Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[SittingDuck]

Many things can alter the orbit of our planet...

But it's too hard to hold it in

[Arnifix]

technically speaking the earth/world is fixed - its in a fixed orbit - so it all depends on your interptation of the english language

I'm fairly certain there are also references to the heavenly bodies circling the earth. Don't ask me where though. Highly likely it's not in the bible, but in another text.

To whoever was talking about how science doesn't explain the big bang. There are very few theories about what caused it, yes. It's something interesting to work away at. Just because science cannot currently explain it though, does not mean that it will never be explained. Scientific progress has increased substantially over the past century. It is simply a matter of time before a theory emerges that will then become the Origin of Species for the big bang.

And there are shitloads of theories on gravity. And? There is one widely accepted theory, and a pile of other interesting ideas which are under development. That's what science is about, constant improvement and betterment through experimentation and observation.

[dirtyape]

As I say, a couple of poetic verses that were used wrongly back in the day doesn't make a generalisation about all Christians correct. You are wrong for perpetuating that it would.

No they don't. But, the consequences of poorly written / translated religious text can be devastating can't it.

"Thou shalt not suffer a with to live" Exo 22:18

"I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." Matt 22:20

Both those passages played / continue to play very significant roles in history.

The first is obvious.

The second, a mis-translation, gave birth to the end of the world concept that is now inherent in society. "World" is actually Aeon, which means "Age". I will be with you until the end of the Age.

The age's refer to the Great Year, a period of ~25,800 years. It's divided into 12 section, named for the astrological sign they fall under. See a wiki.

Age of Taurus, 4300 BC to 2150 BC

Age of Ares, 2150BC to 1AD, Moses (upset by people worshipping the bull - the old age), Mitra (killed the bull and ushered in the new age)

Age of Pieces, 1AD to 2150AD, Jesus, will be with us till the end of the age, and so he will be.
The Last Supper, Luke 22:10, He replied, "As you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him to the house that he enters. . This is Jesus announcing his successor.

Age of Aquarius, 2150AD to ?, represented by ?

[KiLL3r]

quantum fluctuations

Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[KiLL3r]

http://www.iamanatheist.com/

[Fragin]

If science keeps changing then how do we know that science about god or how the universe was created wont change in the future, changing everything you believed in.

Do you not see the irony in that statement Flea? Religious beliefs have been back peddling  ever since science started. There is practically no area of our physical understanding of the universe where science has not explored, found the truth, and usually completely exposed as fraud the prevailing religious dogma that sought to explain the phenomenon.

The earth centric view of the universe is a very good example and that's why i brought it up.

God didn't create the Earth and put it on it's foundations. Or the Sun for that matter. Or the stars, mountains, oceans. God didn't even create life. What has God done exactly? God was once a powerful and relevant supreme being that controlled and directed the world around us, but has now been reduced to some sort of simple thing that flicked the switch to start the big bang billions of years ago and that's all. Science has owned God.

How many religious frauds have to be uncovered before people realise that God doesn't... actually... exist.

How can religious beliefs today be anything other than some sort of psychological need on the part of the practitioner. Talk of God actually being relevant and influential is a joke.

[hemihapuka]

Another reason I hate the religious. One of the black-suited, "nice young man" types bashed on my door this morning and woke me up. By the time I actually got to the door he'd pissed off. Sigh.

That was actually a Detective coming to check out your stash

[Fragin]

Holy shit! I've got a custom title.


I think it's some cryptic thing about washing machines.

[ThaFleastyler]

If science keeps changing then how do we know that science about god or how the universe was created wont change in the future, changing everything you believed in. would you still believe that we came from mokeys, or start to believe the new science - monkeys come from us.

Do you not see the irony in that statement Flea?

Umm, I didn't write that statement.

And to be honest, I don't see the irony in that statement. If science changed to support a God-centred view of creation, that wouldn't effect faith for most people.

[Zarkov]

Holy shit! I've got a custom title.


I think it's some cryptic thing about washing machines.

You've had it for about a week.

It's in recognition of your powers of observation.

[Arnifix]

That was actually a Detective coming to check out your stash

Glad he gave up then

[Fragin]

Umm, I didn't write that statement.

no shit einstein!

[Fragin]

You've had it for about a week.

It's in recognition of your powers of observation.

ha! didn't even look. :asian:

[Bounty Hunter]

cant wait for the particle accelerator at CERN to fire up next year...

[DDM]

Yeah.

New age here we come!

Hopefully.

[Arnifix]

Yeah.

New age here we come!

Hopefully.

New age, or new dimension. Find out next year.

[TuataraDude]

cant wait for the particle accelerator at CERN to fire up next year...

Mini black holes, here they come. Cool! They may even be able to detect the Higgs Boson, known by many scientists as the God Particle. (nice segue to the topic at hand)

After reading some of the posts here, I find it is a rather unwinnable discussion. "Why?" do you ask. Because people seem to think it is either religion or science. Those on the pro-religion side tend to be a little more accepting that science has answered some questions that seem to contradict what is written in the Bible. However, if we are to call this a Religion V Science thread, people have to remember that the Bible is but one part of religion. There is also the Quran (sp?), the Talmet etc. Also, they all tend to have been written a long time ago when science was basically unheard of. It was also written by humans. Those fallible creatures who can quite easily misinterpret what was meant, deliberately write up their view of something to suit their own argument (The Old Testament was written to keep the locals in line while the New Testament is mostly peoples accounts of what they heard someone else saw. And THEN, high ranking church officials decided which bits to leave in and which bits to leave out). Anyway, let's face it, we laugh at science books of a hundred years ago, so it is only natural that some people are going to laugh at a book that is a 1000 years old (or older). People who are religious, are not going to be swayed by some science for a couple of reasons. One: Science is not infallable. Theories change constantly, are revised etc. I mean, I heard last year that even Einsteins theory of general relativity may need some tweaking. There is no reason why science and religion cannot actually work side by side. The trouble with religion is man's interpretation of what was right and what is wrong (the source of most wars until now). There is a strong case to answer that religion is not some deep seated psychological need by humans to find meaning in their own existence and to placate the fear of death. There is also a strong case for the scientists to answer why the universe is the way it is, because a shit load of stuff had to be just right for us to be standing on this rock we call earth. The four basic forces had to be spot on, the conditions for a habitable planet had to be just right. The coming together of the right protein strands had to happen in the right way or we would never have evolved. The big bang (or inflation, whichever they decide upon) had to start somehow. Two: Religion is about faith, and no logic in the universe is going to change that.

Is it not possible that there is a God AND that the scientists are generally on the right track to explaining the universe? I love science, I believe a lot of it is accurate, but I also believe it is not going to be able to answer every question....ever. There has to be room for some faith. Is that because I have a deep seated psychological need to find meaning in my own existence? I'll conceded that is it possible. But it doesn't feel right to me that we are here by pure random chance (once again, I'll conceded it might be psychological needs).




And before people start asking "If God exists, why does He let bad things happen to people?", don't ask me. I do not have answers, only more questions.

[Simon_NZ]

Seriously, fuck knows why I came back here. But shit, listen to yourselves. Religion is farce, I have nothing but contempt for you and any religion.

Faith is the belief in nothing, it is the belief in the lack, the non-existence of empirical, falsifiable evidence. All your are doing is proving how fundamentally stupid and gullible you really are, I guess that is why you choose to live life in ignorance, happy to satisfied with a lack of understanding of the world.

I don't give two shits about the bible, I do care about what it has done to the world. What it has taught generations upon generations of people to think. All religions bear traces of the fact that they arose during the intellectual immaturity of the human race, before we had the ability to discover and speak the truth.

Now, let us imagine I tell you the following store:

There is a man who lives in the North Pole, he lives there with his wife and some elves who throughout the year make toys and stack them into his sleigh which is powered by...flying reindeer. On Christmas Eve each year this man flies house to house and places presents under trees around the whole world, in one night.

Yup, Santa Clause. You do know the story of Santa isn't true? Right? but what if I believed it with all my heart? I then started taking peoples money for my belief, I declare war on nations based on my belief of Santa, I commit genocide in the name of Santa, I would be committed and mentally ill, and rightly so. Faith is simply an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable. A man full of faith is simply one who has lost, or never had the capacity for true, clear and realistic thought. You not only make an arse of yourself and your own power of thought you are in fact ill. So go ahead and say what you want about the miracle of your unquestioning faith, I consider the mere capacity for such a brainless cop out terrifying and vile.

I will leave you all with my final thoughts on the matter, personally I would never consider a serious relationship with someone religious. My children will have nothing to do with Sunday school or religious education at school. I actually dream of the day when the Earth wakes up and banishes religion in favor a humanist philosophy that upholds reason, ethics, and justice, and specifically rejects the supernatural and the spiritual as warrants of moral reflection and decision-making.

" Religion is regarded as the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful."

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest" - Denis Diderot.

Ape, your analogy of likening to Religious types to children who still believe in the Tooth Fairy was superb, It really did brighten my day. Fraggin, as always your posts are concise and poignant. To the rest of you, grow up - stop being so pathetic, have faith in yourselves, friends and family not some socially constructed myth.

[DDM]

How many of us believed in Santa, the tooth fairy, monsters under our bed or any other story told to us by our parents? Just because we believed in those things doesnt mean we are stupid or gullible.

If believing in a god gives people reason to live a fulfilling, nourishing, morally correct life then i don't think its fair that anyone here can call those people gullible/stupid.

I don't understand WHY they feel the need to believe what they do, but i accept that it makes them happy and to me thats what really matters most.

[cobra]

^fuck i was bring up  the whole god is like tooth fairy 50 pages ago and the christians were telling me to go die in a fire, now it's become hip.


Can one of the christians explain how the christian view of the world can change - surely gods word can't change (he is all knowing) and if science can influence the interpretation that casts shadows on any interpretation of the bible

[Simon_NZ]

How many of us believed in Santa, the tooth fairy, monsters under our bed or any other story told to us by our parents? Just because we believed in those things doesnt mean we are stupid or gullible.

If believing in a god gives people reason to live a fulfilling, nourishing, morally correct life then i don't think its fair that anyone here can call those people gullible/stupid.

Yes, as children we believe many things. Again, as children. Not fully grown adults. What if I told you about a small teapot that orbited the sun which wanted a intimate relationship with our lives? Oh, you can't see this teapot either, it is too small to be seen by telescopes. Yeah, it is fucken ridiculous isn't it?  It is exactly the same as a bearded white guy in heaven.

And unlike you I think it is perfectly fair to call them stupid and gullible. I would say the same to any scientist who believes in the supernatural as well - at a basic fundamental level they are wrong. They have lost the capacity for logical realistic thought. I truly believe that religion is a form of mental illness. Just take a look at it from a purely objective standpoint, how could any sane, reasonable and intelligent person come to any other conclusion?

Why do you need god to live a nourishing and morally correct life? Are you saying that without god they wouldn't? Is the only reason they behave in a manner that befits societies norms is fear? It is sad the don't have the capacity to live the said life without a imaginary moral compass.

The best thing religion has EVER done was provided a template for Evan Almighty. Funny shit. And Jesus was Black, fuck yeah.

[D_Unit]

Z   O   M    G!!!




SIMON!

[krasher]

I must admit you guys prove a point.

Read through the pages and pages of this thread and see who has treated who more respectfully. Sure you don't need religion to be good, but it appears to help. Just as in the research that I quoted a few months back, it is scientifically proven that without a faith morality diminishes. When I say morality I mean a desire to do what is good for the wider community over ones self.

So yeah. Nice job fullas. All most of you do is make narrow pointed attacks based on stereo types that most of you have never actually met in real life. Note that I say 'most'.

So I imagine what you will do now is go and find the one time that I lost my rag and quote it back to me, completely ignoring all of the evidence that the scientists are by far, more rude and disrespectful than the Christians represented in this thread.

[dirtyape]

How many of us believed in Santa, the tooth fairy, monsters under our bed or any other story told to us by our parents? Just because we believed in those things doesnt mean we are stupid or gullible.

Yes it does. It means we didn't know any better, we were naive, ignorant, gullible, and yet willing to suspend disbelief because of the benefits gained through belief or because we trusted someone who told us a falsehood.

If believing in a god gives people reason to live a fulfilling, nourishing, morally correct life then i don't think its fair that anyone here can call those people gullible/stupid.

I don't understand WHY they feel the need to believe what they do, but i accept that it makes them happy and to me thats what really matters most.

No. I don't think you understand the scope of the problem. You're just looking at things on a per individual basis.

How many Christians think that Muslims are evil terrorists?  How many Christians would take the side of a fellow Christian against a Muslem simply for the fact that they share the same beliefs?

Religion skews perspectives. It is used to control societies. It is used to placate them, and when required it is used to enrage them.

And when you combine religion, with a dumbed down entertainment driven society you can get away with murder. Literally.

[DDM]

No religion has perfect morals.

Just because you have faith in a higher being doesnt mean you are the ultimate super human who never does anything wrong. Regardless of the rules set down to you by your god, im certain there are people who have done some very atrocious things.

Some people even do them in the name of god.


Sure, that might just be a small group of christians/muslims/any other religion you can think of but the same can be said of us that have no religion. Small numbers of us do the wrong things but the rest of the population is just as adept at living a morally correct life as you are.

How many Christians think that Muslims are evil terrorists? How many Christians would take the side of a fellow Christian against a Muslem simply for the fact that they share the same beliefs?

How many people without a religion would also believe that muslims are evil terrorists? GOD (read: The Media) has passed down that untruth, and countless amounts of people chose to believe it blindly, much the same as a christian would. So, some of us anti religious folk are just as gullible and stupid.

Not aligning to a specific faith doesnt mean we are immune from believing some seriously dumb shit sometimes. While you yourself Ape would probably look deeper into the topic and get a better understanding, can you honestly say that EVERYONE is going to do the same?