Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Bell]

Well to thier credit they still push those values on people.

But really people should already think like that from good parenting.

Whos the 'better' person the one who does good things because they think they will be rewarded when they die (heaven) or the one who doesn't believe they will be rewarded but does them anyway.

But I guess thats the whole point because shit people who believe in heaven might behave.
(Not applying that to all christians just thinking outloud )

[KiLL3r]

not to mention Islam also promotes similar ideals to Christianitys

they are exactly the same, muslims just take their bible(koran)  literally, every word of it

[cobra]

christianity doesn't have a monopoly on those guidelines, but if that is all christianity stood for and christians obeyed those rules then christianity would be a positive thing in society

but it has been tainted - see fleas post about "family values" - look at the US, the most christian obsessed nation in the world, with the death penalty and war mongering, look how quick flea was to bash this scientist, who no doubt loves the universe more then any christian, just because he read the words "big bang" and it threated his fragile world view

[Bell]

To be fair flea has been quite reasonable during this 'discussion'

[DaCollector]

So that could be summed up by saying use common sense.

Ethics are taught so realistically what rice said can't be summed up by saying use common sense. Of course on top of that are the different religious/cultural/geographic influences but i'm blessed to have been bought up in the Christian based society i have been, than say some animist African or Islamic anything and i also reckon the Christian nay sayers ought to thk their lucky stars too. Also thk your lucky stars it was a anglo saxon/christian based society that gave you the chance to voice your opinions as you do too. Look what the latins, japs, slavs etc. did to their "colonies".Genocidal maniacs them all.
Heh, i've been so raped by the neg rep lately it's gonna be hard for some to give me more for the above comments.

[Bell]

Time for my summary :p

Relgion is just too dangerous and powerful to some peoples lives for my liking.
Yes there are tons of people who don't get too crazy on it.
But there are those that use it for thier own agendas they become respected figures and thier followers will believe almost anything they preach without questioning, thats when really bad things can happen.

I think no matter who you are and what you believe you should question your own beliefs often to make sure noone has twisted you too much that doesn't just include the church but also the successor of the church the media (informing you of events just like the churches used to).

I have decided the church isn't for me because I want to be completely free to choose what to believe instead of being told what only one group of people thought.
Why take my teachings and beliefs off 1 book (the koran/bible/etc) when I can take them from 100s of books.

I've gone to church plenty of times and heard all that I've needed to hear i've moved on to other books.

[Bell]

Also thk your lucky stars it was a anglo saxon/christian based society that gave you the chance to voice your opinions as you do too. Look what the latins, japs, slavs etc. did to their "colonies".Genocidal maniacs them all. .

So err wasn't germany a christain based society in umm the late 1930's
And what about america wasn't that founded as a christian nation yet they sure had alot of slaves and did alot of native bashing.

I'm not blaming christianity for that at all just sometimes the religion of a country has nothing to do with the crimes it commits.

The Japs are still around you know and they don't seem to be genocidal maniacs anymore and thats not thanks to being christian, A minority (0.7%) profess to Christianity.

[KiLL3r]

Ethics are taught so realistically what rice said can't be summed up by saying use common sense. Of course on top of that are the different religious/cultural/geographic influences but i'm blessed to have been bought up in the Christian based society i have been, than say some animist African or Islamic anything and i also reckon the Christian nay sayers ought to thk their lucky stars too. Also thk your lucky stars it was a anglo saxon/christian based society that gave you the chance to voice your opinions as you do too. Look what the latins, japs, slavs etc. did to their "colonies".Genocidal maniacs them all.
Heh, i've been so raped by the neg rep lately it's gonna be hard for some to give me more for the above comments.

see this is what we (anti christians) talk about. you (christians) think you are responsible for everything good in the world. for some reason you think without christianity the world would be in chaos right now. and yet we get called the arrogant ones.

[Bell]

Some do.

The fact is people can be both wonderful and evil without religous influence.

[DaCollector]

So err wasn't germany a christain based society in umm the late 1930's
And what about america wasn't that founded as a christian nation yet they sure had alot of slaves and did alot of native bashing.

I'm not blaming christianity for that at all just sometimes the religion of a country has nothing to do with the crimes it commits.

The Japs are still around you know and they don't seem to be genocidal maniacs anymore and thats not thanks to being christian, A minority (0.7%) profess to Christianity.

Thats why i said anglo-saxon/christian society. The slavic nations for instance have a very strong orthodox church yet have been brutalised and have brutalised others and not in the too distant past you may recall. Tens of millions in russia and tens of thousands in the Balkans.
The mix of the culture/religion/geography has had a major impact on many nations yet we here in nz and oz and the uk and the usa have the right to disagree and not be arrested or censored.

And Killer, i never said i was a christian, just someone who can understand the belief.
And heres another reality check bud, the world is in chaos.

[Bell]

Religion != politics

Anglo-saxons were not angels either they did plenty of stupid shit like all the others.

[Who_ate_my_rice]

what i cant understand if that why people dont seem to see its Free will.

I think dacollector brings up some good points.  whats teh point in neg repping him.  he consistantly posts a fair view point.

the majority of people here do too.  but fighting over who is rigth and who is wrong isnt going to get teh mysteries of the universe solved any faster.  unless you do soem scientific work or Search for God through prayer and study.

the atheists.  be mor etolerant of your fellow man.  and God fearers be understanding to the atheists.

and wait... Germany wasn enver a Christian based society.  there were many different religouns in germany.  the mazi party wasn't Christian.  Christianity came fromt he jewish faith.  why would Real christians mass murder their fellow men?

infact the nazi party started to use foreigners in its war against the allies. How would they knwo what religion they followed?  

to say one whole country was one religion and the other is another religon is a bit silly.  

to say america is just a christian/islamic/bhuddist/hindu/bahai/scientology nation is one of teh biggest mistakes you could ahve said.  New zealand isnt a scientology nation either.  neither is iraq or libya.  

just because tom please come out of teh closet omg.  doesnt make the whoel region one religion. hehehehe :bounce:

[DaCollector]

Religion != politics

Anglo-saxons were not angels either they did plenty of stupid shit like all the others.

Oh come on. Some will argue anything, even comparing russias great purges and the japanese rape of korea/manchuria and china and even the spanish rape of the incas etc.
Every race has had its moments but damn, thats reaching.

[Bell]

Whats reaching that anglo-saxons aren't perfect?
Or that religion isn't the same as politics.

I don't even know what you are trying to say now, is it that religion is to blame for what happened in russia and what the japanese did?
And that the british empire didn't do anything wrong?

 Christianity came fromt he jewish faith. why would Real christians mass murder their fellow men?

I've gotta lol at that.
Guess who killed jesus.


Time for sleep.

[Bell]

 Christianity came fromt he jewish faith. why would Real christians mass murder their fellow men?

I've gotta lol at that.

[TofuEater]

The Japs are still around you know and they don't seem to be genocidal maniacs anymore and thats not thanks to being christian, A minority (0.7%) profess to Christianity.

Na it's thanks to having it reinforced to them via a couple of bombs. Delivered by a Christian nation.

[ThaFleastyler]

this is that hateful rhetoric that bugs me

there are homosexuals and prostitutes all over the world - they tend not to be part of the christian idea of the family unit - nothing you can do can change this

but it has been tainted - see fleas post about "family values" - look at the US, the most christian obsessed nation in the world, with the death penalty and war mongering, look how quick flea was to bash this scientist, who no doubt loves the universe more then any christian, just because he read the words "big bang" and it threated his fragile world view

These 2 comments show that ultimately you don't understand a word of what I've been saying, and don't understand a thing about the Christian church AND/OR why Christians (and other independent pro-family groups) were so against civil union legislation and prostituion legislation.

Firstly, no-one is saying that homosexuals and prostitutes shouldn't have rights; they certainly should not be 'hated' against or shunned from society. They should be treated exactly the same as anyone else - the same fairness, the same rights - as any other member of society.

HOWEVER, there are arguments against legalising Civil Unions and Prostituton

The idea of a Civil Union goes against the traditional family environment. The point of a parental unit (and eventually a family) is to pro-create and raise children together, in order to keep the human species moving along. A same-sex parental unit cannot achieve that, so why legalise their unions? (note: this is most certainly not the same as being against homosexual people)

Prostitution has long been considered immoral behaviour - not just in Christian circles but in society at large; its always been hidden in the seedy underbelly of any community. So why would we encourage this behaviour by legalising it, and making it a legitimate career choice for young women? Its destructive behaviour - name me any prostitute (or for that matter, porn star) who gets to the end of their life and thinks "well, that was f*cking great!" (no pun intended)(note: this is most certainly not the same as being against women who work in prostitution)

Look, civilisation was raised on the principles of the family unit, and the ideal that 'it takes a village to raise a child'. Both of these ideals have been cut down by legislation introduced by this government, who seem to be intent on raising children themselves, thus making parents obsolete.

So far, Christian groups and other independent pro-family groups are the only ones saying "hey, are we really making the right decision for future generations here" - yet they get hated on because of negative and shoddy media coverage whose 'hate speech' infects the common man (like yourself, cobra) who go on to HATE upon Christians in any forum they can be heard, and a tyrannous Labour/Greens/NZ First government who just do pretty much whatever they want (as evidenced by the passing of an anti-smacking bill that had only 20% public support).

[private_hell]

hear is some interesting reading about scientists and there faith:

http://www.physorg.com/news102700045.html

[krasher]

this is that hateful rhetoric that bugs me

there are homosexuals and prostitutes all over the world - they tend not to be part of the christian idea of the family unit - nothing you can do can change this

but they deserved to be treated like humans - if you try to make their lives unpleasant because  you dont agree with there lifestyles then you are a hate filled man - who do they hurt?

Why do you think Christians are trying to make their lives unpleasant? Also, there are many Christian companies started up - mainly overseas - to employ women who previously had to sell their bodies to feed their children. These women LOVE the help they have received. I think it unlikely and have seen plenty of research that backs this up, that prostitutes make the choice freely to engage in the work they do. It is more a form of abuse then a career - regulated or not. Once regulated the unregulated industry is easier to hide and grows with an increased number of children being involved etc - at least this has been the trend in some other countries - and I haven't heard any research from the other side. This is data from research I have done personally not from being 'brainwashed by the church'.

Give up with that 'should have been taught reading comprehension at church rubbish. I didn't get it cos it was not spelt or punctuated correctly. It makes sense now and I wasn't making a big deal of it anyway.

Good that this thread is in the right place now.

America is well ahead of us in kicking religion out of its society - starting with schools etc. They have a huge 'value education' industry that is failing because it does not adequately replace the convictions that hold people to their vales. That is backed up by several huge research projects and published in a book that I unfortunately have taken back to the library now. That I would say is more likely the reason for the social decay in the states.

It was a very interesting piece of research. I will have to find it and quote it. So you can say..I don't believe you anyway. It basically showed that the closer a person was in their ideology to a faith in some 'God' the more likely it was they they would behave. I should have had this in the 'do we need God to be good' thread. Because it basically showed through research that yes, we do. It wasn't the only piece of research either. It referenced several other historical findings that were in line with its findings. It also showed age was a factor. Young people were more likely to act selfishly (doing what would benefit them if they could get away with it). Although young people with a faith were better behaved than the other youths - but not as well behaved as the older (20+ from memory) people.

I thought it was interesting. The final conclusion of the author was that people will do what they think will benefit them (even if it hurts other) and that they can get away with it, if they don't have strong convictions that anchor them to 'right' behavior. The evidence showed that it was having a faith that provided that conviction that anchored useful values in peoples lives. FYI the type of behavior they were using to judge this on was things like petty theft, cheating in tests and some other things like that that show subtle inclinations towards what are commonly frowned upon or illegal behavior.

-edit: The book is called 'The Death of Character' by James Davison Hunter.

Whoever left me the neg rep saying 'harden up' needs to take some of their own medicine and not be scared to leave their name.

[DEATH0WL]

Wow it really happened...THE ULTIMATE THREAD!!!

Now we just need new smiles :smash:

[Bell]

America is well ahead of us in kicking religion out of its society

I'm pretty sure American isn't trying to 'kick' religion out of its society at the moment declearing that you are an atheist can really hurt your political campaign in america i dont think it would have that much effect in NZ.

Theres a differences between kicking it out and keeping education and religion seperate, which is the right thing to do because kids should be free to choose thier religion and they are at school to learn important skills if they tryed to teach them the values of EVERY religion (it would be the only fair way) then there would be no time for math.

I think in general the New Zealand population is more behaved than the american and has less religious influence.

America: 14.2% Atheist
New Zealand: 32% Atheist

Murder rates (List of countries by homicide rate per year per 100,000 inhabitants)
New Zealand:    1.29
America:    5.9

I don't believe religion really has much effect on good behaviour its the society as a whole.

[krasher]

Interesting. I get what ur saying about not mixing religion and schools - but there are consequences of that and that is what the states is finding. Who knows...might have different consequences here.

Where did you get the atheist stats from? I would like to see that research that I was quoting done in NZ. Would be interesting to see the differences and similarities.

[Bell]

i'm lazy and used wiki
Which can be dangerous but im confident america is alot more religious than us.

Here you go Sensus info
http://www.stats.govt.nz/census/2006-census-data/quickstats-about-culture-identity/quickstats-about-culture-and-identity.htm?page=para012Master
NZ: 29.6 percent

The american sensus doesn't ask about religion but they do a survery instead.
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/population/religion/
Download first link.

It only gives raw numbers but from my calculation %14 are atheist
so the wiki stats are a good estimate.

Did the guy in the book do research on other countrys especially those that have become very atheist like sweden and other euro countries?
Because he really should have, thier societies aren't doing too bad for themselves without relgion, thier people aren't being any worse than before.

[BerG]

ZOMG.

THIS THREAD IS ULTIMATE!

[ThaFleastyler]

103 pages = win.