Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Black Heart]

we did believe the Earth was flat  :rolleyes:

if you check that statement out you'll find it is infact a myth created in the 1600s or 1700's nobody in gallileo's or colombus's time (the usual reference) thought the world was flat.

Churches were however burning people for suggesting the earth wasn't the centre of the universe (ie it went around the sun) good old catholics, but they are the most violent & largest bunch of any religion as far as I'm aware.

[Verrt]

There's a problem with your statment Spacemonkey
it is based on various "facts" for it to be correct

Our brain is no more than a complex computer, I'll accept that
then you say it's impossible for a computer to be self aware
so it's not our brain that makes us self aware

the whole statement relys on the "fact" that computers can never be self aware
this I can't accept

when you are born you are not aware of you own existence
it is something everyone figures out as they grow
if you spend any time with a baby (most likley your own) you can watch them figure it out

the process runs something like this
Using light wave receptors I can percieve things
I look forward I can see my computer screen
I look to my right I can see my computer and printer
I look down, there's the keyboard
there is something on it it moves when I want to type
I look at this thing, but activating certain impulses in my mind I can make it move
I can make this thing do what ever I want, how is that
I can't make the computer screen do things
there must be a difference between them
I can feel anything I make this thing touch
there is another one of these things, what happens if I touch them together
I can feel both of them I can feel each one as an object and I can feel each as a part of me
these are my hands
why dosn't the desk feel like that?
there must be a difference
If I follow my hands up I can see it goes all the way and is attached to my eyes
If I follow the desk along it is never attached
hmm, so if things that are joined to me I can move and things that arn't attached I can't move then there is a difference
I must end at the edge of my body, outside that is everything else
I am, I have a physical presence in this world.


This is the most basic of self awareness, every human goes through this or a similar process at some point in their life
as do some animals, Chimpanzees have done it, as have other apes and monkeys
this process is sped up by giving the animal a mirror
when they have figured out that they are the thing in the mirror and that they control the movements
that is when they have got the most basic idea of self awareness
cats have been known to do this, but it is rare, generaly they get bored or run in fear before they figure it out

This thought process is compleatly logical, and contains nothing more than basic "If this, Then This" ideas
A computer could figure this out
It is nothing spiritual, it is compleatly logical
If it was spiritual no doubt we would have it from birth

[pukeko]

if you check that statement out you'll find it is infact a myth created in the 1600s or 1700's nobody in gallileo's or colombus's time (the usual reference) thought the world was flat.

Churches were however burning people for suggesting the earth wasn't the centre of the universe (ie it went around the sun) good old catholics, but they are the most violent & largest bunch of any religion as far as I'm aware.

I'm sure someone believed/believes the Earth is flat  :huh:

http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

[Growler]

if you could prove there was a god thou, like beyond a doubt, you as 1 person had totally 100% conclusive proof that there was a god (whatever religion as i dont give a damn)

what would you do? do you share the proof, to shatter the hundreds of other religions out there, and to make all the unbelievers shit themselves and start being goody-to-shoes/ or evil cos they want to go to hell.

this is a really tough question, and really, i dont know how anyone could ever do it. are you selfish for keeping it to your self, or selfish that you want to ruin all the other religious beliefs other than what you found out is true?

If god came to me, with a sigened "GOD" baseball card, i would put it in a draw and never let anyone see it.

[deamora]

[. i hate mormons though, bastards keep trying to come around to my house until i called the police.[/QUOTE]


  believe me - put a pentagram door knocker on your front door and you'll never see them again

[sacredpossum]

[. i hate mormons though, bastards keep trying to come around to my house until i called the police.

  believe me - put a pentagram door knocker on your front door and you'll never see them again[/QUOTE]

NOT true

when one came to my door and saw my pentagram he wouldn't go away

[pukeko]

believe me - put a pentagram door knocker on your front door and you'll never see them again

NOT true

when one came to my door and saw my pentagram he wouldn't go away

Probably thought you needed some saving..  :bigglasse

Yes, if I had proof of a God, I would tell everyone.

[Xt1ncT]

what would you do? do you share the proof, to shatter the hundreds of other religions out there, and to make all the unbelievers shit themselves and start being goody-to-shoes/ or evil cos they want to go to hell.

this is a really tough question, and really, i dont know how anyone could ever do it. are you selfish for keeping it to your self, or selfish that you want to ruin all the other religious beliefs other than what you found out is true?

YES THEY WOULD TELL ALL....!!!

This is the thing, all religions think they are correct and in respect are selfish. So you can be damned sure they would make sure everyone knows that they were right and all the others were wrong.

Religion in itself is a selfish thing.

[sacredpossum]

Probably thought you needed some saving..  :bigglasse

Yes, if I had proof of a God, I would tell everyone.

hehe well i told him that his religion SUCKED cos he needed to go knocking on doors to get people to join

[Growler]

i meant what would YOU do XT, not what they would do, i mean you as a person.

[Xt1ncT]

i meant what would YOU do XT, not what they would do, i mean you as a person.

But I have no wish to prove there is a god. i don't believe there is one so it makes no difference to me.

I answered on behalf of the religions out there that would jump at the chance to prove that they were right all along.

Although you'll probably find that *most* religion's gods are actually the same entity.

[Growler]

ok, let me rephrase the question.

John is a catholic priest, he goes home one night, walks in the door, and sitting at his table is vishnu having 6 cups of coffee (gotta do something with all those arms)

Vinshu then describes/exlains everything, god bla bla bla

you now have the very information, if you choose to use it, to discredit everything you have ever believed in, in a religious sense, and every other religion to go with it but hindu.

You are John, what do you do? you can do nohting, and keep the information to yourself, or you can share the information to the world, and see what happens.

[Xt1ncT]

Being a religious dude, he would share the info. No doubt about it as far as I'm concerned.

Now if he were a monsigneur, or the pope he probably wouldn't..!!!!

[Growler]

YOU are john, what would YOU do???

not what you think he would do, sheesh i wish poms would stop drinking just enough to be able to read properly

[laurasaur]

I would argue the other way around, what if we're right - sucks to be you as there will be no heaven.....whereas if I'm wrong ie evolution is wrong,there will be a heaven and I *may* go there, if not I'll be nice and warm down in hell.

Dude, how can you say Sucks to be me if your right. If you're right, I WILL BE DEAD AND HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE of anything, and therefore seriously not care. So how can it suck to be me? Im not gonna be embarrassed, cos hey im dead anyway. If im right, it is going to suck to be you, spending the rest of eternity in hell.. hell is nothing like what you see on tv by the way

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

Actually it's a lot more than a complex computer, which invalidates your point. Computers are inanimate objects with no thought patterns other than those which we program it to have. All AI is prgrammed so has limits. We  know next to nothing about the workings of the human brain so how can you be sure it can't have an awareness.

IMO it does have an awareness and is more than capable of having one.

Despite what we know about the brain, it is still limited to the physical universe, anything that happens in the brain has to obey the physical laws of nature, having a awareness defies those laws, and thus can not be part of our brain, it has to be something from beyond our universe. Most religions believe this to be the soul, the connection between our physicals bodies and whatever’s beyond.

[laurasaur]

if you could prove there was a god thou, like beyond a doubt, you as 1 person had totally 100% conclusive proof that there was a god (whatever religion as i dont give a damn)

what would you do? do you share the proof, to shatter the hundreds of other religions out there, and to make all the unbelievers shit themselves and start being goody-to-shoes/ or evil cos they want to go to hell.

this is a really tough question, and really, i dont know how anyone could ever do it. are you selfish for keeping it to your self, or selfish that you want to ruin all the other religious beliefs other than what you found out is true?

If god came to me, with a sigened "GOD" baseball card, i would put it in a draw and never let anyone see it.

of course i would tell everyone.. why the hell would you not? that makes you one fucked up selfish person if you dont, as u can sure as "hell" count on going to hell after keeping it a secret lol

[Growler]

hell is nothing like what you see on tv by the way

hell is like a pub, with nothing but flat warm beer on tap, and 100 gorgeous woman, that all have penises and want to do it to you for evere and ever.

thats right aint it laurasaur?

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

hell is like a pub, with nothing but flat warm beer on tap, and 100 gorgeous woman, that all have penises and want to do it to you for evere and ever.

omg thats horrible

I'd rather be burnt alive and poked with pitchforks... (wait a mintue, thats almost the same)

[Growler]

of course i would tell everyone.. why the hell would you not? that makes you one fucked up selfish person if you dont, as u can sure as "hell" count on going to hell after keeping it a secret lol

so the religion i just spent my life preaching about is wrong, everything i have ever told to anyone is a lie, and when i release this information, there would be a GREAT chance that every religion would go into complete denial, or even worse, try to ruin the so called "real" religion.

so does 1 person being selfish, in keeping the "truth" to himself, and not ruining EVERY religion bar one, including his own. Or is he being slefish in ruining everyones beliefs and ideas, bar one religion.

Think about the share scale of this, all the non-believers, have to now believe, or fight to prove its not.

really the only people not affected are the atheists.

I have no religious bone in my body, maybe thats why i see it differently, but i see that if info like that was released, that the biggest, and probably most violent war the world has ever seen would start, and the worst thing is it would be mate against mate, not country vs counrty, so the war would have no boundries.

[Xt1ncT]

YOU are john, what would YOU do???

not what you think he would do, sheesh i wish poms would stop drinking just enough to be able to read properly

dude - it would never be me, you can't make that assumption cos I am not religious so it doesn't equate with any of my belief systems, so I can't answer from that point of view.

Only from mine. If it was me, and someone proved to me beyond any doubt whatsoever, then yes I would tell people. It would be quite funny to rock up to the Vatican and go "Pope dude, you're wrong, and so are all the other billion catholics".  LOL

[Xt1ncT]

I get where Growler's coming from, and IMO it would depend on what religion the guy was from - you said Catholic, then it's most likely that he wouldn't say a damn thing. At least not without consulting with the powers that be, and they would want him to keep his trap shut. Same with a Mullah, but somehow I think that a Buddha bloke would tell all...!!!!

[Xt1ncT]

Despite what we know about the brain, it is still limited to the physical universe, anything that happens in the brain has to obey the physical laws of nature, having a awareness defies those laws, and thus can not be part of our brain, it has to be something from beyond our universe. Most religions believe this to be the soul, the connection between our physicals bodies and whatever’s beyond.

That's a lod of rubbish, I'm sorry but it is.

I am aware that I am typing this. And that awareness comes from where??? My head, and what's in my head?? Yep, well done, my brain.

[Growler]

tahts what i mean, what ever religion YOU support, you found out that the most unlikely relgion thats not your is true, hence the example.

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

if you could prove there was a god thou, like beyond a doubt, you as 1 person had totally 100% conclusive proof that there was a god (whatever religion as i dont give a damn)

The problem is there can be no such thing as 100% conclusive proof, any thing can be fabricated to look real, and the fact that we could be all part of a 'matrix' add an uncertainty to any evidence, which is reason enough to disbelieve it.