Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[KiLL3r]

tell someone theyre going to burn in hell forever and of course theyre going to act good.

religion is nothing more than scaremongering forcing people  comply or face the consequences

[krasher]

tell someone theyre going to burn in hell forever and of course theyre going to act good.

religion is nothing more than scaremongering forcing people  comply or face the consequences

Some religion for sure. Christianity as I understand it is about being forgiven, not perfect. But I am just repeating myself here....in fact WTF am I doing in here again....

[frog.]

Source:
Cover Story: Is God Good?, page 33-36
New Scientist magazine, No 2619 1 September 2007

The whole article is quite interesting, but I thought of this thread when I read these 2 sections. Definitely worth a read if you get a chance.

Any comments?

what is there to comment on.

yes religion has a force for good.

we are born with this knowledge of right and wrong. what we subscribe and live for influences our path, we all know this. influenced by roles, colours, symbols and much more.  i do not think we need an extra source to help us interpret this right and wrong, this in no way should be the solution to our moral settings/situation.
what we do need help with is self realization. what we have been taught over the last few centuries, what we have sold out for takes us away from the self and pushes an outward figure in front of us. constantly looking towards Icons, God and Government for help, guidance and inspiration, after a few millennia  none have stepped up. it may feel like you indeed have liberty but in reality the leash is just long.

people running around in fear, lost and belittled by their own out of control self and space that consumes them. no one has answers that fit yet they will grab anything just to feel normal, safe and sound. the Self-less person who will willingly lay down just to breath again, even if the air is thin even if the air is tainted with unanswered questions or more sadly answers that hold no truth. just as long as he is not outside.

Christianity in particular has, is and always will try to do good. there is no doubt about it, but it's path is circular, repetitive and fixed. it can not further mankind with its moral teachings (even though they are all pagan) anymore then the five year old who already knows how to ride his bike.

[Poos]

Wowwy - That hurt my lil wee brain.

The main goal of religion should be to be sincere. However like any organisation or group they develops there own fixed view and agenda (we want to be number one, we are right), often becomes corrupt at the top. Religion focuses on the out come of the after life. Phylosophy is generally better because if focuses on how to better your self now. Surely we can take the best from religion ( moral guide lines/ faith/ sincerity) and mix that in with broad and open discussion that teaches people how to think for them selves. This is about learning & evolving.

Now can I have my banana?

[Poos]

Rofl put that in the motivation images thread:bounce:

[Arnifix]

Rofl put that in the motivation images thread:bounce:

It's not a motivational poster.

I would challenge you to produce a study which shows that humans have an innate sense of right and wrong.

[TuataraDude]

Source:
Cover Story: Is God Good?, page 33-36
New Scientist magazine, No 2619 1 September 2007



The whole article is quite interesting, but I thought of this thread when I read these 2 sections. Definitely worth a read if you get a chance.

Any comments?

I read that article as well. There are contradictory studies thoughout it (Paul, 2005, on one hand and Jensen from Vanderbilt on the other are just 2 of the examples). They tried very hard to sit on the fence without judging either side too hard. Especially the final paragraph.

Even if many no longer need religion for social cohesion or moral guidance, and we think that atheism is the only rational route, we should nevertheless recognise that religion has had a pivotal role in our evolutionary history. It can still reinforce moral values and work with our inate moral sense. It can also be used to justify immoral behaviour towards those who do not embrace our beliefs. Kile is or not, religion remains an important part of who we are.

It does not actually say the religious people are right, or that the atheists are right. It says that religion can be a force for good or evil, but that a person's own personal values will determine which way they will behave. Helen Phillips (who wrote it) went to a lot of trouble to try not to show where she stands (although that comment about "we think that atheism is the only rational route" comment did give her away). This was actually refreshing as many from either side love to twist things one way or another. However, if you are looking for answers in that article, you'll be disappointed. All you'll get is arguments from both sides and be left to make up your own mind.

[ThaFleastyler]

It does not actually say the religious people are right, or that the atheists are right. It says that religion can be a force for good or evil, but that a person's own personal values will determine which way they will behave. Helen Phillips (who wrote it) went to a lot of trouble to try not to show where she stands (although that comment about "we think that atheism is the only rational route" comment did give her away). This was actually refreshing as many from either side love to twist things one way or another. However, if you are looking for answers in that article, you'll be disappointed. All you'll get is arguments from both sides and be left to make up your own mind.

Thats right - I thought it was interesting that they did try and 'sit on the fence', as it were. But I think I agree with the end result - that our sense of right and wrong, and our moral foundations, are not just hinging on religion, or an innate sense of morality, or on our upbringing - its more likely that we form an innate sense of right and wrong in whatever setting we are in, and certain activities or social settings reinforce those ideas.

Also, I wanted to post it to show that its not widely believed that church is an evil place.

[KiLL3r]

I'd call myself an Atheist but this is too funny to not post.

why do religous types find it so hard to believe in nothing?

what we perceive as nothing its more likely to be something so complex we cant begin to comprehend its existence

[Tandoori]

Don't blow things out of proportion here, the pictures a bit of a laugh, that's it's purpose.

When people blow things out of proportion and take things out of context you get people burning crosses and crying out "Gays are evil". It's a joke picture, put here for a bit of a flameless laugh. The informal language within the picture eliminates almost completely the ability to yield any in-depth or meritorious conversation.

[private_hell]

why do religous types find it so hard to believe in nothing?

what we perceive as nothing its more likely to be something so complex we cant begin to comprehend its existence

like a god?

[DEATH0WL]

Many questions surround nothing. Like: What is nothing? Is there really nothing? Where is nothing? Can nothing be made into anything? and so on...

[KiLL3r]

like a god?

that depends what u define a god as.

[ThaFleastyler]

why do religous types find it so hard to believe in nothing?

Because they've generally had an experience of something.

If something is proven, nothing can't be accepted. (that made sense in my head )

[Into The Void]

That Jesus dude aint so great. Lizards can walk on water too you know.

[Shadow Warrior]

Ok this is my first post here, came across a link to this Discussion from other forums and couldn't resist posting my 2 cents.

1st of I am a believer in Creationism more than I am in Evolution for the following reasons...

1. People who were born blind that have had Near Death Experiences and reported they could see when they were on the "Other Side" I'd like to see you people who believe in Evolution to explain this one. :sly: :chuckle:

2. Ghost Activity, If you ever go to a Graveyard or any other place that has a reputation for Ghost Activity late at night and happen to take a Torch with you with fully charged batteries, the batteries will be drained extremely fast. Orbs are another unusual mystery that hasn't been explained yet but I think it's Ectoplasm merging.

3. Children who have memories of Past Lives (I know Christians are dead against the idea of Reincarnation but many Buddhist's and Hindu's will beg to differ) but  it's more convincing evidence of there being an Afterlife, The Cases of Cameron Macauley and James Leininger are perfect examples,  James is in particular because of his fascination with WW2 Fighter Planes in this lifetime and even knows the proper names for Planes. It's hard to believe these kids are making claims as serious as this up.

4. Well known Psychics/Mediums who seem to be extremely accurate when giving readings to people, Watch shows like Sensing Murder which is a fine example of respectable Medium's accuracy when it comes to Murder Cases. I find it hard to believe they are getting information about the cases from other sources.

5. Quantum Physics. Need I say more.

LOL I expect someone to reply to what I've written with half assed arguements against all of it, Honestly though I have no time at all for debunkers of the "Paranormal"

By the way I think some of you should look at Victor Zammit's website http://www.victorzammit.com he is a Lawyer who is out to prove the Existence of the Afterlife. He gets agressively attacked by Hard Nosed Skeptics but they have never disproved any of his Evidence. all they do is attack him but what he shows there is pretty damning evidence.

I am far more comfortable with the idea of existing after this Life than the idea of being nothing at all, Skeptics say we base our beliefs on Faith, that may be but there is so much evidence out there as well.

That is all.
Have a nice day.

/end Rant.

[KiLL3r]

Ok this is my first post here, came across a link to this Discussion from other forums and couldn't resist posting my 2 cents.

1st of I am a believer in Creationism more than I am in Evolution for the following reasons...

1. People who were born blind that have had Near Death Experiences and reported they could see when they were on the "Other Side" I'd like to see you people who believe in Evolution to explain this one. :sly: :chuckle:

just because they are blind its does not mean their minds cannot create images in their head. the brain is highly evolved, when you dream you often see things you may have never seen in real life.

2. Ghost Activity, If you ever go to a Graveyard or any other place that has a reputation for Ghost Activity late at night and happen to take a Torch with you with fully charged batteries, the batteries will be drained extremely fast. Orbs are another unusual mystery that hasn't been explained yet but I think it's Ectoplasm merging.

orbs are nothing but dust. wanna prove orbs? get a camera and a dusty blanket. turn all the lights off start beating the dusty blanket and take a picture with the flash and you will get 100% authentic "spirit" orbs

3. Children who have memories of Past Lives (I know Christians are dead against the idea of Reincarnation but many Buddhist's and Hindu's will beg to differ) but  it's more convincing evidence of there being an Afterlife, The Cases of Cameron Macauley and James Leininger are perfect examples,  James is in particular because of his fascination with WW2 Fighter Planes in this lifetime and even knows the proper names for Planes. It's hard to believe these kids are making claims as serious as this up.

how can you believe in creatonism and reincarnation?  its totally destroys any idea that there is a heaven. in the bible everyone is dead until the rapture when they raise from the ground and are judged. so if these kids are legit reincarnations that proves gods non existence

4. Well known Psychics/Mediums who seem to be extremely accurate when giving readings to people, Watch shows like Sensing Murder which is a fine example of respectable Medium's accuracy when it comes to Murder Cases. I find it hard to believe they are getting information about the cases from other sources.

Never trust a tv show. ratings are what sells and if you advertise "skeptics will turn into believers" your gonna watch it to see if its legit. Those shows are always setup, and the ones that arnt, the psychics are always wrong.

5. Quantum Physics. Need I say more.

yes

LOL I expect someone to reply to what I've written with half assed arguements against all of it, Honestly though I have no time at all for debunkers of the "Paranormal"

By the way I think some of you should look at Victor Zammit's website http://www.victorzammit.com he is a Lawyer who is out to prove the Existence of the Afterlife. He gets agressively attacked by Hard Nosed Skeptics but they have never disproved any of his Evidence. all they do is attack him but what he shows there is pretty damning evidence.

That is all.

/end Rant.

its easy to dismiss everything if you arnt going to listen to the otherside of the argument. insecure in your beliefs?

[ThaFleastyler]

1. People who were born blind that have had Near Death Experiences and reported they could see when they were on the "Other Side" ... 2. Ghost Activity, ... 3. Children who have memories of Past Lives ... 4. Well known Psychics/Mediums ... 5. Quantum Physics. Need I say more.

Also, to add to KiLL3rs skepticism at your post, Shadow Warrior, if I'm right, doesn't your number 5 (Quantum Physics) effectively rule out your numbers 1 through 4?

What I would recommend is that you read back through the 119 pages of this thread, looking at the key posts in the thread. You'll find that alot of your points have already been discussed and covered thoroughly. Your points about the afterlife would also be better used in this thread: http://forums.iconzarena.co.nz/showthread.php?t=30463

For a first post on these forums, that one was right up there with the worst, most out of context, vague posts I've ever read. Almost as bad as my first post last August

[Poos]

Apparently the last episode of sensing murder had the police going over what the pychics apparently found. From what I heard on the radio they helped alot, I messed it did anyone else see it?

Oh and you can believe in creation and reincarnation, creation is to say someone created the world and universe. The idea of a spiritual realm is a whole seperate issue. In saying that it wouldn't surprise me if the christian perspective was that limited.

[Shadow Warrior]

KiLL3r obviously doesn't believe in something called the Mind's Eye or Third Eye cause he is so close minded. :sleep:

and in regards to Dreams, Your Etherel Body is actually leaving your Physical body each night when you dream and entering the Spirit World. This is the reason why our Dreams look so different, Sleep Paralysis has a connection to this when it happens the Etherel Body hasn't fully returned to the Physical. People who have been born Blind and had NDE's report they can see things in vast distances and the Colours are much more vivid than on earth, Obviously this proves your arguement is a load of bullocks. Since when have dreams had really Vivid Colours?

Poos, You are dead right, I myself believe in something called the Master Vibration and also the Christ Conciousness, The Master Vibration is responsible for all of Creation and has always existed.

KiLL3r and ThaFleastyler through their own ignorance haven't done anything to disprove what I've stated. They obviously think Science has the answer for everything. :chuckle:

As far as Sensing Murder is concerned, Deb Webber is probably the most gifted Medium on that show and highly accurate, I'd say she is right up there with James Van Praagh and John Edward.

[robbyx]

. People who have been born Blind and had NDE's report they can see things in vast distances and the Colours are much more vivid than on earth, Obviously this proves your arguement is a load of bullocks. Since when have dreams had really Vivid Colours?

They were born blind but report that colours are more vivid how the hell would they know, they were born blind and never seen the colours on earth let alone anywhere else......
I think you are looking for the " ive taken to much acid and need help thread".

[Shadow Warrior]

obviously I didn't see that error in my previous post as I was basing that comment from people who have had NDE's that have had perfect vision throughout their lives and seen colours in a new perspective when they had their NDE being aware that people born blind obviously haven't seen any colours on earth.

Get off your high horse dipshit. ooooooh I said that to an Admin, lmao. I will be banned, Scarey shit...

 These kind of discussions are pointless cause this kind of arguement will go on for eons. Atheists will be believers when they cross over.

Just another point I want to make to KiLL3r before I go regarding the arguement about Reincarnation, true Heaven exists on a Higher Plane and vibrates at a Higher Frequency, There are many Humans that don't deserve to be there after they die and go to lower Planes. Reincarnation happens due to free will and Karmic Debt, An all merciless God like the Christian God does not exist. I yet to see anything you say that disproves the existent of Ghosts by the way.

[robbyx]

Actually its threads like this  that are NOT pointless, people exchange ideas, maybe come up with some new answers, get a broader perspective of how other people think and live.....its only when dickheads like you come along that it becomes pointless.

[ThaFleastyler]

KiLL3r and ThaFleastyler through their own ignorance haven't done anything to disprove what I've stated. They obviously think Science has the answer for everything. :chuckle:

KiLL3r, would you like to join me in laughing at this comment - our opinions being lumped in together as similar ... HA!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Shadow Warrior, I would direct you to thoroughly read the thread before ignorantly and unfairly summarising its contents and generalising the opinions of those who have been posting here since day 1.

Furthermore, from what you have posted, it seems to me that your beliefs are such a mishmash of many different types and conflicting sources of beliefs that its amazing to me you manage to clarify what any of them are; plus, so far your attitude towards those who have posted have shown that you are only interested in propagating your own beliefs without taking into account or fairly discussing the beliefs of others. In short, GTFO.

[cobra]

5. Quantum Physics. Need I say more.

please say more, in my quantum physics class at uni the professor forgot to cover how quantum physics proves there is an afterlife