Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Ngati_Grim]

A major trend in this thread is saying that Christians are crazy and science is the way etc, so I thought it was interesting to point out the scientific research has discovered that not only does religion not make people less happy or psycho, but is a relevant aspect of a person and are now encouraging this. Science - encouraging religion.

Now, I am interested in the background(s) of the researcher(s)/author(s).
What is their discipline.
Are they religious, or hold a belief about god?
I would like to know if it is truly unbiased, or if there was an agenda they wanted to fulfill.

I try to ask this question (in various ways:what is the background, what did they hope to find out, what was the data pool, how was the data manipulated) of every scientific text/journal/article etc. It's a good habit to get into.

In New Zealand we are beginning to see an increase in smaller more liberal churches such as the New Life and Baptists

You can't be serious?
The New Life Church is a fundamentalist (happy-clappy) subsect and is about as liberal as a smack in the chops.They are a bigotted lot, imo.

 

We should do our best to accommodate other's cultures and religions, but we should not have to change our own too much in the process.  If you know what I mean.

I wish you had been around when this country was being colonised. The Maori sure could have done with someone with your reasoning.

[Ngati_Grim]

In New Zealand we are beginning to see an increase in smaller more liberal churches such as the New Life and Baptists

You can't be serious?
The New Life Church is a fundamentalist (happy-clappy) subsect and is about as liberal as a smack in the chops.They are a bigotted lot, imo.

 

We should do our best to accommodate other's cultures and religions, but we should not have to change our own too much in the process.  If you know what I mean.

I wish you had been around when this country was being colonised. The Maori sure could have done with someone with your reasoning.

[anotherbodybag]

I hardly call Baptists liberal either given they're smack bang in the middle of the continuum.

[Slim]

^ You don't demonstrate absolute ignorance very often Grim, but that last post was off the scale - specifically your statement concerning the New Life Church.  What you so eloquently described as a "Happy-Clappy" church is a sign of change.  There is no dogmatic bullshit, if you were baptized a Christian then thats good enough for them. They don't isolate themselves from other churches like the Catholic church tends to.

The New Life is anything but fundamentalist.  Its new age, "Hip" you might say.  That happy-clappy term is derogatory off the charts.  Its called worship.  People actually enjoy service.  I dread Catholic service, alway have, always will - they're boring and un-meaningful. But you walk into a New Life service and you really do feel something.

Yes it does attract some crazys, but who cares, you welcome them in and treat them well.

I'm not terribly easy to offend, easy to enrage (lol), but your comments were offensive.

Jesus, I'm not even a Christian.

[Arnifix]

Now, I am interested in the background(s) of the researcher(s)/author(s).
What is their discipline.
Are they religious, or hold a belief about god?
I would like to know if it is truly unbiased, or if there was an agenda they wanted to fulfill.

As previously posted by cobra.

Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

Misrepresentation of data by Krasher, imo.

[krasher]

You need to read the text around that nubcakes. I have explained that three times. You are making it easier and easier to have faith in my God over your profound ability to misinterpret data.

Not sure if I understand you correctly, but if you are saying I am the one at fault, then you are so biased it is beyond belief. I was absolutely transparent in my quote giving some context and a reference. Cobra's has nothing....who knows where the heck it came from. Mine is clearly part of the summary where as his is possibly out of the body of the discussion around some of the old school thinking....oh why do I bother, I have said this twice already.

Good questions by grim...might come back to them later. I have more info and I think you will be surprised - as I was - at the answers to your questions.

[Arnifix]

Wow, I didn't know that trolling was proof of "your" god.

[krasher]

Wow, I didn't know that trolling was proof of "your" god.

Na, it's just you Arni...you are so faith inspiring

[Black Heart]

I still ask why you think it's relevant.

[cobra]

You need to read the text around that nubcakes. I have explained that three times. You are making it easier and easier to have faith in my God over your profound ability to misinterpret data.

Not sure if I understand you correctly, but if you are saying I am the one at fault, then you are so biased it is beyond belief. I was absolutely transparent in my quote giving some context and a reference. Cobra's has nothing....who knows where the heck it came from. Mine is clearly part of the summary where as his is possibly out of the body of the discussion around some of the old school thinking....oh why do I bother, I have said this twice already.

Good questions by grim...might come back to them later. I have more info and I think you will be surprised - as I was - at the answers to your questions.

my question was have you read the book - which you didn't answer

i then quoted part of the book which indicates that the book was not representing the commonly held beliefs - science doesn't base its views on one book written by someone with obvious bias

One of the keys with science is critical analysis - a skill you seem to lack, you dont just trawl the interweb for anything that may help your case with out looking at how valid it is

for instance

If you are familiar with Piage's theories on cognitive development, it appears that some people here are displaying that they are still stuck at the 'concrete' stage and have not matured into 'formal' thinking. Yes I am talking about you cobra and killer. Probably some others but its your inability to think properly that pisses me off the most.

that was either a poor attempt at an insult or your reading comprehension has let you down again. You as displaying a lack of understanding about his theories.

[Dr Woomanchu]

Interesting point woohoo, but that's not what any of the literature that I have read points to. If you are going to try and take God out of it.....now why would you want to do that...then you could say its about community, belonging, etc. Literature talks about having core beliefs and values to hold to and that being useful, but they are only speculating. It is hard to measure that it is good for you to hang out with your creator - well that's why I think it is helpful.

My point is that your creator is exactly that. he is your creator. He doesn't exist independently of you. Outside of you there is not one single thing that you can point at and say "there goes krashers god". The same applies to everyone else's god(s).

If he is real to you, that's fine, but expecting him to be real to everyone else when he has no measurable presence in any objective reality is delusional.

Most importantly, if believing in him gives you  a happier life, and discourages you from doing things that ruin other peoples lives, then I'm all for it. The objective reality of your creator is trivial compared to that.

However , if you choose to come and claim his objective existence in a public forum, then it's quite reasonable for people to be dismissive of the claims

[krasher]

my question was have you read the book - which you didn't answer

i then quoted part of the book which was easier to believe - science doesn't base its views on one book written by someone with obvious bias

Fixed.

No. I read enough to get the gist. Then went on to find what other literature was around that might agree or disagree with the findings and found other literature that supported it and nothing that disagreed. Only a very short search mind you, but it is not a new topic to me, I did my research on spirituality and brushed up against much of this stuff then and the findings were the much the same.

Black Heart - if you can't see the relevance...

Sure thing woohoo, I agree. What is publicly claimed can be publicly disagreed with....it is the tone and manner in which this is done that is important. Granted, I have bitten back recently.

[GoatSlayer]

Is it wrong to be spiritual but not belong to any religious organisation? because I don't have any problem with somebody having god in their lives, I just have a problem with somebody having church in their lives

[krasher]

IMO God made man cos he wanted the company. Don't always need church to help with that as far as I can tell - sometimes it even helps to not.

[Dr Woomanchu]

Is it wrong to be spiritual but not belong to any religious organisation? because I don't have any problem with somebody having god in their lives, I just have a problem with somebody having church in their lives

I only have issues in 2 areas.

1)  When people hate others who don't share their beliefs, or their belief systems call for  intolerance of non members
2) When people who's beliefs are at variance with verifiable fact claim the data must be wrong. ( although it's noticeable that religions who believe their gods will let them fly from the top of skyscrapers are generally shortlived

[cobra]

Fixed.

No. I read enough to get the gist. Then went on to find what other literature was around that might agree or disagree with the findings and found other literature that supported it and nothing that disagreed. Only a very short search mind you, but it is not a new topic to me, I did my research on spirituality and brushed up against much of this stuff then and the findings were the much the same.

Black Heart - if you can't see the relevance...

Sure thing woohoo, I agree. What is publicly claimed can be publicly disagreed with....it is the tone and manner in which this is done that is important. Granted, I have bitten back recently.

I quoted part of the same book that indicates that perhaps a book written by someone with an obvious bias would not be the best source to form views on - if you came up with some independent peer review literature I would be happy to accept this

If making up a magical father in the sky helps you, i have not problems there, but if you try justify your hate campaigns with your space monsters or claim that made up creatures can impact on reality then i do take issue

IMO God made man cos he wanted the company.

IMO you made god cos you wanted the company

[cobra]

2) When people who's beliefs are at variance with verifiable fact claim the data must be wrong. ( although it's noticeable that religions who believe their gods will let them fly from the top of skyscrapers are generally shortlived

evidence for evolution

[Tiwaking!]

Is it wrong to be spiritual but not belong to any religious organisation? because I don't have any problem with somebody having god in their lives, I just have a problem with somebody having church in their lives

The main difference between spirituality and religion is a lack of centralization. An example:

I wish you had been around when this country was being colonised. The Maori sure could have done with someone with your reasoning.

The Maori belief system of Mauri is classed as spirituality. HOWEVER: The Religious movements of Ratana and Ringatu are not. The same can be said of Druidism and (gah) 'Wiccan'

If making up a magical father in the sky helps you, i have not problems there

Musical interlude follows
[video]GAwo-F9CpVE[/video]

[Ngati_Grim]

^ You don't demonstrate absolute ignorance very often Grim, but that last post was off the scale - specifically your statement concerning the New Life Church.

Um, Slim, I actually do know what I am talking about. I come from a family that is deeply involved in Church issues (read: Presbyterian, but also read: Christian, and liberal and concerned with human rights etc etc) and my father was involved in church politics for years (he personally knew Lloyd Geering) and was a member of the national council; and my brother is a lecturer in religious studies (specifically christianity), so I am not coming from a cold position. I have debated topics like these for years. The basic belief structure of the New Life Church is based on conservative christianity, remodelled to try to appeal to modern times. There is no way the NLC is liberal, and if you think so, then the rest of the churches must be horribly horribly conservative. It's very much like snake oil and smoke and mirrors.

[KiLL3r]

IMO you made god cos you wanted the company

:laff: the truth at last

[krasher]

I quoted part of the same book that indicates that perhaps a book written by someone with an obvious bias would not be the best source to form views on - if you came up with some independent peer review literature I would be happy to accept this

If making up a magical father in the sky helps you, i have not problems there, but if you try justify your hate campaigns with your space monsters or claim that made up creatures can impact on reality then i do take issue

IMO you made god cos you wanted the company

Sure, but do you think if they were biased that would have even put it in there? It is not the only artical on the topic, but if you were actually interested in the truth you would know that by now.

Why do you resort to being nasty. You have got a problem. There is so much more hate that comes out of your mouth that you have no place even talking about anybodys hate campains....not that they exist. You say 'your hate campaigns...' I don't have any. Your just making stuff up. Why would you do that?

:laff: the truth at last

Seems you don't need much evidence to believe something. You have more faith than I thought. Don't fancy your luck though basing what you believe on somebody as delusional as cobra.

I answered a serious question with a serious answer and had the piss taken out of it by the uneducated bigoted trolls in the thread. Don't expect me to answer any more questions.

[Ngati_Grim]

I answered a serious question with a serious answer and had the piss taken out of it by the uneducated bigoted trolls in the thread. Don't expect me to answer any more questions.

Come on, don't let others derail what is an interesting and, arguably, important discussion.

[cobra]

Why do you resort to being nasty. You have got a problem. There is so much more hate that comes out of your mouth that you have no place even talking about anybodys hate campains....not that they exist. You say 'your hate campaigns...' I don't have any. Your just making stuff up. Why would you do that?

nasty? what was so nasty? suck it up big boy - and hate? please quote the hate from what i said, you know evidence - although i guess thats not you style

'your hate campaigns' i was talking in the wider sense - you know the many christian hate campaigns - you may or may not take part in them but your cult does and you suport makes it easier

Seems you don't need much evidence to believe something. You have more faith than I thought. Don't fancy your luck though basing what you believe on somebody as delusional as cobra.

I answered a serious question with a serious answer and had the piss taken out of it by the uneducated bigoted trolls in the thread. Don't expect me to answer any more questions.

delusional? can you back this up?

uneducated? can you back this up, just how "educated" are you? - please, if you are going to turn this thread into you flinging insults at people who disagree with you at least tell us how "educated" you are

bigoted? that is some what hypocritical coming from a christian, the major issue i have with christianity is the fact that they dont believe everyone should have equal rights, i dont have any repect for you beliefs but that doesn't make me a bigot - are you just throwing around words and terms you dont understand again

[winfieldsaregoo]

well what i hate is when some bible basher comes along and trys to convert my hethen self, but if i go preaching to people the god is faluse and non exsitant its a bad thing.

and the other thing i hate is there is god worship programs on tv but no devil worship programs whats the go there.

and if there is some non belevers why donst this so called god smite the evil and save the good why because he is not real people

[spliff]

well what i hate is when some bible basher comes along and trys to convert my hethen self, but if i go preaching to people the god is faluse and non exsitant its a bad thing.

and the other thing i hate is there is god worship programs on tv but no devil worship programs whats the go there.

and if there is some non belevers why donst this so called god smite the evil and save the good why because he is not real people

Please don't make me read something so ridiculously stupid ever again. Thanks.