Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Arnifix]

We could replace it with 'Allah'. Seems all the rage these days

Rage being the operative word.

[Ngati_Grim]

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/arj/v1/n1#catastrophic-granite-formation


just to show the sort of things the creationists are trying nowadays. Now, this article is patently wrong, but it's funny (and kind of depressing) to see them try to fit this into their 'paradigm' of creationism.


As they become more tech savvy, we will see more of this rubbish.

It is rubbish. I know, personally, one of the leading granite researchers in the world....his response: "oh dear!"

Using pseudo science to try to cobble some more people onto the sinking ship seems like a bad idea to me.

Argh, they get me so uptight.

Geering eh?...well, he is an important figure in the New Zealand religious scence and made a few waves around the world during his heresy trial.
He's almost like a new age hippy now, transferring the notion of god as a spiritual figure, into 'god, the environment'.


But it's still not big news if you live outside christian religion. Within a christian paradigm, he causes people to question more than most. In that respect I congratulate him, but really, it's well over 30 years since his trial, and there are still people who get uptight about him.

Intolerance isn't just associated with religion, but it seems that it is one of the bigger barriers to cooperation.

Lots more to say, will at some stage.

Back to work :sunnies:

[ThaFleastyler]

I haven't read all of this massive thread so forgive me if this has been said before.

 As we are social creatures we have in our essence an understanding of how to behave in a group to ensure our survival. The 10 commandments therefore are completely unnecessary as we already know right from wrong.

 Yes if you took away laws now there would be anarchy, but if they were never set out by the elite to control the peasants i believe we would have evolved in the general direction we have moved to now.

Of course because of over population people no longer care about their neighbours, so they can find another pack, which is why I believe NZ is getting more violent.

Yeah, over-population causes extreme violence

You know, I have read page after page after page (after page) of people slagging off the Bible - but not once have any of you considered this: even if you take away the God aspect of the Bible, its still jam-packed full of pretty good advice. Have any of you read the book of Proverbs, for example? Or the book of Ecclesiastes? Whether or not you believe in God, the Bible is still a good source for advice on how to get through life. Its a shame some of you can't see the forest for the trees.

For example, lets take the last commandment, "though shalt not covet". The assumption among bible scholars is that this means not getting to the point where you want to harm someone in order to get what you want - for example, this guideline would stop you from killing your neighbour in order to get his BMW. It doesn't mean not thinking BMWs are hawt, just that you shouldn't think or do something harmful to another to get what they have. Pretty good advice, imo. Yet most of you write it off as part of the "bullshit bible from the bullshit God".

How many times have people here said "ooh, read 'The God Delusion' by Rich Dawkins". Well, how about some of you read 'The Year of Living Biblically' by non-believing ex-Jewish writer AJ Jacobs? Or for that matter, actually GET a frickin bible and read some of it! The point I'm trying to make here is, whether you believe in God or not, the Bible is still pretty useful, and still pretty relevant to todays society. And you know something Runing: maybe if we (as a society) didn't "covet" and didn't promote coveting so much, there'd be less violent crimes as well ...

Yet I digress...

Tiwa, if you replace "God" with "Allah", eventually KiLL3r would just complain about that. Unless it's only the Christian God that is the problem ... in which case I don't know what to say.

[Ngati_Grim]

Well, why does the Pope have so much wealth?

But yes, to some degree, I agree with you. Within the bible are some reasonable prescriptions for living, it's just that it gets cobbled together with all the 'god' stuff, and that can turn some people off. And yes, good idea to read widely, thus you can gain an understanding of others, for fore warned is fore armed, and if nothing else it gives an inside/different view with which to argue more completely. 'Know thine enema' etc

[Arnifix]

Hmmm. I get what you're saying, but it seems to be quite obfuscated.

Why would I go to the bible for good advice? Why not any other book? Considering the age of the text, it seems illogical to expect that advice from the bible would be better than from a contemporary text, especially considering it's mostly interpretive.

[KiLL3r]

For example, lets take the last commandment, "though shalt not covet". The assumption among bible scholars is that this means not getting to the point where you want to harm someone in order to get what you want - for example, this guideline would stop you from killing your neighbour in order to get his BMW. It doesn't mean not thinking BMWs are hawt, just that you shouldn't think or do something harmful to another to get what they have. Pretty good advice, imo. Yet most of you write it off as part of the "bullshit bible from the bullshit God".

we dont need the bible to tell us right and wrong, common sense does that for us.

[Arnifix]

we dont need the bible to tell us right and wrong, common sense does that for us.

Replace "common sense" with "societal conditioning" and you're right.

[KiLL3r]

i think we are back at the debate of "Religion as a source of moral authority' which of course most people who have read the bible will agree i false.

The bible is full of murder, violence and intolerance against anyone who defys the word of god.



But doesnt it seem strange how back in those days when blasphemy against god was so rare that god was at his most proactive, yet in todays world were more and more people are opening their eyess to the truth god refuses to show himself.

Sure you could say you see god everyday and feel his love the usual BS to make yourself feel like you have a purpose, but dont you ever wonder why no one living today has every truly seen gods actions physically like it says he used to do in the bible?

[Black Heart]

I've never read the bible, and don't feel any need for a "how to live life for dummies" book at all.

Often enough it's the people who feel 'deeply spiritual' that also seem most uptight, or basically cope badly with life.

[Possessed]

i read the bible when i was younger, had the Childrens Bible wih all the cool pictures and the normal one when older.  Still think The Lord of The Rings was a better read, and i'm catholic!

I think i agree with both of you, killa and fleastyler, i don't need a book to tell me how to live but it's nice to have it just incase i feel like some inspiration or help...i would ask Tony Robbins but he's abit too expensive

[SteddieEddie]

Fleastyler. I agree with you about our obsession for disposable commodities is a big worry, but I would hope that everyone contributing to this thread knows that killing your neighbour for their beemer is not on.

[cobra]

You know, I have read page after page after page (after page) of people slagging off the Bible - but not once have any of you considered this: even if you take away the God aspect of the Bible, its still jam-packed full of pretty good advice. Have any of you read the book of Proverbs, for example? Or the book of Ecclesiastes? Whether or not you believe in God, the Bible is still a good source for advice on how to get through life. Its a shame some of you can't see the forest for the trees.


.

i would agree that there would be a few useful tips in the bible but also the parts that promote hatred and  there are parts that dont make sense - but you find the bible is a good substitute for thinking for yourself, all power to you

[Raped_ByA_Spoon]

Personally if you stick to the new testiment, chuck away the final chapter revalations which just gets plain weird think the bible has some good stuff, and if you focus on the new chapter you get rid of allot more of the contentious, and in my opinion wrongly interpreted parts, like sodomy etc.  The only reason certain churchs (and only some of em do) focus on those parts in my opinion is they are bigots, but thast just my opinion anyway back to what I was saying.

Reason I think the new testiment (removing revalations) is good is as Flea said it does has some good morals in it.  Think the commandment love your neighbour as I have loved you is the best way you can possibly live your life.  I have been helped on numerious occasions by strangers (i.e. handing in lost property) and I try and do the same.  Yes you can say you can take this from 'societal conditioning" but I think it is good having something seemingly larger to back it.  

The main problem I have is people who read the bible literally.  It was written thousands of years ago by farmers, it has good advice but it surely has "human" errors in it anyway.  I mean how on earth is an all mighty body going to explain to a sheppard how earth was made.  Well you see first there was a big fuck off bang, mass formed" er what?  Fuck it makes my head hurt.

Anyway thats my point of view for now.

P.s. I also strongly believe there is a difference between a belief and a religon'.  People exploit 'religions' for their own benefit, case and point Brian Tamaki.

[detonator7]

but dont you ever wonder why no one living today has every truly seen gods actions physically like it says he used to do in the bible?

so ofcourse people being physically healed from sickness doesnt count.

you cant just wait around for god to pop up on the tv and say hey look at me im real, thats never going to happen. but even on the slightest chance that it does happen, people would say its fake anyway.

[harry1942]

Science
because its science
without u dont get a decent job
its not like god will come down one day and give me money and basic insurance of my living

[detonator7]

but science comes along to your house and gives you that

[KiLL3r]

so ofcourse people being physically healed from sickness doesnt count.

your not talking about those bs examples of people who have prayed for god to get rid of their cancer and the next day its gone are you?

Theres even less evidence of those storys being true than  of god existing.

Two hands working can do more than a million clasped in prayer

[Tiwaking!]

You know, I have read page after page after page (after page) of people slagging off the Bible - but not once have any of you considered this: even if you take away the God aspect of the Bible, its still jam-packed full of pretty good advice. Have any of you read the book of Proverbs, for example? Or the book of Ecclesiastes? Whether or not you believe in God, the Bible is still a good source for advice on how to get through life. Its a shame some of you can't see the forest for the trees.

There is an interesting article in the local student rag(The Critic) titled "Dont throw the Baby Jesus out with the religious bathwater". I'll scan it and post it in the thread at some point

Tiwa, if you replace "God" with "Allah", eventually KiLL3r would just complain about that. Unless it's only the Christian God that is the problem ... in which case I don't know what to say.

Actually this was a comment that was meant to echo the sentiments sounded by Reverend Rowan Douglas Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury who in one fell swoop managed to succesfully discredit two religions at once.

[Black Heart]

so ofcourse people being physically healed from sickness doesnt count.

you cant just wait around for god to pop up on the tv and say hey look at me im real, thats never going to happen. but even on the slightest chance that it does happen, people would say its fake anyway.

# of people being physically killed because of religion would be 1000x greater (conservatively) 9/11 was 3000 odd wasn't it ?

[krasher]

Depends really. I am sure some of those were Christians who thank God will have eternal life which by the way will save the lives of far more than 3000 people. But yeah, its a stupid argument anyway. Not sure why I am even commenting. In fact why am I in here again. Who reopened this thread.....

[ThaFleastyler]

i would agree that there would be a few useful tips in the bible but also the parts that promote hatred and  there are parts that dont make sense - but you find the bible is a good substitute for thinking for yourself, all power to you

Who said the bible is a substitute for thinking for yourself? I have never said that, and you've been in this thread long enough to know that implying that I would believe that, or even that I can't think by myself, is a snarky and unnecessary thing to say. This is the whole problem with arguing the merits of the Bible with those who have never picked one up: you have no perspective on what the bible is or isn't, and make giant assumptions ...

The bible is full of murder, violence and intolerance against anyone who defys the word of god.

... like these giant assumptions.

But doesnt it seem strange how back in those days when blasphemy against god was so rare that god was at his most proactive, yet in todays world were more and more people are opening their eyess to the truth god refuses to show himself.

Sure you could say you see god everyday and feel his love the usual BS to make yourself feel like you have a purpose, but dont you ever wonder why no one living today has every truly seen gods actions physically like it says he used to do in the bible?

See, by making statements like "the usual BS" you're directly insulting what I, and many others, think and feel, simply because you don't understand it. The last thing I want is for this interesting thread to turn into another slinging match. Just because you don't "get it" doesn't mean that it isn't real.

As for God not showing Himself - well, I would say that He shows Himself in many ways on a daily basis, from guidance to healing to answering prayer to inspiring the actions of others ... and I would love to provide examples from my own life and those around me, but whats the point? People who agree will agree with my statement, whereas people like yourself will just ridicule and disagree!

Consider this point:
This thread is now 133 pages long and has been going for as long as I can remember - pretty much since before I even joined this community. So if your argument is so well thought out and so convincing and so infallible, why is it that I still go to church every week? In fact, why is it that I actually feel closer to God now than I did when I found this thread?

[Black Heart]

lol cos your pig headed! /jks

[DDM]

This thread was doomed to go on forever the moment the first post was made. The battle will never end, science cant defeat faith (en-masse) and faith cant defeat science (en-masse).

Only the appearance of "god" would change the minds of the unbelieving, i dont think there is anything that could change the minds of believers.. since they just attribute everything good or bad to gods will.

[Arnifix]

Consider this point:
This thread is now 133 pages long and has been going for as long as I can remember - pretty much since before I even joined this community. So if your argument is so well thought out and so convincing and so infallible, why is it that I still go to church every week? In fact, why is it that I actually feel closer to God now than I did when I found this thread?

We're not nearly smart enough to create an infallible argument. And besides, an infallible argument requires an infallible brain to interpret it correctly. We humans are not perfect enough to manage that.

PS. Nice sig Blackheart.

[KiLL3r]

As for God not showing Himself - well, I would say that He shows Himself in many ways on a daily basis, from guidance to healing to answering prayer to inspiring the actions of others ... and I would love to provide examples from my own life and those around me, but whats the point? People who agree will agree with my statement, whereas people like yourself will just ridicule and disagree!

but those are just assumptions as well. because you believe in god you assume every good thing is related to him. I would hardly call guidance a form of showing himself. Your just forcing yourself believe in something you cannot see. The mind see whats it wants to see. Take a look at some examples of people who see jesus in random things whether it be wooden doors who talk to them or bits of toast.

I could win lotto this week and could say it the was the flying spagetti monster that blessed me with  divine luck, it doesnt make it true thou.