Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[TofuEater]

they have disproven evolution.. it also answers how the marsupial ended up in austrailia...

It explains nothing of the sort. If marsupials were able to travel to Australia because of the ice-age then they would have traveled to other lands as well in which case there would be an abundance of them in the fossil record all round the world, not just in one land.

[KiLL3r]

I hate Americans.

Laugh at them here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCkYfYa8ePI&eurl=

rofl at how many sides a triangle have?


idiot 1: 4?

idiot 2: none or is it 1?

[DDM]

If people believe god has been around forever, before everything we know.. why is it so hard to flip the coin and believe the same of the universe?

P.S We'd be far more advanced (i say advanced, not better off) if science was allowed to grow freely without religion getting in the way. i.e stem cell research/human cloning.

[Arnifix]

heh i think your taking the piss. im not religious but i have to think theres something more for me to be able comprehend/make sense of the world around us etc etc. im not as knowlegable on the subject as many of you here, and it definately makes for good reading on the account. i find it hard to just ignore evolution or say its a myth so i try to mix it all in one haha as best i can....that was a summary of what i reckon is true.

dustov your posts have made for good reading, dont give up, i like it how this thread hasnt turned into a flame or a huge dum argument. people are giving good posts......

I wasn't. I don't mind people believing in a god as long as they keep it to themselves/don't affect others. I cannot, however, stand for religious fundies who believe the earth was made in a day and will spout this to people who don't know any better.

On this note, I recently found two pamphlets sitting beside the toilet at work, aimed at children, that ask them to take Jesus into their heart, to be their "special friend". I lol'd then vomited.

[Arnifix]

Oh really? Heard of mount Ararat in Turkey? People have climded it and have found what they believe to be "the ark".

There are also people who believe the moon landings are fake. I'm sure they have evidence.

[Tiwaking!]

I can't fatherm how something accidently came out of nothing???

God came out of nothing, or was he always there?
If God was always there, what did he do?
If God came out of nothing, what was before?
If there wasnt time without God, what was there before time?
If God is impossible to understand, why bother trying to let us have insight into possible motives?
If God is real, why bother allowing questions at all?
If a perfect universe is an empty universe with only God, why fill it with anything else?
Does God actually fill the universe, or is the places where omnipotence does not reach of greater importance?
If God is love, then does that make hell a loveless place without God's presence?
If God's presence and therefore love is not there, does that make a place outside of God's domain?
Did God create himself?

[Equity]

I wasn't. I don't mind people believing in a god as long as they keep it to themselves/don't affect others. I cannot, however, stand for religious fundies who believe the earth was made in a day and will spout this to people who don't know any better.

On this note, I recently found two pamphlets sitting beside the toilet at work, aimed at children, that ask them to take Jesus into their heart, to be their "special friend". I lol'd then vomited.

kinda ignore that part of it., i meant 6th day as in days lasting like millions of years or whatever like has been said earlier. wasnt saying i take bible for serious or anything, tbh i havent read it as im not very religious.

[[TBAG] MrFiskIt]

who's winning?

[Tiwaking!]

P.S We'd be far more advanced (i say advanced, not better off) if science was allowed to grow freely without religion getting in the way. i.e stem cell research/human cloning.

We have a place for that: Its called Singapore

Its not religion's fault that science is so hampered. Its ignorance, the most common element in the universe.

Oh and compound interest too. That will kill us all

Oh and also Economics

And Politics

and Nationalism

and time wasted on forum boards

[KiLL3r]

Ok, here is my proof that God does not exist. Here are some qualifications to that statement: right now, I am only talking about the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god. I don't believe in other gods either, but this one is just so damn easy to disprove. Another qualification: Though I did come up with this by myself, I know that I'm not the first person to do so. Please don't flame me just because its not 'original', remember that this is my opinion.

The conception of God that most people around the world have simply cannot exist. First, let me define what most people think of as God: An all-powerful being, who created the universe, who is all-good. Now, you would think that a universe created by such a being would be a wonderful place to live in. Of course, as we all know, this is not the case. Innocent children get raped by pedophiles. Criminal CEO's rob people of billions and get away with it. People in third world countries work their asses off and yet they live horrible lives. If God is both willing and capable of stopping these perversions of justice, then why doesnt he? The answer, of course, is that he doesn't exist.

No religious person has EVER given me a satisfactory answer to this dilemma. Here are some of the crappy arguments they have made:

1) God does not cause evil, the Devil does.
OK, this one is perhaps the stupidest one. If you believe the Devil is capable of subverting God's will and causing evil, then you believe that the Devil is as powerful as God, and you shouldn't call yourself a monotheist. Plus, if the Devil can do whatever he wishes despite God's will, then God is not all powerful. Therefore this argument doesn't fly,

2) God is all good, evil comes from man's free choice.
I don't buy this one either. God created everything (according to the religious people). Therefore, he must have created both humans and free will. Now why would he create free will if he knew some men would choose evil? You might say that evil people turn away from God, so he has no responsibility towards them. Ok, fine. But what about the innocent, good people that are harmed by the evil people? Doesnt God care? Of course not, because he doesnt exist.

3) Evil exists in the world for reasons we don't and CAN'T understand. God's reasons are unknowable because we are mere puny humans.
This is probably the best reason, but I still don't buy it. According to this statement, you are supposed to just accept evil because you trust that god has a reason for it. Now, I simply can't accept this. Why would God give us intelligence if we weren't meant to use it? If God simply intended for us to be herded around like sheep, why didn't he make us sheep? The answer, of course, is that God did not make us, because he does not exist.

-stolen from somewhere, but who cares cus god aint gonna punish me

[b00sta]

If people believe god has been around forever, before everything we know.. why is it so hard to flip the coin and believe the same of the universe?

P.S We'd be far more advanced (i say advanced, not better off) if science was allowed to grow freely without religion getting in the way. i.e stem cell research/human cloning.

Last time I checked religion had not been the one stopping stem cell research or human cloning it was public murality which is very different from religion.

Eacvh and every person is wired with a concience which alerts us to what is good and what is bad/evil. This is nutured through community environment amongst other factors like upbringing.

The majority of the human race believe that stem cell research and cloning is wrong hence the objection, opening a can of worms so to speak. This hard wired concience  isn't religion its your personal values and dictates how you live your life, don't blame that on religon blame that on whatever you believe created us!

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

2) God is all good, evil comes from man's free choice.
I don't buy this one either. God created everything (according to the religious people). Therefore, he must have created both humans and free will. Now why would he create free will if he knew some men would choose evil? You might say that evil people turn away from God, so he has no responsibility towards them. Ok, fine. But what about the innocent, good people that are harmed by the evil people? Doesnt God care? Of course not, because he doesnt exist.

Maybe Gods definition of being good is different from ours, when you look at the bigger picture, on the whole the human civilization has done more good things then bad. Maybe the reason God let humans have free will is so we will learn from other peoples mistakes.

And if God did create free will, the whole point of free will is that we a free to decide what we want to do, if God limited our choices so we could only perform good deeds, then it would no longer be free will.

And those statements don't prove that God doesn't exist, they would only prove that he isn't 'good' as defined by human understanding.

I for one think this universe is a wonderful place to live in.

[Arnifix]

-stolen from somewhere, but who cares cus god aint gonna punish me

Nah, but I will. Take it like a man.

[Boob Johnson]

If people believe god has been around forever, before everything we know.. why is it so hard to flip the coin and believe the same of the universe?

Its not hard, you either believe it or not. You cant believe in both??  :sly:

P.S We'd be far more advanced (i say advanced, not better off) if science was allowed to grow freely without religion getting in the way. i.e stem cell research/human cloning.

Society would be a better place if all the non christians just let christians get on with life without persecution (ever stop to think about that?). We'd be far more advanced (yes, & better off).


Modern society is slowly moving away from christian values. Years ago it was "shock horror" to read about ANY murder in NZ, nowadays we have 15 yr kids doing it on a reasonably regular basis. We have a general break down of society, more and more gays "coming out of the closet" & now aloud to get married.

We have come from pretty conservative roots & yes some things did need to change but I think the pengilum has swumg a bit too far into the liberal side now. You only need to look at the youth of today compared to 40 years ago to see that.




Last lil rant  :bounce:


Our wonderful leadership of this country seem to forget this country was founded on christian values/principles & has taken alot of steps to take it out of schools, yet only a short time ago Helen Clarks government decided in their infinite wisdom to spend $120,000 (or close to) on a Muslim pray room <-------- wtf??? Yeah lets say no to even talking about christianity in schools but its ok to spend tax payers money on a different religion??? Please dont tell me im alone in thinking that stinks.




Ok last one: Since this topic is on science vs religion.


Most have probably heard it a 100 times but I dont think it really sinks in with alot of poeple or they dont fully comprehend what it actually means when its said that religion and christianity are two totally different things.


And lastly, science actually proves the existance of God (weather you call God Muhumeed or Jesus or whatever) but it does prove it. If you ever get the chance to see an "appoligetic speaker" then I highly adivse you go and listen. I have and its amazing, they look at the whole subject purely from a scientific point of view, all things discussed are tangable & therefore alot easier to grasp than God & creation etc etc.


Oh and just so no one asks, they dont actually appoligies for anything  :chuckle:

[Arnifix]

Our wonderful leadership of this country seem to forget this country was founded on christian values/principles & has taken alot of steps to take it out of schools, yet only a short time ago Helen Clarks government decided in their infinite wisdom to spend $120,000 (or close to) on a Muslim pray room <-------- wtf??? Yeah lets say no to even talking about christianity in schools but its ok to spend tax payers money on a different religion??? Please dont tell me im alone in thinking that stinks.

Of course it stinks. I'm personally opposed to my tax dollars being spent on any religion. Need I remind you that "religious education" still occurs in schools today, and I highly doubt they teach the kids about Islam or Buddhism.

And perhaps this country was "founded on christian values/principles" but times change. A decline in religious belief, while an excellent scare tactic to get people back to church, is no solution. People need to take charge and accept blame, rather than putting it off. And please do not use "liberal" as an alternative for politically correct. I consider myself very liberal, and I'm certainly not PC.

Anyway, New Zealand can be the balance for America's lunacy, as they're turning into a right-wing christian fundamentalist run country.

Bah, boob, science cannot "prove" god exists. There is no legitimate empirical evidence. However, science cannot disprove god either.

[DDM]

Society would be a better place if all the non christians just let christians get on with life without persecution (ever stop to think about that?). We'd be far more advanced (yes, & better off).

I don't have a problem with letting christians get on with life.. as long as they arent trying to shove their way of life down my throat by doorknocking and flooding late night tv.

[DaCollector]

Where are their bones?

If they rot away, then no fossils are left. Fossils are formed when an animal gets quickly covered in a layer of silt, sometimes deposited by a flood. The animal is then preserved and becomes fossilsed.

You have answered ur own question.

500 years ago, white man finally made it to the americas.
They also managed to make the trip around africa.
They had no idea how to longtitude.
Don't talk to me about reams of info when you are daft enough to go to Wikipedia
to get your info.
The bible has nothing in it at all about white man being greater than the black or yellow man so maybe you really do need to read it before commenting.
Marsupials are found all around the earth.

I can't be bothered reading anymore

Everyones an expert.....

[Dustow]

Ok, here is my proof that God does not exist. Here are some qualifications to that statement: right now, I am only talking about the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god. I don't believe in other gods either, but this one is just so damn easy to disprove. Another qualification: Though I did come up with this by myself, I know that I'm not the first person to do so. Please don't flame me just because its not 'original', remember that this is my opinion.

The conception of God that most people around the world have simply cannot exist. First, let me define what most people think of as God: An all-powerful being, who created the universe, who is all-good. Now, you would think that a universe created by such a being would be a wonderful place to live in. Of course, as we all know, this is not the case. Innocent children get raped by pedophiles. Criminal CEO's rob people of billions and get away with it. People in third world countries work their asses off and yet they live horrible lives. If God is both willing and capable of stopping these perversions of justice, then why doesnt he? The answer, of course, is that he doesn't exist.

No religious person has EVER given me a satisfactory answer to this dilemma. Here are some of the crappy arguments they have made:

1) God does not cause evil, the Devil does.
OK, this one is perhaps the stupidest one. If you believe the Devil is capable of subverting God's will and causing evil, then you believe that the Devil is as powerful as God, and you shouldn't call yourself a monotheist. Plus, if the Devil can do whatever he wishes despite God's will, then God is not all powerful. Therefore this argument doesn't fly,

2) God is all good, evil comes from man's free choice.
I don't buy this one either. God created everything (according to the religious people). Therefore, he must have created both humans and free will. Now why would he create free will if he knew some men would choose evil? You might say that evil people turn away from God, so he has no responsibility towards them. Ok, fine. But what about the innocent, good people that are harmed by the evil people? Doesnt God care? Of course not, because he doesnt exist.

3) Evil exists in the world for reasons we don't and CAN'T understand. God's reasons are unknowable because we are mere puny humans.
This is probably the best reason, but I still don't buy it. According to this statement, you are supposed to just accept evil because you trust that god has a reason for it. Now, I simply can't accept this. Why would God give us intelligence if we weren't meant to use it? If God simply intended for us to be herded around like sheep, why didn't he make us sheep? The answer, of course, is that God did not make us, because he does not exist.

-stolen from somewhere, but who cares cus god aint gonna punish me

Thanks Kill3r.. Very insightfull and the fact that you took the time to write all that means you have deeply thought about it and I respect that...  If I may, I'll try and answer you questions/statements as best I can.. I am not a scholah (you can tell by my spelling) I do however research different topics and form my own mind.

According to the bible (which I believe) the earth was a wonderful and perfect place created some 6000 years ago. this of course I mean the garden of eden where god walked and talked to man and where their was no pain or evil as you have alequently stated... God did however give us freewill to love and worship whom ever we believe. He of course is hoping we choose him. If he didn't give us a free will the nthe love we show towards him would be a waste of time.. for eg.. I the presedent of the world decree that all must love me or die.... Can I truely believe believe the people love me ..NO. Some time after the creation, man choose to ignore gods directions and eat from the tree (we all know the story)  from that point on... sin entered the earth and seperated us from god...

From then on any evil that exists, we as sinners must take responcibilty. Yes good people get hurt and bad things happen to good people all the time but that doesn't mean god doesn't exist.. you see without god, there is no good or evil... there is no absolute rights or wrongs.. we are all part of the animal kingdom and we can kill rape steal do what ever we like... That of course is not the case.. we have evil but there is a consequense for evil.....

Moving on, yes there is a separation between us and God... but 2000 years ago, he sent his only son (yes Jesus) so that he can breidge the gap and we can know god more intimately..

Yes life sux for some reason but the fact that you acknowlegdethere is evil.. then you must acknowledge there is good.. without god there is no good.

I know this won't help or make sence and I'm sure there will be a barage of people saying that what I say is crap.. but that's what I beleive..

[ccfc]

.

[Arnifix]

500 years ago, white man finally made it to the americas.

Wrong. The Norse settled in America in the begining of the 10th century.

Don't talk to me about reams of info when you are daft enough to go to Wikipedia to get your info.

Why shouldn't I talk to you about reams of info? You're ignoring the reams of info that's available in every library and on ever interweb that detail the extinction of dinosaurs millions, not hundreds, of years ago. Referencing Wikipedia is far easier in an online format, as opposed to directing you to a page in an encyclopedia you obviously won't have, as it will be full of heathen blasphemy!

Besides, the majority of Wikipedia articles are directly referencing, if not almost exact copies of encyclopedia articles. The error ratio for Wiki vs EB is 4:3 and Wikipedia has a lower errors per word ratio than EB. So I think I'll continue to reference it, thanks all the same.

The bible has nothing in it at all about white man being greater than the black or yellow man so maybe you really do need to read it before commenting.

I'd be very suprised if this were true. And even if I'm wrong, suck it up. Look at all the fuckups you've made.

[Arnifix]

this of course I mean the garden of eden where god walked and talked to man and where their was no pain

At this point in time, man was fully formed yes? And he felt no pain?

[Dustow]

At this point in time, man was fully formed yes? And he felt no pain?

As far as I can see, there was no pain.. Pain is an indication that there is something wrong.. ie our nervous systems telling us that there is something wrong... We were perfect.. there was no disease or anythihng like that... so to answer you question ...no...  and yes we were fully formed but I feel like you are setting me up for something so lets have it...lol

[Arnifix]

As far as I can see, there was no pain.. Pain is an indication that there is something wrong.. ie our nervous systems telling us that there is something wrong... We were perfect.. there was no disease or anythihng like that... so to answer you question ...no...  and yes we were fully formed but I feel like you are setting me up for something so lets have it...lol

100% correct. So despite the fact that humans were fully formed, we were simply unable to feel pain? Specifically pain? Because the nervous system doesn't tend to discriminate. And then, after original sin, oh no, pain and death and shit.

[DaCollector]

Oh come on, a failed settlement and no mapping doesn't mean squat.
Hell, some believe the chinese settled  america/south americas/australia and nz and africa too....

Detailing the dinosaurs extinction, oh right, another THEORY!!
Because they have no idea when the dinosaurs went extinct and for what reason.

And i'm quite willing to look up any relevant info in a reputable  publication if you can find any that state their theories are now proven but mention wiki as a reference, then expect someone to have a giggle at ur expense.

[Dustow]

100% correct. So despite the fact that humans were fully formed, we were simply unable to feel pain? Specifically pain? Because the nervous system doesn't tend to discriminate. And then, after original sin, oh no, pain and death and shit.

I knew it!!lol

Now yes we were fully formed and I would only be guessing (I'm happy to adn=mit it) that the nervoouse system needs something to interprut what pain is.. that's where the brain comes in.. the brain deciphers the pain and lets us know...perhaps that part was not functioning..... or alternatively... I can't beleive that if adam had kicked a rock as hard as he could he wouldn't feel it.. I'm guessing the pain that it relates to is disease and pain caused by external elements like virusa etc... again alternativly... only to give you the whole picture.. the bible referes to eve and her child birth pain after sin as greatly increase... does that mean there was some form of pain or pressure to begin with.. possibly.. like I said I wasn't there.    Now death... No there was no death before sin...even after sin, the first few generations lived to be 800-900 years old. It wasn't until after the flood where life expectansy lowered dramatically... I can give you reasons why this is but I could be typing for ages.

So to recap.. before sin we had a perfect body.. no deformaties etc... after sin had entered the world out bodies slowly degraded and yes eventually die..   Well the bible does say, "the wages of sin is death"!!!  lol