Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Black Heart]

God didn't create disease though did he... although he has been known to actually cure people of cancer.

doesn't the bible say god created all life? diseases and such are alive.

Benny Hinn has been known to cure people of cancer. its just they die later, of cancer. (and being poorer)

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

Easter was a pagan fertility holiday, christmas was a solstice holiday? christians simply hijacked them because they were too lame to make there own. Also marriage was around before christians.

They weren't hijacked, they were just festivals that happened around the same time, they are not the same festivals.

[Black Heart]

proof? Cause I disagree.

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

Christmas or Christmas Day is an annual holiday that marks the birth of Jesus of Nazareth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas

Easter, also known as Pascha (Greek Πάσχα: Passover), the Feast of the Resurrection, the Sunday of the Resurrection, or Resurrection Day, is the most important religious feast of the Christian liturgical year, observed between late March and late April (early April to early May in Eastern Christianity). It celebrates the resurrection of Jesus, which his followers believe occurred on the third day after his death by crucifixion some time in the period AD 27 to 33 (see Good Friday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter

Now where is your proof?


People may celebrate different things on Christmas day, but officially it is a Christian holiday.

And whatever way you look at it, it's still a religious holiday, same for Easter.

[Black Heart]

I was asking for proof they weren't hijacked. Not what they currently are.

But you're right they were always spiritual, does pagan qualify as a religion?

my proof

December 25th was not selected because it was the birth of Christ or because it was even near it. It was selected because it coincided with the idolatrous pagan festival Saturnalia

from http://www.thercg.org/books/ttooc.html
or http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm

And for lollage http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract1.html
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t020.html

[ThaFleastyler]

While I can't verify that rabbits were around the cross at the Crucifixion or that a jolly red man was in the barn at Jesus' birth, I always thought that December 25th became it because it was the best estimate. As for Easter, its celebrated on the first weekend after the equinox at the end of the northern winter or something ... not sure exactly, but that was estimated to be when Christ was crucified, and thus became the way to figure out when easter is (which is why the date is different each year).

Not 100% on any of this - just my understanding. Given that these estimates would have been made by human beings, any parallel with pagan celebrations could have been purposeful on the part of the decision makers back in the day, just as much as they could be total coincidences.

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

They coincided with another festival, doesn't mean it's has anything to do with it.

Anyway, I wouldn't trust your sources, The restored Church of God and a Judaism website, lol.

[Black Heart]

google saturnalia there's plenty of references. I thought I was being clever using christian websites as references. I find it funny they're considered to be flakey.

Beside rather than simply not trust them, can you disprove them?

wiki seems to think its Sol invictus rather than Saturnalia, either way hijacked.

[ThaFleastyler]

google saturnalia there's plenty of references. I thought I was being clever using christian websites as references. I find it funny they're considered to be flakey.

How could they be considered anything BUT flakey?!

Seriously, I don't even bother going to a lot of Christian websites, simply because the beliefs vacillate so wildly from one to the next. Like, one believes in tithing (giving 10% to the church) and another doesn't. One believes in using electric guitars at church, another doesn't. One believes in using modern worship, another doesn't. One believes that creationism is correct, another leaves the door open. And many more examples.

There are so many points of contention and differences in opinion, its almost impossible to join a church! I love my church, because we have most things in common, not everything. I disagree with some things that go on, but the same is true of any situation.

I hope you understand what I'm saying, because it seems weird to me reading it back.

[Hannibal4life]

O RLY? PARDON!

Easter = Not originally a Christian festival.

Christmas = Not originally a Christian festival.

Hanukkah = Not ever a Christian festival.

Please reset religion's score to zero.

Christ mass = christmas = 1 (originally dec 25 was chosen as the date to celebrate Jesus' birth as the roman empire held a pagan festival on the same day.

Easter is a recognition of the event in which Jesus died and then rose three days later. The egg was a pagan symbol that represented new life, and hence why it was adopted to represent the event surrounding Easter.

And i never said Hannukkah was a Christian festival actually. My point remains: Public holidays established as a result of "religion" remains 4 as does score. -1 for limited "scientific" counter arguement though.

[Black Heart]

How could they be considered anything BUT flakey?!

Seriously, I don't even bother going to a lot of Christian websites, simply because the beliefs vacillate so wildly from one to the next. Like, one believes in tithing (giving 10% to the church) and another doesn't. One believes in using electric guitars at church, another doesn't. One believes in using modern worship, another doesn't. One believes that creationism is correct, another leaves the door open. And many more examples.

There are so many points of contention and differences in opinion, its almost impossible to join a church! I love my church, because we have most things in common, not everything. I disagree with some things that go on, but the same is true of any situation.

I hope you understand what I'm saying, because it seems weird to me reading it back.

perfect!

So why does anyone listen to ANY of them? Why should they have any say about what the grand canyon national park can and can't tell people?

[Hannibal4life]

doesn't the bible say god created all life? diseases and such are alive.

Benny Hinn has been known to cure people of cancer. its just they die later, of cancer. (and being poorer)

Black,

Personally having gone to one of the said guys crusades i don't think he has much cred within churches anyway. In fact most reports i've had from Pastors convey a lot of mistrust with this guy.

Cancer is one of these things that we all know affect people around the world. I know people who are not simply in remission of the cancer, but no longer have the cancer. And i have physically seen my wife (who'se damaged fat pad in her knee) was healed in answer to prayer.

[Hannibal4life]

proof? Cause I disagree.

If you disagree contact a classics professor at your local university. Maybe try cambridge if you dont find their answer satisfactory, or oxford, oh no wait maybe princeton, or yale, or harvard. You know the really credible ones.

[Black Heart]

you're aware of the (AFAIK) unexplained placebo effect ?

Not so long ago a group of people needed knee surgery some were given the operation some were simply 'scarred' similar numbers of each group were 'healed'

unexplained =! miracle

[Hannibal4life]

google saturnalia there's plenty of references. I thought I was being clever using christian websites as references. I find it funny they're considered to be flakey.

Beside rather than simply not trust them, can you disprove them?

wiki seems to think its Sol invictus rather than Saturnalia, either way hijacked.

It was sol invictus. Festival of the sun. It was chosen because like most peope when they accept Christ know, giving up an old habit is extremely difficult. The date was deliberately chosen to coincide with this festival to make it easier for people who had accepted Christ to pursue him actively. This is a common and acceptable thing. In 2006, Christians hold "Light" parties around Halloween, a time which is known to bring an increased leevl of spirituality. For instance, witches are known to perform sacrificial magic during this time.

[ThaFleastyler]

perfect!

So why does anyone listen to ANY of them? Why should they have any say about what the grand canyon national park can and can't tell people?

Well, they shouldn't more than any other group of people. Remember church groups are just groups of people. If you take away a church group or a religious groups freedom of speech, you have to take it from everyone. Whats the difference between a religious group protesting the Grand Canyon and, say - PETA protesting the manufacture of fur clothing? Aside from the groups involved, and the subject, absolutely nothing.

People just get antsy because the people are religious, thats all. But they are still free people.

[Hannibal4life]

How could they be considered anything BUT flakey?!

Seriously, I don't even bother going to a lot of Christian websites, simply because the beliefs vacillate so wildly from one to the next. Like, one believes in tithing (giving 10% to the church) and another doesn't. One believes in using electric guitars at church, another doesn't. One believes in using modern worship, another doesn't. One believes that creationism is correct, another leaves the door open. And many more examples.

There are so many points of contention and differences in opinion, its almost impossible to join a church! I love my church, because we have most things in common, not everything. I disagree with some things that go on, but the same is true of any situation.

I hope you understand what I'm saying, because it seems weird to me reading it back.

Interestingly, one would have to agree. But my point is the reformed church of Christ has a rather dodgy sound to it. I prefer to find my info frrom a site which has a sustainable level of credibility such as the Uni's etc. I use Christian websites from time to time, but mostly i don't bother because of a general lack from these sites in proving either scientific backing, or biblical backing. The issue of tithing does occasionally differ from church to church but the denom's i work with believe what is said in the new testiment, "Everyone should give what he has decided in his heart to give. Not reluctantly or under compulsion."
The reason there are some differences on a few things is where we interpret things differntly. As far as musical differences, eg Modern band worship vs an organ is largely to do with the congregation and what they like to hear, not due to the denom. This links to whether the church is a "charismatic" style, or what is commonly referred to as "High" or traditional church. Theere is a spread of each of these churches within all denom's

[Black Heart]

the thing is the people being denied is EVERYONE, but its not speech, its knowledge.

the church is protesting knowledge, its the modern equivalent of book burning.

[Hannibal4life]

you're aware of the (AFAIK) unexplained placebo effect ?

Not so long ago a group of people needed knee surgery some were given the operation some were simply 'scarred' similar numbers of each group were 'healed'

unexplained =! miracle

Yeah, i'm familiar with it, also familiar with what 2 seperate MRI scans revealed.
I assure you, i wouldnt make a statement unless i had significant evidence for my claim.

[ThaFleastyler]

the thing is the people being denied is EVERYONE, but its not speech, its knowledge.

the church is protesting knowledge, its the modern equivalent of book burning.

Not quite that dramatic - remember, book burning by the Nazis was an enforcement of opinion. Protesting, like what religious groups are doing, is merely a statement of opinion. There is such a thing as freedom of speech mate.

[Black Heart]

It's pretty damn ironic you're going on about freedom of speech BUT thats the very thing the religious crowd has taken away from the park, they aren't allowed to tell people how old the canyon is!!

And you're calling it a foul against religion??!

[ThaFleastyler]

The park thing may or may not be right, I don't know enough to say.
Either way its a case of perspective - you feel the non-religious perspective is correct, the religious group felt they were right. The people in charge of those decisions made the call.

[Black Heart]

so where did freedom of speech go ?

[ThaFleastyler]

You tell me - you're the one trying to take it from religious groups.

Look, religious groups have as much right to protest things as anyone does. The fact that Grand Canyon tour guides can't give the commonly accepted age of the canyon isn't because a religious group complained (although that was the event that started it). The responsibility for that is on whoever is in charge of making that decision. If those people had ignored the religious group, we wouldn't be having this discussion, even though the religious group still would've complained.

Perhaps the real culprit here is political correctness?

[ccfc]

How does religion explain dinosaurs?

Science will always win.