spiritual practices being grouped together with religion which is unfortunate indead.

And as for centuries ago who are you to say we were stupid, unless you subscribe to the Patriarchal Roman Chatholic doctrine that there live lesser beings and intelligence is messured according to ability to commit a genocidal concensus world wide. Religion (used in the wrong way) has brought mass murder to the Earth, just as science used in the wrong way has. If things are to work out we must have a deeper understanding of ourselves in a spiritual sense first and formost, and then science can advance into more productive realms

gl hf

Reply #666 Posted: January 19, 2007, 11:32:59 am
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Offline Dustow

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Quote from: Spacemonkey
Not true, not all evolutionist's believe that we evolved from nothing, how life started is still unknown, people have only come up with theories, one of them being an organic 'soup' another one being that we were seeded by an asteroid from another planet. However evolution doesn't deal with the original of life, only what happened after.



But that's what they teach in the schools... The organic soup theory is being taut as fact even with many flaws...... From what I know, there is only 2 theories, Creation and the big bang.. Creation-god created the universe, Bigbang- The organic soup.. it's either one or the other, you can't be an evolutionist and believe in the creation theory.

Reply #667 Posted: January 19, 2007, 11:34:41 am

Offline Apostrophe Spacemonkey

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Quote from: Black Heart
no proof?
Noahs ark is not humanly possible to  maintain all the livestock, let alone collect every animal. theres nothing to suggest a boat that large was ever built outside of the bible.
It's also impossible for our weather to 'produce' rain its a constant cycle, while flooding obviously can occur its always localised, and the oceans CANNOT rise meters upon meters due to rain.


I guess this is a problem of people taking the bible literary, which I know many christens do.

This is my view on the Noah flood, in that time, people only knew of a very small part of the world, as the rest had not been explored yet, so to them, their entire world was only as far as they could see.

So therefore when the flood happened, he presumed the entire world was flooded, as as far as he could see, there was only water, so he would have assumed the entire world was flooded.
As for the ark, it wouldn't need to be that big, as it only had to carry the animals of that area, which wouldn't be that many.

Reply #668 Posted: January 19, 2007, 11:39:12 am

Offline Arnifix

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I have long stated that I don't argue that god doesn't exist. You can't argue that! However the bible can certainly not be used as legitimate proof of much.

And Dustow, once again your fundie idiocy gets in the way of logic. You CAN believe in god and believe in evolution. You can believe in god, and that god created the earth, literally, and still believe in evolution. If you had actually read up on what you're trying to argue about you'd know this.

Evolution and the big band are taught in schools because they're the accepted scientific theories. If the big bang was suddenly disproved, then you can bet they wouldn't stop teaching evolution.

Reply #669 Posted: January 19, 2007, 11:43:44 am

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Offline Dustow

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Quote from: Spacemonkey
I guess this is a problem of people taking the bible literary, which I know many christens do.

This is my view on the Noah flood, in that time, people only knew of a very small part of the world, as the rest had not been explored yet, so to them, their entire world was only as far as they could see.

So therefore when the flood happened, he presumed the entire world was flooded, as as far as he could see, there was only water, so he would have assumed the entire world was flooded.
As for the ark, it wouldn't need to be that big, as it only had to carry the animals of that area, which wouldn't be that many.


Nice theory.. but that doesn't explain how they found clam shells and other marine life on Mt everest.. Nor does it explain hundreds of other natural phenominum that is said to be caused by the flood....  Nice though at least you're thinking outside the square

Reply #670 Posted: January 19, 2007, 11:44:08 am

Offline Apostrophe Spacemonkey

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Quote from: Dustow
But that's what they teach in the schools... The organic soup theory is being taut as fact even with many flaws...... From what I know, there is only 2 theories, Creation and the big bang.. Creation-god created the universe, Bigbang- The organic soup.. it's either one or the other, you can't be an evolutionist and believe in the creation theory.


Why not? People should be able to believe whatever they want. Maybe God was eating some organic soup, and accidentally split some on the Earth, and evolution took off from there.

And there are far more then just two theories, there are hundreds, look them up.

Reply #671 Posted: January 19, 2007, 11:47:57 am

Offline Arnifix

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Quote from: Dustow
Nice theory.. but that doesn't explain how they found clam shells and other marine life on Mt everest.. Nor does it explain hundreds of other natural phenominum that is said to be caused by the flood....  Nice though at least you're thinking outside the square

A) It's not Spacemonkey's theory! I'm sure I and one or two others have said the EXACT SAME THING! It's featured frequently on tv shows about Noahs Flood.

B) Do you know how the Himalayas were formed? Quoting Wikipedia:

The Himalayas are among the youngest mountain ranges on the planet. According to the modern theory of plate tectonics, their formation is a result of a continental collision or orogeny along the convergent boundary between the Indo-Australian Plate and the Eurasian Plate. The collision began in the Upper Cretaceous period about 70 million years ago, when the north-moving Indo-Australian Plate, moving at about 15 cm/year, collided with the Eurasian Plate. By about 50 million years ago this fast moving Indo-Australian plate had completely closed the Tethys Ocean, whose existence has been determined by sedimentary rocks settled on the ocean floor and the volcanoes that fringed its edges. Since these sediments were light, they crumpled into mountain ranges rather than sinking to the floor. The Indo-Australian plate continues to be driven horizontally below the Tibetan plateau, which forces the plateau to move upwards. The Arakan Yoma highlands in Myanmar and the Andaman and Nicobar Islands in the Bay of Bengal were also formed as a result of this collision.

The Indo-Australian plate is still moving at 67 mm/year, and over the next 10 million years it will travel about 1,500 km into Asia. About 2 cm/year of the India-Asia convergence is absorbed by thrusting along the Himalaya southern front. This leads to the Himalayas rising by about 5 mm/year, making them geologically active. The movement of the Indian plate into the Asian plate also makes this region seismically active, leading to earthquakes from time to time.

GUESS WHAT! THAT MEANS THAT MT EVEREST... USED TO BE UNDER THE SEA! WITH THE CLAMS!

THE CLAAAAAAAAAAAAMS!

Reply #672 Posted: January 19, 2007, 11:49:36 am

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Offline Equity

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Quote from: Arnifix

And Dustow, once again your fundie idiocy gets in the way of logic. You CAN believe in god and believe in evolution. You can believe in god, and that god created the earth, literally, and still believe in evolution. If you had actually read up on what you're trying to argue about you'd know this.


i do, i believe that god created the world, scary not to, and part of his creation (his plan) was evolution.

maybe were still living in the 6th day

Reply #673 Posted: January 19, 2007, 11:49:47 am
"think c2w might be a little to hard core for my skills atm anyways"-Splatter

Offline Dustow

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Quote from: Arnifix
I have long stated that I don't argue that god doesn't exist. You can't argue that! However the bible can certainly not be used as legitimate proof of much.

And Dustow, once again your fundie idiocy gets in the way of logic. You CAN believe in god and believe in evolution. You can believe in god, and that god created the earth, literally, and still believe in evolution. If you had actually read up on what you're trying to argue about you'd know this.

Evolution and the big band are taught in schools because they're the accepted scientific theories. If the big bang was suddenly disproved, then you can bet they wouldn't stop teaching evolution.



Thanks mate.. but evolution has been disproven many many time.... but the scientist just come up with an alternative theories ie: the horse theory, the archeological time line+ many many more, I'll have to look up if you want more.

You speak of logic but how logical is the bigbang theory.. it is:

In the begining there was nothing... From nothing started somthing.. this something (no bigger than a full stop on a page)created enough energy to explode into the univers as we know it... Now the earth cooled over millions of years then it rained for a million more, from the rain water interacting with the rocky earth ceated the "organic soup" from that we eventually came about ... by accident. Now that is the offial big bang theory.. look it up. Now I can't see logic in that.. But you are entitled to believe what you want as do I... Thanks anyway man

Reply #674 Posted: January 19, 2007, 11:51:40 am