Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Simon_NZ]

Thanks Temp, it is nice to be missed :rolleyes:

Anyway, this site: http://www.godandscience.org/ - what a load of shit. I'm sorry it really is, if you find it interesting then you really need to take some foundation level science papers at University. The way they bend definitions to there own purpose is simply wrong. It really is trying to suck the young in.

Creation Science is, and never will be real science. Creation and Intelligent Decision cannot and should not ever exist in the same space, thankfully in 1987, the Supreme Court decided in Edwards v. Aguillard that equal time (for Creation and Evolution) laws like Louisiana's violated the establishment clause of the First Amendment of the Constitution because they promoted an inherently religious idea: creationism.

Anyway, I shan't be saying long. Dirty Ape attempts to stamp out ignorance far more effectively than I ever can. I was actually just bored from studying, read this, got annoyed and vented.

If you want some interesting sites, that aren't actually lying I would recommend:

http://richarddawkins.net/
http://www.natcenscied.org/default.asp
http://www.skeptic.com/

Don't live in ignorance, It is perhaps the saddest thing you can do. I'm about to start my postgraduate studies in the Earth Sciences, and the more I learn the more I find the Earth is infinitively more complex and amazing. Why would you want to write that off?

[Zarkov]

http://richarddawkins.net/
http://www.natcenscied.org/default.asp
http://www.skeptic.com/

Nice sites.

[Simon_NZ]

Thanks Zarkov.

http://richarddawkins.net/article,1777,Eugenie-Scott-on-Intelligent-Design-and-Young-Earth-Creationism,Eugenie-Scott-AAI-07

Watch these if you have the time. Dr. Eugenie Scott is an amazing woman.

[DEATH0WL]

I can say that the teenage population of Dunedin is not and has not been brainwashed by religion.

So no need to worry my deep thinking friends, we're all free of any religion or beliefs. Except some of us being vegetarians here and there (Yeah yeah, not the way our bodies built for, who cares!).

Don't worry about me getting brainwashed either, I know your right since you present fuck loads of evidence that I can only understand half of, instead of some story told by a nice man with a beard and long hair nearly 2000 years ago that still has people interpreting it wrong.

I say they should get rid of religious door knockers. It's obviously just agitating people, who wants to be interrupted in their day off to have somebody else tell them they should join a group with completely different views to them?

[dirtyape]

The problem with this is that its written under the assumption that God does NOT exist.

No, you have read it under the assumption that only your god exists. And if i don't agree with that then you think i am saying no god exists.

My comments are written under the assumption God DOES exist.

Therefore, any chance of agreement between us is doomed from the get-go.

Well, at least we agree on this.

I mean, I could keep defending and defending, and repeating myself over and over that you're perpetuating stereotypes which simply do NOT exist in the modern day Christian church in New Zealand (thus making them irrelevant). I am a Christian, but only because i believe in God and Jesus Christ. I do read the bible for spiritual inspiration, but I wouldn't go out on a whim because "God spoke to me through the bible" - much as in other areas of life, I would think on it, and due to my spiritual beliefs pray about it, and make an informed decision based on all possible angles, outcomes and perspectives. I believe the Bible speaks figuratively for the most part, but is true historical account in some parts as well. I DON'T believe God is a shape or form that is recognizable to humans - for example, when the Bible says we are formed "in His image" I think that is figurative (additionally, in regards to someone saying that Jacob said he had "seen" God, I think thats figurative as well). I don't feel I need to keep justifying my beliefs or explaining myself; I just do it because I feel like those of you attacking Christianity in this thread have a waaaaay wrong impression of what its about. Lastly, I believe that even if you DON'T believe in God, He still believes in you.

TBH, I'm just tired of having to defend my faith in a discussion which was supposed to be Religion vs Science - a topic which has not been fairly covered since the OP.

Sounds like you just described mainstream Christian beliefs to me.

Before I go on I would just like to clear something up. There is a lot of confusion around the term "God", it really bugs me. There are many gods, many lords, many definitions.

Your God is called Yahweh. This is how he should be referred to. It will save confusion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

So, your beliefs. How Christian are they?
Was man made by Yahweh's design?
Is there such a thing as sin?
Is mankind inheritantly sinful?
Is there a place called hell that you go to if you are naughty?
Do you have eternal life in heaven if you are good and obey all the rules?
Did Jesus exist, and was he really the avatar of Yahweh, and did he sacrifice himself for all man kind?

These are fundamental beliefs of Christianity. These are the important ones. I may have missed some in my haste, but these are what define your religion.

These are what I am talking about.

Like the Heaven/Hell duality. Obey or burn. This is the most devious form of social control. If you follow the rules you are promised eternal life. Otherwise you burn forever. This is a blatant control technique. It is a threat to gain obedience.

I wont go on about the others.

[nzjeebs]

Im going to go off and read the bible.

I don't understand how people can have the nerve to criticize Christianity or any other religion when they really know nothing about it. So, im going to shut my gob until i know enough about Christianity to make a decision as to what im going to believe.

Sucks when you know the ending though >.<

Spoiler :

Jesus dies!

[Simon_NZ]

I have read the bible, cover to cover.

Which is more than I can say about alot of "Christians" I know.

[dirtyape]

Therein lies the problem - its impossible to say anything about Muslims because as soon as I brought them up, you said "yeah, but Christians have done worse". Give me a good answer! Why hasn't anyone said aything to attack Muslims? Or Hindus? Or Scientologists? Or Brethrens? Or Catholics? Or Mormons? Or Jehovahs Witnesses? Or Bah'ai? Hmmm? I'm genuinely interested!

Every attack on a religion in this thread has been aimed unfairly and squarely at Christianity - from stereotyping all Christians as believing the sun orbits the earth, or that all Christians believe the earth is only 6000 years old, or that all Christians are only in it for the money or whatever. Again and again posters in this thread have written with little regard for the idea that maybe those of us who believe in God are SO 100% SURE OF IT that none of that matters.

I'm not an expert on those religions. I wouldn't want to speak out of ignorance.

And I never stereotyped Christians by saying any of the things you mention above. I stereotype Christians based on their mutual beliefs, as they should be stereotyped. Se my previous post.

And once again, I never said there was no god. I just say there is no Yahweh, and that Christianity, and Judaism I guess, are not accurate, they are mythical, and they are unnatural and perverted social control systems. That's all. It doesn't mean there is no god at all.

It just means that any religion that attempts to describe a reason for existence in ANY way is really just talking through its arse.

Christians are generally nice people I guess, most have good intentions, but really, they are nice slaves. The moment you adhere to a religion is the moment you throw away your identity. No longer are you being yourself, you are trying to be that which was dictated to you.

You are a slave to the myth. You probably feel the same about Jesus as people once felt about Horus, or Perseus, or Zeus, or any other god. But then again maybe not, those religions did not banish you to hell for sinning, people actually worshipped those gods of there own free will.

But on the bright side, kudos to Rome! Your legacy lives on. (Romans like slaves btw, it's what built the empire)

Evidently you are a blind ape, as well as a dirty ape.

Tell me, when was the last time you saw a POSITIVE news report about any Christian church?

Don't be so melodramatic. 99% of what you here on the news is bad, why should Christians be any exception?

I don't watch the news anyway. I select my current affairs online.

Honestly, is any other group as WIDELY PERSECUTED as Christians in this day and age (except maybe Muslims)?

That's a bit cliche don't you think?

I think the Jews are a bit more persecuted myself.

Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres to see just how persecuted you are.

You guys barely get a mention.

[dirtyape]

Therein lies the problem - its impossible to say anything about Muslims because as soon as I brought them up, you said "yeah, but Christians have done worse". Give me a good answer! Why hasn't anyone said aything to attack Muslims? Or Hindus? Or Scientologists? Or Brethrens? Or Catholics? Or Mormons? Or Jehovahs Witnesses? Or Bah'ai? Hmmm? I'm genuinely interested!

Every attack on a religion in this thread has been aimed unfairly and squarely at Christianity - from stereotyping all Christians as believing the sun orbits the earth, or that all Christians believe the earth is only 6000 years old, or that all Christians are only in it for the money or whatever. Again and again posters in this thread have written with little regard for the idea that maybe those of us who believe in God are SO 100% SURE OF IT that none of that matters.

I'm not an expert on those religions. I wouldn't want to speak out of ignorance.

And I never stereotyped Christians by saying any of the things you mention above. I stereotype Christians based on their mutual beliefs, as they should be stereotyped. Se my previous post.

And once again, I never said there was no god. I just say there is no Yahweh, and that Christianity, and Judaism I guess, are not accurate, they are mythical, and they are unnatural and perverted social control systems. That's all. It doesn't mean there is no god at all.

It just means that any religion that attempts to describe a reason for existence in ANY way is really just talking through its arse.

Christians are generally nice people I guess, most have good intentions, but really, they are nice slaves. The moment you adhere to a religion is the moment you throw away your identity. No longer are you being yourself, you are trying to be that which was dictated to you.

You are a slave to the myth. You probably feel the same about Jesus as people once felt about Horus, or Perseus, or Zeus, or any other god. But then again maybe not, those religions did not banish you to hell for sinning, people actually worshipped those gods of there own free will.

But on the bright side, kudos to Rome! Your legacy lives on. (Romans like slaves btw, it's what built the empire)

Evidently you are a blind ape, as well as a dirty ape.

Tell me, when was the last time you saw a POSITIVE news report about any Christian church?

Don't be so melodramatic. 99% of what you here on the news is bad, why should Christians be any exception?

I don't watch the news anyway. I select my current affairs online.

Honestly, is any other group as WIDELY PERSECUTED as Christians in this day and age (except maybe Muslims)?

That's a bit cliche don't you think?

I think the Jews are a bit more persecuted myself.

Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres to see just how persecuted you are.

You guys barely get a mention.

[swindle]

I have read the bible, cover to cover.

Which is more than I can say about alot of "Christians" I know.

Where the hell have you been?!

[Arnifix]

Tell me, when was the last time you saw a POSITIVE news report about any Christian church? When was the last time someone like Brian Tamaki was given a fair go on the news? Why do we only hear about how Christian churches "take" 10% of peoples money (a falsehood), but not hear about the numerous churches up and down this country turning around and using what money they ARE given to try and help there communities? Why do we only hear about the Christian Political Party when they have problems, not when they genuinely have a good idea? (... I'm sure one of them has at some point!) Why do we only hear about Catholic churches when a priest is found to be molesting a child?

Why do we only hear the bad stuff about churches, ape? Why is it ok for the host(s) of the NZ Music Awards 2007 to make fun of Christians throughout the show? Why was the presentation of the Best Gospel Award not televised? Why do no Christian artists get shown on C4 or Juice? Why are Christian and religious TV shows banished to the 5am slot on Prime (the least watched network)?

Honestly, is any other group as WIDELY PERSECUTED as Christians in this day and age (except maybe Muslims)?

Positivity on news shows in rare. I've seen reports about church groups though, positive ones.

Brian Tamaki isn't given a "fair go" because he's a racist, fascist, xenophobic bigot.

Because churches "taxing" their members is potentially illegal. Donating money is ok, but saying "pay 10% of your income to be in the church" is not.

When do we hear about any political party who has a good idea? Good ideas go through parliament quickly, without notice, normally.

Because modern societys have an abnormal fascination with pedophilia, and the extreme hypocrisy of a man of the cloth kiddy-fiddling is pretty much the very limits of the concept of hypocrisy.

Has anybody here ever benefited directly from a church? People who aren't members of the church I mean. I don't know if I have, except through the use of church halls and fairs. Mmmh, candy apples.

I did not see the awards, so I don't really know what they said or whatever, but did they poke fun at other minority groups?

Gospel music is pretty uninteresting. If you polled the people who watched that show, I bet very few would care. If Gospel was represented, but something else like Rock wasn't, there would be an uproar. There hasn't been an uproar, because nobody gives enough of a crap to make one.

Christian music is, to be general, pretty bad. Especially NZ Christian music. And I'm not just talking about groups whose members are christian, but those who write about Christian topics. It's simply not something most people would want to listen to, so why would a music station who are attempting to appeal to as many people as possible with as much of their programming as possible play something with VERY limited appeal, and that many people would ACTIVELY dislike.

Those TV shows are generally aired at those times because they get terrible ratings. Poll 100 people and ask them if they would want to watch the gospel truth or whatever the fuck. Don't forget that there is more than one brand of christian too, so what might appeal to a catholic would not appeal to a protestant (or one of the sub-branches). You'd have to air about 20 shows to cover the majority of Christian religions. And what are you complaining about, when was the last time you saw a Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist tv show?

Finally, the whole idea of Christians being persecuted. Pardon? Look at the US. Do you see christians being persecuted? Because I see more and more laws attempting to define morals based on Christian-beliefs. In several states in the US, Christian politicians and their supporters have pushed through laws banning the sale of sex toys! Vibrating cocks! It is a crime to buy or possess them! Thanks to these Christians, the rights of thousands of non-believers are being curtailed. Ridiculous example or not, this is just one of the ways in which Christians are frequently limiting the lifestyles of people who do not believe in their god. Bro, I've met you, you seem like a reasonable person, and I'm not saying all Christians are like this, but come on. I can't buy a fucking beer on Easter Sunday (or monday, I forget). I don't worship God, why the hell should I not be allowed to buy a damn beer at the supermarket? It's little things like this, as well as the US right-wing fundie led government curtailing personal freedoms, that really make me dislike Christianity as a religion. I dislike Muslims less, primarily because they influence my life less. While the shit they get up to is no less offensive (the very idea of religious law makes me sad in the pants), and it's depressing to think of the number of women who are oppressed in Muslim societies, it simply does not affect me enough for me to rant about it on the interbutts.

PS. Have the forums broken for anyone else? It says P126 for me, but there is apparently a page 127 that I cannot get to.

[Simon_NZ]

I remember in first year a christian youth group would bake bread and hand it out outside my ladies hostel. Tasty fucken bread too.

[DEATH0WL]

Has anybody here ever benefited directly from a church? People who aren't members of the church I mean. I don't know if I have, except through the use of church halls and fairs. Mmmh, candy apples.

Yeah. I'm getting my education paid for me by them as we speak (Or they built the buildings and brought a majority of the gear I use, same difference), and I'm not grateful in the least.

Serves them right, they're treating me like shit and seem to be happy to get rid of me over, wait for it... Voicing my beliefs!

So if you want to stay, you got to shut the fuck up, copy all the crap they write for you and at least make them think you go to the mass' they hold.

And it's like this for everybody else who's parents are religious. We're all pissed in our own ways at having to do all sorts of religious things when they mean nothing to us, most of us just laugh at some of the really ridiculous stuff. If we all left they would probably only have around 90 students, they need us there but seem all too happy to kick out good students who don't want to remain silent and be disallowed to voice their opinion.

That's life.

[Arnifix]

Ok, so I feel like ranting some more.

I dislike the tactics which have been used against me by Christians to try and convert me.

Religious education in school.

It's not religious education, it's Christian education. I went to a public school and had to put up with this shit, except I asked annoying questions, so my parents removed me from the class (who didn't see that coming). Suited me and my parents fine, I got to read interesting books about dinosaurs instead. Not 6000 year old dinosaurs either.

If religious education was a proper subject, then it would interest me greatly. I would love to have been taught about what various Christian denominations believed in, and then had that contrasted with other religions from around the world. Even better would have been if the similarities were studied, showing that most Western religions are descended from each other. IE, a scientific study of religion. But it's not, it's simply a method of indoctrinating young children who don't know any better. Young kids believe what adults tell them, usually without question! How is it in any way moral or right to tell them to believe in any one religion?

Church as a game/Sunday school

This pretty much fits in with the above shit. I was invited around to a dudes place back when I was a kid to play some Asterix on his Mega Drive (zomgz it was fun). Then he said he was going to a church thing and it was fun, and I should come. Since it would be just weird to stay at his house, I went along.

The kids were rewarded with stamps every time they came. They were given additional stamps if they brought a friend who didn't come to the church normally. It was a fucking recruitment drive.

If the army did that, bribing people to sign up their friends, it would be looked at very, very harshly. I know I felt used. Consequently, I was no longer friends with that kid, despite his zomgz awesome Mega Drive.

Sunday school. What the fuck is up with that. Adults go to church, but kids don't like church, so they come up with a way to make church fun for kids by dumbing down all the myths into bite sized, child friendly version, and teaching it like it's fact. They even call it school. Once again, kids believe what adults tell them. Adults are constantly telling children to pay attention to teachers and listen to what they say. We tell kids that teachers know what they're talking about! And then send them to sunday school, as if it was (pardon the pun) gospel.

And that, ICONZ, is what really grinds my gears.

[Arnifix]

Yeah. I'm getting my education paid for me by them as we speak (Or they built the buildings and brought a majority of the gear I use, same difference), and I'm not grateful in the least.

Serves them right, they're treating me like shit and seem to be happy to get rid of me over, wait for it... Voicing my beliefs!

So if you want to stay, you got to shut the fuck up, copy all the crap they write for you and at least make them think you go to the mass' they hold.

And it's like this for everybody else who's parents are religious. We're all pissed in our own ways at having to do all sorts of religious things when they mean nothing to us, most of us just laugh at some of the really ridiculous stuff. If we all left they would probably only have around 90 students, they need us there but seem all too happy to kick out good students who don't want to remain silent and be disallowed to voice their opinion.

That's life.

I would assume though, that you or your parents are members or the church? It sounds like a private school, in which case your parents would be paying hefty fees, or if it's a public school, it'll be subsidized by the government. A lot of the religious schools are actually government funded, which pisses me off no end. Education should not be mixed with religion unless religion is taught in a factual matter, ie "Christians exist" not "God exists".

[DEATH0WL]

I would assume though, that you or your parents are members or the church? It sounds like a private school, in which case your parents would be paying hefty fees, or if it's a public school, it'll be subsidized by the government. A lot of the religious schools are actually government funded, which pisses me off no end. Education should not be mixed with religion unless religion is taught in a factual matter, ie "Christians exist" not "God exists".

My parents go to church, I don't. Apparently the Bishop "owns" the school. Not sure how they got all the money to build it though. Wouldn't mind knowing a bit more on the specifics, perhaps I could get them in shit for discriminating against me cause of my beliefs?

The God, creationism and all the rest of the oh-so-obviously-fake stories are avoided like the plague now-a-days, except miracles. (Remember kids; Jesus was a walking medical cabinet healing things we still can't cure.) Unless you purposely start a one-one argument with a teacher about the subject, it will never be brought up.

What hasn't changed in RE is the Sex Ed videos. They're listing all these fucking STD's on a arcade computer (which the video actors seem to be having fun with) and say "There is no cure at the moment". 80's haircut? Arcade Space Invaders? Oh so medicine hasn't changed since then?!

Total mentions of usage of condom in RE = 1.
Total mentions of birth control in RE = None

They did however have a one hour session of class dedicated to teenage pregnancy, how fucking ironic.

[Bounty Hunter]

In other news:
How many people here have attacked muslims? Or muslim beliefs?
Answer: none.

:disappoin

crusades.

[dirtyape]

Yeah. I'm getting my education paid for me by them as we speak (Or they built the buildings and brought a majority of the gear I use, same difference), and I'm not grateful in the least.

Serves them right, they're treating me like shit and seem to be happy to get rid of me over, wait for it... Voicing my beliefs!

So if you want to stay, you got to shut the fuck up, copy all the crap they write for you and at least make them think you go to the mass' they hold.

And it's like this for everybody else who's parents are religious. We're all pissed in our own ways at having to do all sorts of religious things when they mean nothing to us, most of us just laugh at some of the really ridiculous stuff. If we all left they would probably only have around 90 students, they need us there but seem all too happy to kick out good students who don't want to remain silent and be disallowed to voice their opinion.

That's life.

Resist the mind staple.

[krasher]

Do you believe you have a spirit? Or are we 100% explainable by science - ie what can be seen and measured?

[dirtyape]

Do you believe you have a spirit? Or are we 100% explainable by science - ie what can be seen and measured?

Maybe, I'm not sure. Science has never said such a thing cannot exist. It just says such a thing is not known to be able to exist.

But until science proves such a thing exists or not I will remain undecided. The spirit or soul is but a hypothesis that warrants investigation. Chances are I'll be dead before then so I guess I'll find out.

There are things that suggest such exists, sensing murder for example. But it's not proven or explained.

String theory pretty much promotes the idea of multi-universal co-existence of the self, so perhaps gravity is the means of information transference from other universal instances?

Or maybe, seeing as how time is really a 4th spacial dimension that is perceived as moving forwards only by the biological brain's design, and is in fact static, then perhaps such phenomena as psychic communication with the dead is really the biological brain communicating through time to the mind of the dead person. It has been said that the first way we will achieve time travel will be via thought alone. Perhaps psychics have this ability.

Why do you think we have a soul?

[TuataraDude]

Or maybe, seeing as how time is really a 4th spacial dimension that is perceived as moving forwards only by the biological brain's design, and is in fact static, then perhaps such phenomena as psychic communication with the dead is really the biological brain communicating through time to the mind of the dead person. It has been said that the first way we will achieve time travel will be via thought alone. Perhaps psychics have this ability.

I read recently that just as space has multiple dimensions, they think that time may be multi-dimensional as well. I always wondered why they hadn't considered that earlier. They are quite keen to say 10 spatial dimensions and one time dimension are needed to make string theory possible. Why not apply the multi-dimensional framework to time as well?

All that will help bring quantum and classical physics together. If they are right, then a TOE may be closer than they thought (although that's been said sooooo many times over the past 110 years).

BTW, I thought it was also the level of entropy mseasured that distunguished one point in time with another. Not just the biological function within the brain. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[KiLL3r]

sensing murder is all rigged. Just like target everything is exaggerated to get more viewers.

[krasher]

Soul or spirit?

[DEATH0WL]

sensing murder is all rigged. Just like target everything is exaggerated to get more viewers.

Yeah I've always been suspicious, especially when the murders aren't solved at all and they dug up that hill looking for a body. Not there.

And didn't one of the mediums get caught?

[Fragin]

Again and again I'm confronted with the same arrogant attitude and total lack of respect for me and my beliefs, as well as the beliefs of every other person who came forward as a Christian.

I lack respect for your beliefs but not for you as a person Flea. Apologies if you feel that way.


Talking about arrogance. People on both sides can be 'arrogant' when talking about religion. It's mostly born of frustration.

However, when you consider the difference between science and religion it's religion that is the epitome of arrogance and science the opposite. Those who believe in God and the teachings of the bible trust in them without even looking and then have the gall to try and convince others that it's fact and not fiction.

Science, in contrast, has at it's foundation the act of asking questions and looking for answers. You reason, hypothesise, test, and then peer review. Scientists ask questions and ultimately accept the answer that nature gives - whatever it may be. That's humility.

The religious person simply does not accept any answer that disagrees with their established view, ie that there is a God. Even when lots of other strongly held 'truths' crumble to dust around them and they are left only with the things that cannot be examined and scrutinised. Indeed, to have faith, you must stubbornly ignore any evidence that disagrees with your view. That's arrogance.

Something for everyone to think about when accusing people of arrogance in this thread.

Frankly, I am happy to concede that certain religious groups interpreted those verses as being proof of geocentrism (wrongly interpreted), however to try and summarise all Christians as believing in geocentrism is simply wrong. I take exception to the fact that you would stereotype all people who believe in God or believe in the Bible as ALSO believing the earth is the centre of the universe. I personally don't know ANYONE who believes that. I certainly don't believe something which can so obviously be refuted using a little commonsense and a telescope.

As I say, a couple of poetic verses that were used wrongly back in the day doesn't make a generalisation about all Christians correct. You are wrong for perpetuating that it would.

There was a time when just about everyone believed in Earth as the center of the universe. It was common sense. The stars seem to be fixed in place - it all follows from there. Also, the bible said so. The bible was regarded as infallible and, indeed people were persecuted for saying otherwise. Science has proven that to be a lie. The Earth created in 6 days? - maybe that's the biggest lie ever told!

Oh how times have changed. Now people on the religious side talk about the bible as poetry or "metaphorical imagery". They talk about the "message" and say that you shouldn't take it literally anymore. But frankly, they've been forced not to.

Science has won, game set and match.