Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Tiwaking!]

I dont usually outright bash the religious, but this one takes the cake in this thread.

Tiwaking, stop saying stupid stuff.

O RLY?!!? Lets have a look through your bounty font of religious reasoning....

Sounds more like JW's. That's not how my faith works - or anyone elses in my church.

Actually the idea that earth is a proving ground for Gods Plan and Will is FUNDAMENTAL CHRISTIAN IDEAOLOGY. You dont believe it? Then straight to hell for you! The Rapture is a well documented Christian religious FACT. You cant avoid it JUST because YOUR church and YOUR faith doesnt believe it. Oh wait, have you just ignored a CRITICAL Christian belief? You have, havent you?

In fact, this idea is one of the founding doctrines for Seventh Day Adventists and a major theological part of Presbyterian, Anglican, Catholic, Calvinist, Methodist, Lutheran, etc Churches. But your church and your faith are greater because you choose to ignore parts of the bible and claim to be greater?

SUCH ARROGANCE BOGGLES THE MIND!

The reason God made us is so he could be with us. He gave us free will by offering us a choice we stuffed it up with the help of a lying snake. We became unholy because disobedience is no holy.

I think you better read your bible again to find the examples of holy disobediance. Im not going to tell you where they are, because I doubt you'd look anyway.

God being perfect can't be around this unholyness - it hurts him or something. Old testament describes the rules that people had to follow to maintain holiness and to rectify their sins. That is where the misconception comes from that you have to be perfect to be a Christian. Thankfully the story doesn't stop there. God sent Jesus to be the scapegoat. He lived perfect on behalf of all humanity then took the sins of th world on his shoulders as the perfect sacrifice. Crazy huh. He did this because he knew we could not live perfectly but he wanted the original goal.

Oh bullshit! 'God cant be around unholyness'? Do you realize how stupid that sounds and is?

If you have actually STUDIED Rabbinical texts with regards to Deuteronomy and the books of Hebrew Law then you will find that the Law's were Sensible FIRST and Religious SECOND. For example: Pork is a forbidden food. Why?

Pigs can harbour human-compatible diseases due to their similar biological structure. Pork is therefore a high-risk food if not properly prepared. In addition to this: Pigs will eat human meat. If *you* eat human meat, you go to hell. If you eat a pig which has eaten human meat then you have committed cannibalisim by-proxy.

That is how it is a GRACE based faith - not performance

Nice how you manage to smooth over the fact that all babies go to hell. What was that?

All babies go to hell

Why? Because in Christianity, including your own out-of-the-box Kellogs cereal brand of Christianity: Everyone is born evil and redemption is only possible by the Grace of God. Therefore when you start off life as a foetus, you are automatically condemned to hell by God. And dont go bleating on about that bullshit "But Jesus loved all those little children and because he said that, they dont go to hell!"

Catholic Priests loved a whole lot of little children too and they arent going to hell either!

Edit:

Isn't this religion vs Science - doesn't that make religion fair game

Yeah Science has kind of stomped religion to dust in this thread so I've switched to just outright bashing Religion thanks to posts by IHC candidates.

[frog.]

the modern day church is the same as the church of old. they just wrap it up in different wrapping and chuck in a few lollies.

Hardly!

The message is different and the method's are different. Its not a different wrapper, its just more lollies.

Dont believe me? Gay Priests for Anglicans and Presbyterians anyone?

No longer a heresy for women to wear mens clothing?

the core is the same, the skin has changed to suit the time.

the message and methods are different but they all point and lead to one place.

or am i looking at it wrong? maybe i am.

Yes you are looking at it wrong. Sorry frog
Greater explanation will be given upon request

though i do think i am looking at it right i request your view.

the church was, is and always will be for one thing.

[Arnifix]

Sounds more like JW's. That's not how my faith works - or anyone elses in my church. The reason God made us is so he could be with us. He gave us free will by offering us a choice we stuffed it up with the help of a lying snake. We became unholy because disobedience is no holy. God being perfect can't be around this unholyness - it hurts him or something. Old testament describes the rules that people had to follow to maintain holiness and to rectify their sins. That is where the misconception comes from that you have to be perfect to be a Christian. Thankfully the story doesn't stop there. God sent Jesus to be the scapegoat. He lived perfect on behalf of all humanity then took the sins of th world on his shoulders as the perfect sacrifice. Crazy huh. He did this because he knew we could not live perfectly but he wanted the original goal. That is how it is a GRACE based faith - not performance. That is what nick247 was talking about if I understand correctly. Are you listening Arnifix? Christians are not perfect.....just forgiven. He wanted to hang out with us. So the rules are simple. If you accept/believe that Jesus died on your behalf freeing you from the consequence of sin (eternal separation from God - Hell) then you will inherit eternal life - heaven. That is why there is a new testament. A new covalent. Its the new contract - but only one way. He has extended a permenant offer to humanity in hope that people will choose to come back to Him. So arni - now you know a little bit more about 'conventional Christian beliefs. Before I end my message for tonight.....could everybody close thier eyes and bow their heads...Kidding haha.

First up, stop using plural personal pronouns. Everybody should, but mostly you. God had nothing to do with my creation, or the creation of a lot of other people in this forum. He did not give us free will. We did not become unholy. Get my point? If you're allowed to "correct" me on "conventional Christian beliefs", an undefined substance, I will certainly fucking correct you on English, a language based around easily understood rules.

Second, I address your definition of "conventional Christian beliefs". 1,063,737 New Zealanders identified themselves as being Anglican, Catholic NFD, Roman Catholic or Catholic NEC in the 2006 Census. This gives these groups the majority amongst Christian beliefs in New Zealand. Over 1 billion Catholics exist in the world in general, and combined with the approximately 100 million Anglicans, they will also be very close to having a majority amongst Christians worldwide.

What do these groups have in common? Catholicism and Anglicanism both strictly state that followers must not commit sins in order to get into heaven. So, to sum up, the majority of Christians, in New Zealand and the world, must both repent for their prior sins and refrain from sinful acts or they will not go to heaven.

Once again, you state that:

If you accept/believe that Jesus died on your behalf freeing you from the consequence of sin (eternal separation from God - Hell) then you will inherit eternal life - heaven.

THIS IS WRONG. The majority, and therefore, conventional segment of Christianity DO NOT BELIEVE THIS.

Also, please note that I have only included the major Christian denominations here. It is entirely possible that many other Christian groups that do not use sola fide as the sole entry requirement for heaven, and I simply do not know this, so cannot include them in my figures.

[Arnifix]

though i do think i am looking at it right i request your view.

the church was, is and always will be for one thing.

A way to control and govern people? What? WHAT IS YOUR OPINION! TELL US AND EXPOSE YOURSELF TO MOCKERY!

[ThaFleastyler]

Isn't this religion vs Science - doesn't that make religion fair game

Yes, this is "religion vs science", and religion is therefore fair game - but yourself and others seem to be making this an attack on God. Churches/Religion and God are different things, that is my point.

For example, to say that God is a bad person because churches/religions demand money is wrong, because the church/religion is demanding money, not God. The Bible is a book shared and/or acknowledged by many religions, but God is the same God.

Also, from the start, this thread has only been an attack on Christianity and the Bible, not "religion". Nowhere has anyone argued with the beliefs of buddhism or islam or baha'i or scientology. Every single post has been centred around Christianity.

[ThaFleastyler]

Yeah Science has kind of stomped religion to dust in this thread so I've switched to just outright bashing Religion thanks to posts by IHC candidates.

If thats true, why am I still as strong a believer in God as I was at the start?
And don't say its because I'm an IHC candidate.

[krasher]

What do these groups have in common? Catholicism and Anglicanism both strictly state that followers must not commit sins in order to get into heaven. So, to sum up, the majority of Christians, in New Zealand and the world, must both repent for their prior sins and refrain from sinful acts or they will not go to heaven.

Where do you get this info? I know it is fairly common thinking, but I am not sure about majority. I am also pretty sure it is not sound theology. How much time have you spent leaning about different churches from the inside? Go be a teacher if you want to correct peoples grammar.

Tiwaking, stop saying stupid stuff.

Some of the attitudes that hang around this thread are disgusting. There is little respect or tolerance. If that is the type of person you become like by not having God in your life then I will stick with what I have.

[Arnifix]

If thats true, why am I still as strong a believer in God as I was at the start?
And don't say its because I'm an IHC candidate.

Because we cannot disprove God's existance, certainly not to the extent that you would require. We cannot behead him and nail his head to the wall as a trophy, and therefore there is always the possibility that he exists.

[frog.]

If thats true, why am I still as strong a believer in God as I was at the start?
And don't say its because I'm an IHC candidate.

faith.

A way to control and govern people? What? WHAT IS YOUR OPINION! TELL US AND EXPOSE YOURSELF TO MOCKERY!

sif mockery. AS IF MOCKERY!

[Simon_NZ]

But without god there would be no religion.

The two are intrinsically linked.

As I posted before - there are examples of genocide in the bible, resulting from gods orders.

The fact remains that the bible and all of christianity is just a melting pot of stories that people take what they want from it.

[Black Heart]

metaphorically...
cold is like god.
snow is like religion.
flakes are like religious followers. they are all different in their view of what god is in some aspect, yet they always lay claim to being millions of them, despite no two are the same.

yes the flakes pun was intended, i'm just that clever.

[Arnifix]

Where do you get this info? I know it is fairly common thinking, but I am not sure about majority. I am also pretty sure it is not sound theology. How much time have you spent leaning about different churches from the inside? Go be a teacher if you want to correct peoples grammar.

Wikipedia, for general information, the Standford Philosophy Encyclopedia to confirm and for more in depth information outside the scope of Wikipedia, Statistics New Zealand for NZ statistics and Adherents for approximate world statistics.

Why do I need to spend time learning about different churches from the inside. I can learn plenty about them without having to waste my Sunday.

Go be a teacher if you want to correct peoples grammar.

What am I training to be? A teacher? WHY YES! In English Literature, no less. And also only 8 hours of exams away from being a NZSB qualified speech teacher too. And I wasn't correcting your grammar simply to be an asshole as I normally do, but because your use of English was insulting.

sif mockery. AS IF MOCKERY!

On what topic do you want to be mocked today?

As I posted before - there are examples of genocide in the bible, resulting from gods orders.

First to post image. Win.

[Arnifix]

sif mockery. AS IF MOCKERY!

On what topic do you want to be mocked today?

As I posted before - there are examples of genocide in the bible, resulting from gods orders.

First to post image. Win.

[ThaFleastyler]

Because we cannot disprove God's existance, certainly not to the extent that you would require. We cannot behead him and nail his head to the wall as a trophy, and therefore there is always the possibility that he exists.

So then science hasn't won (and certainly hasn't trampled religion to dust).

But without god there would be no religion.

The two are intrinsically linked.

Thats true, but opinions put forward by religions are not Gods direct opinion; it is an opinion promoted due to the religions leaders' beliefs that it is what Gods opinion might be if he had one. Religion is run by man, based on God, not run by God. Attacking religion is not the same thing as attacking God.

Conversely, if you felt ripped off by God, would you attack a religion? And if you would, which religion do you choose to attack? It works the same the other way. Nowhere in the Bible does it say "form a religion, then plant flash churches and demand 10% as a tithe just to be a member, then start a political party and kick up a massive stink about everything" - thats just one religions interpretation of Gods word.

[Arnifix]

So then science hasn't won (and certainly hasn't trampled religion to dust).

I believe it was you who said not to confuse believing in god with believing in a religion. Religions generally cannot stand up to a scientifically conducted study. Not sure how trampled most religions are in these threads, but they must be pretty flat by now.

[Tiwaking!]

though i do think i am looking at it right i request your view.

the church was, is and always will be for one thing.

A way to control and govern people? What? WHAT IS YOUR OPINION! TELL US AND EXPOSE YOURSELF TO MOCKERY!

Down Arnifix!

To say that Core beliefs have remained the same while their method's have changed is abit .....hypocritical, at BEST. If I said "Religions have changed to reflect more relevant times", what exactly does that sound like to you?

Buddhism in Japan is a good example. Given the choice between being slaughtered or acknowledging the native Shinto religion as paramount, the monks were quick to agree to certain concessions(various Bodhsativas and the like). Out of this sprang Zen Buddhism which is somewhat closer to Orthodox Buddhism, but on a much more personal and individual basis.

What was the point of all this discussion? To remain ALIVE the Church will sacrifice anything for its continued survival, INCLUDING that of what you would call its 'Core Beliefs'. If half the world decided(and probably will one day) to reject the Trinity of the Godhead, does that mean its no-longer a 'core belief'? What about all the ideas and ideals that surround this doctrine? Baptising your children is to stop them from going to hell, but quite alot of Churches do not practise batptising. Does that mean Baptising is not a core belief? Wasnt Jesus an advocate of baptisment(Yeah yeah, baptise in fire and spirit blah blah)

There are no more European religious wars because Atheists ultimately won. Apathy kills religion faster than Chuck Norris and one hundred ninjas.

Also, from the start, this thread has only been an attack on Christianity and the Bible, not "religion". Nowhere has anyone argued with the beliefs of buddhism or islam or baha'i or scientology. Every single post has been centred around Christianity.

Thats because Christianity is a major religion in our secular country. Also I think some of the ideas from "The Great Evolution, Religion and everything inbetween" thread kind of spilled over into this one. Also I think people just like to pick on Christians for some reason. I blame America

If thats true, why am I still as strong a believer in God as I was at the start?
And don't say its because I'm an IHC candidate.

Um. Because you're the only sane person in the world who believes in God? You said it yourself you know!

Tiwaking, stop saying stupid stuff.

With the encroachment of Islam into European nations, Atheists and Christians have been banding together to protect the rights that both sides have fought so hard for but would be lost to a religion which would abuse those same rights to their own ends, that is, to end all those rights.

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

But without god there would be no religion.

The two are intrinsically linked.

Not true, there are many religions which don't believe in God or a god.

The only requirement of a religion is a set of beliefs, it is not necessary to believe in a supreme deity.

[Arnifix]

Down Arnifix!

With the encroachment of Islam into European nations, Atheists and Christians have been banding together to protect the rights that both sides have fought so hard for but would be lost to a religion which would abuse those same rights to their own ends, that is, to end all those rights.

Woof.

And Islam ain't all bad. Those head scarfs can be kinda sexy. Ok, maybe not. I'm sure something about the religion is worthwhile, but I can't be arsed reading about it right now. So much to do! Like sleep.

[Tiwaking!]

Because we cannot disprove God's existance, certainly not to the extent that you would require. We cannot behead him and nail his head to the wall as a trophy, and therefore there is always the possibility that he exists.

....until God is proven to exist, therefore would exist outside the need for our need to believe in God. So then our need to believe in God would be irrelevant. Ergo: No free will

metaphorically...
cold is like god.
snow is like religion.
flakes are like religious followers. they are all different in their view of what god is in some aspect, yet they always lay claim to being millions of them, despite no two are the same.

yes the flakes pun was intended, i'm just that clever.

Kellogs Corn Flakes! Come in all variety of Religious flavours!

What am I training to be? A teacher? WHY YES! In English Literature, no less. And also only 8 hours of exams away from being a NZSB qualified speech teacher too. And I wasn't correcting your grammar simply to be an asshole as I normally do, but because your use of English was insulting.
On what topic do you want to be mocked today?

My girlfriend is trained in speech therapy. I amuse her with my G4m3r sp33k

Conversely, if you felt ripped off by God, would you attack a religion?

To prevent the spread of the virus-like, harmful ideological meme its best to use a good herbicide. Facts and figures sometimes just dont cut it and a whole new reformat has to be instigated

[Arnifix]

My girlfriend is trained in speech therapy. I amuse her with my G4m3r sp33k

Speech teacher != speech therapist.

Completely different.

[Bell]

Religion and God are different things and I'm tired of repeating this fact.
A religion is a way for man to control the way people see God. It is totally different from what God actually is, or indeed what God envisioned the church to be like.

No they are the same thing man has created god in his mind to help keep him from going crazy asking Why they exist, how they got there in the first place and what happens when they die.
Saying oh some super being thing made us and when we die we get to go hang with him was a simple solution especially in times when magic was believed and not much about the world/universe was known.

And as it turned out also a great opportunity  to get people do things you want them to.
Brilliant scheme really.

[Tiwaking!]

Woof.

And Islam ain't all bad. Those head scarfs can be kinda sexy. Ok, maybe not. I'm sure something about the religion is worthwhile, but I can't be arsed reading about it right now. So much to do! Like sleep.

Islam is incredibly, incredibly bad

I dont really want to go into minute detail about just how bad it is, but it really is bad. The nice moderate Muslims you meet here in New Zealand are *not* proper Muslims and would definitely be murdered in the streets of their home towns if they were found out.

If you need a start about how bad Islam is, just read up about passages relating to the elimination of the WHOLE Jewish(i.e Israeli) race and how even the rocks will cry out to the devout Muslim that there is a Jew hiding behind it.

[Tiwaking!]

No they are the same thing man has created god in his mind to help keep him from going crazy asking Why they exist, how they got there in the first place and what happens when they die.

Belief in belief is self-justification and therefore evidence in God. God is an intentional object created to fufill our need to believe

Saying oh some super being thing made us and when we die we get to go hang with him was a simple solution especially in times when magic was believed and not much about the world/universe was known.

Occams Razor

[private_hell]

i dont know whether this has been posted and i cant be bothered looking for it but the bible is said to God's word right - but it was written down by men - does anyone think that some errors may have been made transcribing it because men are imperfect? also as it is reprinted that more errors may have crept in?

like a computer program - good ideas but when coded bugs and mistakes appear. sometimes these bugs sit there doing nothing for thousands of program executions then suddenly it changes the program in one execution. then this modified program continues to run for another thousand executions and a different bug appears.

[Hopeless]

No they are the same thing man has created god in his mind to help keep him from going crazy asking Why they exist, how they got there in the first place and what happens when they die.
Saying oh some super being thing made us and when we die we get to go hang with him was a simple solution especially in times when magic was believed and not much about the world/universe was known.

And as it turned out also a great opportunity  to get people do things you want them to.
Brilliant scheme really.

it was all a form of control back in the days when there was no significant policing force, they just simply stated these are the words of god, don't steal, kill, commit adultery blah blah blah, otherwie you will go straight to hell. the poor ignorant bastards were jus like ahhh not hell.