Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Ngati_Grim]

"clubs" where people get together and discuss their views on spirituality without all the dogma, tradition and bible shit, would prove to be a real church killer. Imagine if you could spend your sunday with a group of people, in comfortable surroundings, where you actually got a say for once, and you sit around in this group talking for a couple of hours.

Me personally i would still prefer to sleep in, but i argue that there are alot of "christians" that would prefer this to being lectured by someone with dubious qualifications

Yes, except these people would have more dubious qualifications than someone who has been theologically trained. It's a dangerous precedent when the well-meaning, but ill-informed start believing that what they preach is the 'truth' (small t) and begin to impose those views upon others who may be seeking some sort of meaning and are therefore at the mercy of those who they think they can trust, but at the end of the day all  they get are dodgy prescriptions and arm waving.
Call it a club, but it's not a church. Or maybe even more of a cult.
Christianity needs the bible, specifically the new testament. It needs an understanding of the Abrahamic god and the trinity.

[Metal-Fingerz]

i cant be bothered answering that ngati at this stage as imma bout to leave work but will get back to it, i believe you are only looking at one side of the story here!

will elaborate later....

[ThaFleastyler]

I totally agree with Krasher - my church is similar.

Yes, we run services on Sundays (at 10am and at 7pm) and run a youth service on Friday nights, but the real "work" (for want of a better word) is what we do outside those times - like small groups on Thursdays, courses run throughout the week (both for Christians and non-Christians) and community outreach programs - for example, the local school had to shut down its after school program due to a lack of funding, so the church I go to started running a program to replace it. We also run a free Christmas lunch for anyone who wants in on it - the first year it attracted 350 people (a small percentage of whom actually went to the church I go to) - in the second year it had just under 500 - in 2007, the third year, it had just over 600. So it would be fair to say the church service is a small part of what we do.

Which is what I've been trying to say all along - the typical, run-of-the-mill community church isn't dogmatic, the way the Catholic or Anglican churches are. Its a collection of free-thinking people, with a wide-range of personalities, who have questions and want to seek the answers with others. Scientific fact doesn't keep us awake at night (no matter how much fun I might have discussing/arguing it). There are churches of a particular flavour - for example, more fundamental churches - but for the most part, thats what we're like.

This is why I get so angry when people here lump me in with Mormons, or Fundamentalists, or Nazis. I've never been involved in any hate campaign, and to my knowledge neither has anyone else at my church. I've never been door-knocking to try and get people to church, and in the time I've been at my church there has never been such a program run. I've never judged against someone who was a homosexual - I'm not gay, but I that doesn't mean I hate people who are. I've never judged against a prostitute - I don't agree with that lifestyle, but that doesn't mean I hate people who do. I've never been given a set of rules to follow at my church (indeed, no set of rules exists), but I do try to be considerate in how I speak and act, same as I would in any other social situation. I've never been told that I must give money to my church, though I do give money because I want to see my church able to do more for our community - thats a personal choice. I've never been forced to do anything I didn't want to do, but I do as much as I can to help out. I've never been told off for having a different opinion, but I have discussed my opinions rationally with others who don't share them.

I feel so far away from what some of you guys think church is about, that it genuinely saddens me that some of you think its like that - so naturally I get frustrated and angry when I try to explain how it is and no-one listens, just the same as you guys got angry at Spliff when he didn't listen to you. I'm not interested in turning any of you on to church, but I at do feel like I need to correct you when you're mistaken about what church is like, because I know that it totally isn't like what you think it is.

Is it true from peoples experiences that the hard thing about churches is that for people that want the 95% that krasher is talking about they often get sucked in and end up with people trying to convert them to the 5% side of things or the church misrepresents the amount of "new age" activities/meetings?

I think the fair comment would be that people do have bad experience of church, but they shouldn't let that put them off. Different churches do things differently (obviously) so if someone was interested in being in a church of a certain type, they should look around.

For example, my church is a place where people aren't (well, shouldn't be) pressured to be involved in anything they don't want to be involved in. But there are churches that do. By the same token, we're made up of mostly young people, or we don't have a school attached to our church, or we don't run traditional bible study groups - any number of things that will mean we still don't appeal to certain people.

[Ngati_Grim]

i think you are missing the point nick has made.... yes these do exist but the idea of not having such rigid rules and idea's allows for the ability of a more relaxed atmosphere and far more comfortable,

what you state is true that does occur... history shows many incidences of this but again thats extremist behaviour.

But religion without rigid rules is not religion.
I.e. you have to believe in a god, and for the abrahamic religions, you have to have an understanding of the texts.

I don't think it's extremist behaviour. I think it's more and more common as the fundamentalist sides of religion take hold...(a sort of backlash against loose societal morals such as the prostitution reform bill, the anti child abuse bill, the homosexual law reform bill etc...I'm not against these, they are for explanation)...
...not far down the road from me is a grapevine church (I did a reccy there to see what went on...scary)where this sort of happyclappy fundamentalism is occurring, and there are many more...

...over the next few days I will sort out some information to back up my claims.

I've never judged against someone who was a homosexual or a prostitute - I don't agree with that lifestyle, but that doesn't mean I hate people who do.

What would happen if your 'pastor' (insert appropriate title here) came out, or a group of homosexuals/prostitutes decided to join?

EDIT: Strange, quoted at the same time!

[Ngati_Grim]

 I've never judged against someone who was a homosexual or a prostitute - I don't agree with that lifestyle, but that doesn't mean I hate people who do.

What would happen if your 'pastor' (insert appropriate title here) came out, or a group of homosexuals/prostitutes decided to join?

[qwerty4me]

I've never judged against someone who was a homosexual or a prostitute - I don't agree with that lifestyle, but that doesn't mean I hate people who do.

What do you mean by 'dont agree'? I won't try to put words into your mouth, but it's not something you 'agree' on.

EDIT: Strange, quoted at the same time!

[ThaFleastyler]

What do you mean by 'dont agree'? I won't try to put words into your mouth, but it's not something you 'agree' on.

I meant, in the sense of 'I don't like making out with other guys'
I can't think how else to word what I mean.

[qwerty4me]

You could of said "I'm not gay". But you said that you don't agree with the lifestyle, which means that you are directing your statement at others, not just stating a fact about yourself.

[ThaFleastyler]

You could of said "I'm not gay". But you said that you don't agree with the lifestyle, which means that you are directing your statement at others, not just stating a fact about yourself.

Well, as I say, I couldn't think how to word exactly what I meant. The statement also included me not agreeing with prostitution - is that also a problem? Its not that big a deal mate.

[Ngati_Grim]

Well, as I say, I couldn't think how to word exactly what I meant. The statement also included me not agreeing with prostitution - is that also a problem? Its not that big a deal mate.

What would happen if your 'pastor' (insert appropriate title here) came out, or a group of homosexuals/prostitutes decided to join?

[qwerty4me]

Well, as I say, I couldn't think how to word exactly what I meant. The statement also included me not agreeing with prostitution - is that also a problem? Its not that big a deal mate.

It's not a problem, just a bit strange. You chose to say "not agree" instead of "I'm not". I'm not saying it's a big/wrong thing, it just separates a christian from the rest, those sort of things.

[ThaFleastyler]

It's not a problem, just a bit strange. You chose to say "not agree" instead of "I'm not". I'm not saying it's a big/wrong thing, it just separates a christian from the rest, those sort of things.

Being articulate seperates Christians from the rest?
OK, let me rephrase it - I've edited the original:

I've never judged against someone who was a homosexual or a prostitute - I don't agree with that lifestyle, but that doesn't mean I hate people who do.

... to:
"I've never judged against someone who was a homosexual - I'm not gay, but I that doesn't mean I hate people who are. I've never judged against a prostitute - I don't agree with that lifestyle, but that doesn't mean I hate people who do."

Happy now? :ohplease:

What would happen if your 'pastor' (insert appropriate title here) came out, or a group of homosexuals/prostitutes decided to join?

I have no idea what would happen if the pastor came out. I'm not in a position to decide that kind of stuff so I'm not even going to try and guess. If it ever did happen, I'd just have to figure it out at the time. It would be weird though. Especially given how much he seems to love his wife.

If homosexuals or prostitutes joined our church, they'd be as welcome as anyone else.

[krasher]

yeah thats sounds pretty good krasher

Is it true from peoples experiences that the hard thing about churches is that for people that want the 95% that krasher is talking about they often get sucked in and end up with people trying to convert them to the 5% side of things or the church misrepresents the amount of "new age" activities/meetings?

I think that the idea of the 'church service' being 'church' is not biblical but is a very pervasive (is that the right word) and old/established idea both inside and outside of the faith. Hence, it will take a long time to change...unfortunately. But, I do think we are heading in the correct direction. I think that people (both inside and outside the 'church')need to be re educated about what the 'church' is.

I think part of the problem is the same as what we hit here...people have trouble giving people permission to think different things. So, just like its very difficult to take part in this discussion without feeling like a complete idiot for having faith, somebody in a small group of Christians might find it hard to say that they don't really believe in Jesus and his resurrection. I would be surprised if they met the same attitude as what I have been dished up here but no point taking score - its basically the same human problem...not just a Christian one...that is my point - we are all kinda dogmatic (not sure if that's the right word) by nature.

There are plenty of 'Christian' groups that are very open minded though. But you do need to be careful when looking for them...there are plenty that are not also.

But religion without rigid rules is not religion.
I.e. you have to believe in a god, and for the abrahamic religions, you have to have an understanding of the texts.
.............
.............
What would happen if your 'pastor' (insert appropriate title here) came out, or a group of homosexuals/prostitutes decided to join?
.............

Now we are getting somewhere....the difference between being a believer and being religious. Personally, I hate being called religious, because of the above mentioned connotation - it is something that I let slide here because I didn't think you(iconz) would get the difference.

I think that there are fundamentals to a faith - but its not about rigidity and rules. It's more about convictions, relationship (each other and God), and guidelines. Religion to me rings the same, but I simply don't consider myself religious, I don't do things just because its tradition or because my faith dictates that I should. I do things because I believe they are best for my and the people around me in the long term...probably not all that different from how you might think, however I might include more of the Bible and what I consider God to be saying in my decision making.

Sorry....wall of text.
edit:
To be clear....this is my experience of Christianity/church and could be and probably is quite difference from Flea's etc...don't feel like I'm putting us all in the same boat.

Oh yeah, homo's and prosti's and stuff. Personally I don't think that either of those lifestyles coincide with how we were created sexually, therefor not  the best for us. As flea said though...more than welcome as a friend, or assosiate, just a person who has made a 'choice' arguably to live in a way that I would not recommend or choose for myself. I may find out one day I am wrong about that...but that is where I am at with it at the mo.

[psyche]

That having been said I can turn this around - Metaphysics often suggests

that you might not actually exist - rather your brain just thinks you do.  This is somethign I

think is likely true.  Do some reasearch into this if you dare and see how scared you become.  

There are worse things than death.

"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration,

that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as

death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.

Here's Tom with the weather."

there's only one thing I can think of that would be more frightening to me than complete

non-existence, and that would be if you somehow became trapped in your own consciousness upon death

or something. Like, the brain dies, but you're just stuck in your consciousness for eternity,

considering scientists don't know everything about the human consciousness it could indeed be a

possibility..

but yeah you can say that if you cease to exist upon death, it wouldn't matter or it wouldn't be

frightening because you wouldn't exist to experience such thoughts/emotions or whatever, and as

some say: You came from nothing, you will go back to nothing. Still scares the everloving shit out

of me and I just don't want to consider it, naive perhaps but I don't care

I will teach any kids I have logic, along with my values, the rest is for

them to figure out.  Please stop saying "I obviously" don't know this or that, it's quite

untrue - and a little unfair seeing as you don't engage any of the arguments put to you - rather

you dismiss them out of hand.  As Cobra said, I'm not an undecided on the issue of invisible

Giraffe's, nor on God, nor on the idea of being resurrected.

Ressurection? :sly: Are you sure you don't mean reincarnation? If that's what you meant, how

do you think that would work? I had this thought the other night, what if when you die.. your

consciousness, or your soul or whatever you want to call it (maybe even 'energy' would be the right

word) might transfer to someone giving conception in the nearest proximity... or something... seems

stupid now that I think about but it seemed like a credible idea at the time :chuckle:

Why do you guys keep mentioning the 'invisible ' here, it's getting a bit

ridiculous how many times you bring it up. In talking about 'God' we are talking about a completely

different concept to any kind of invisible animal or something, can you not understand that? It

seems like a very poor argument to use, a cop-out if you will..

Sorry but 'it just happened' is close to magic.  You're misapplying

Occam's Razor by just inventing an explanation that isn't implied, and saying it's simpler.  Again

it isn't logical, it's A) kind of fantastical and B) not implied by anything.

Erm, isn't that what you're arguing, that it all just happened due to some inexplicable

occurance of complete random chance, or...?

So would I, but I'd much rather die being self-honest.

Why, would it matter?

Scientifically, it has.  If you want to please explain what parts

haven't.

From what I understand scientists have to explain how or why the very first cell made up of RNA

done whatever the hell it done to evolve amd become all life as we know it? I'm sure there are many

aspects of evolution that are yet to be proven beyond certainty.

im a scientist (well BSc Physics), are you? if not then stop asking people if

they are scientists

'Grats. I was referring to Kill3r, not you, because I already know he's not a qualified scientist.

you seem confused about the whole universe thing[/QUOTE]

I think I have a reasonably good grasp on it.

you seem confused about science

You must have missed this post:

Yeah I am interested in science, but I'm not so interested in that I go out of my way

to learn everything about it, life is short so what's the point in wasting my life learning

everything about science when ultimately it would be pointless to do so? there are more important

things in life. I personally find spirituality to be more important than science.

are you sure your not a christian?

Negative. Not yet anyway, I have yet to read the bible or do any deep research into religion, who

knows when I do I might yet still be converted If the Christian God was indeed the one true God

I would probably rather take that chance then not believing in anything at all before I die, ya

know? What have I got to lose?

[psyche]

Anyone else think this thread could probably do with it's own subforum? It's a bit difficult trying to follow multiple arguments about multiple topics when it's all crammed into one gigantic thread.

One thread can't really encompass so many different subjects to discuss without getting confusing (especially when the thread is called religion VS science, which is stupid)

anyone think it would be a good idea or nah?

[psyche]

That having been said I can turn this around - Metaphysics often suggests that you might not actually exist - rather your brain just thinks you do.  This is somethign I think is likely true.  Do some reasearch into this if you dare and see how scared you become.  

There are worse things than death.

"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.

Here's Tom with the weather."

there's only one thing I can think of that would be more frightening to me than complete non-existence, and that would be if you somehow became trapped in your own consciousness upon death or something. Like, the brain dies, but you're just stuck in your consciousness for eternity, considering scientists don't know everything about the human consciousness it could indeed be a possibility.. but yeah you can say that if you cease to exist upon death, it wouldn't matter or it wouldn't be frightening because you wouldn't exist to experience such thoughts/emotions or whatever, and as some say: You came from nothing, you will go back to nothing. Still scares the everloving shit out of me and I just don't want to consider it, naive perhaps but I don't care

I will teach any kids I have logic, along with my values, the rest is for them to figure out.  Please stop saying "I obviously" don't know this or that, it's quite untrue - and a little unfair seeing as you don't engage any of the arguments put to you - rather you dismiss them out of hand.  As Cobra said, I'm not an undecided on the issue of invisible Giraffe's, nor on God, nor on the idea of being resurrected.

Ressurection? :sly: Are you sure you don't mean reincarnation? If that's what you meant, how do you think that would work? I had this thought the other night, what if when you die.. your consciousness, or your soul or whatever you want to call it (maybe even 'energy' would be the right word) might transfer to someone giving conception in the nearest proximity... or something... seems kinda stupid now that I think about but it seemed like a credible idea at the time :chuckle:

Why do you guys keep mentioning the 'invisible ' here, it's getting a bit ridiculous how many times you bring it up. In talking about 'God' we are talking about a completely different concept to any kind of invisible animal or something, can you not understand that? It seems like a very poor argument to use, a cop-out if you will..

Sorry but 'it just happened' is close to magic.  You're misapplying Occam's Razor by just inventing an explanation that isn't implied, and saying it's simpler. Again
it isn't logical, it's A) kind of fantastical and B) not implied by anything.

Erm, isn't that what you're arguing, that it all just happened due to some inexplicable occurance of complete random chance, or...? Occam's Razor, sounds like a magic spell out of D&D..

So would I, but I'd much rather die being self-honest.

Why, what would it matter?

Scientifically, it has.  If you want to please explain what parts haven't.

From what I understand scientists have to explain how or why the very first cell made up of RNA done whatever the hell it done to evolve amd become all life as we know it? I'm sure there are many aspects of evolution that are yet to be proven beyond certainty.

im a scientist (well BSc Physics), are you? if not then stop asking people if they are scientists

'Grats. I was referring to Kill3r, not you, because I already know he's not a qualified scientist. How is it any different to asking someone if they are religious or whatever?

you seem confused about the whole universe thing

I think I have a reasonably good grasp on it.

you seem confused about science

You must have missed this post:

Yeah I am interested in science, but I'm not so interested in that I go out of my way to learn everything about it, life is short so what's the point in wasting my life learning everything about science when ultimately it would be pointless to do so? there are more important things in life. I personally find spirituality to be more important than science.

are you sure your not a christian?

Negative. Not yet anyway, I have yet to read the bible or do any deep research into religion, who knows when I do I might yet still be converted If the Christian God was indeed the one true God I would probably rather take that chance than not believing in anything at all before I die, ya

know? What have I got to lose?

[psyche]

sorry to move away from the religion discussion for a moment but..

That having been said I can turn this around - Metaphysics often suggests that you might not actually exist - rather your brain just thinks you do.  This is somethign I think is likely true.  Do some reasearch into this if you dare and see how scared you become.  

There are worse things than death.

"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.

Here's Tom with the weather." - Bill Hicks

there's only one thing I can think of that would be more frightening to me than complete non-existence, and that would be if you somehow became trapped in your own consciousness upon death or something. Like, the brain dies, but you're just stuck in your consciousness for eternity, considering scientists don't know everything about the human consciousness it could indeed be a possibility.. but yeah you can say that if you cease to exist upon death, it wouldn't matter or it wouldn't be frightening because you wouldn't exist to experience such thoughts/emotions or whatever, and as some say: You came from nothing, you will go back to nothing. Still scares the everloving shit out of me and I just don't want to consider it, naive perhaps but I don't care

I will teach any kids I have logic, along with my values, the rest is for them to figure out.  Please stop saying "I obviously" don't know this or that, it's quite untrue - and a little unfair seeing as you don't engage any of the arguments put to you - rather you dismiss them out of hand.  As Cobra said, I'm not an undecided on the issue of invisible Giraffe's, nor on God, nor on the idea of being resurrected.

Ressurection? :sly: Are you sure you don't mean reincarnation? If that's what you meant, how do you think that would work? I had this thought the other night, what if when you die.. your consciousness, or your soul or whatever you want to call it (maybe even 'energy' would be the right word) might transfer to someone giving conception in the nearest proximity... or something... seems kinda stupid now that I think about but it seemed like a credible idea at the time :chuckle:

Why do you guys keep mentioning the 'invisible ' here, it's getting a bit ridiculous how many times you bring it up. In talking about 'God' we are talking about a completely different concept to any kind of invisible animal or something, can you not understand that? It seems like a very poor argument to use, a cop-out if you will..

Sorry but 'it just happened' is close to magic.  You're misapplying Occam's Razor by just inventing an explanation that isn't implied, and saying it's simpler. Again
it isn't logical, it's A) kind of fantastical and B) not implied by anything.

Erm, isn't that what you're arguing, that it all just happened due to some inexplicable occurance of complete random chance, or...?

Occam's Razor, sounds like a magic spell out of D&D..

So would I, but I'd much rather die being self-honest.

Why, what would it matter?

Scientifically, it has.  If you want to please explain what parts haven't.

From what I understand scientists have yet to explain how or why the very first cell made up of RNA done whatever the hell it done to evolve and become all life as we know it? (abiogensis)
I'm sure there are many aspects of evolution that are yet to be proven beyond certainty.

im a scientist (well BSc Physics), are you? if not then stop asking people if they are scientists

'Grats. I was referring to Kill3r, not you, because I already know he's not a qualified scientist. How is it any different to asking someone if they are religious or whatever?

you seem confused about the whole universe thing

I think I have a reasonably good grasp on it.

you seem confused about science

You must have missed this post:

Yeah I am interested in science, but I'm not so interested in that I go out of my way to learn everything about it, life is short so what's the point in wasting my life learning everything about science when ultimately it would be pointless to do so? there are more important things in life. I personally find spirituality to be more important than science.

are you sure your not a christian?

Negative. Not yet anyway, I have yet to read the bible or do any deep research into religion, who knows when I do I might yet still be converted If the Christian God was indeed the one true God I would probably rather take that chance than not believing in anything at all before I die, ya know? What have I got to lose?

[qwerty4me]

What have I got to lose?

Your freedom (to say that you are your own man), your pride (as all christians say, man is from conception an evil, sinful person, who needs forgiving for crimes he has not committed), and any feeling of self-accomplishment in your life (you are merely a mortal, your work is god's will).

If you think these sound like good things in a philosophy, then by all means try religion. I, personally, would reccomend a philosophy which recognizes the greatness of mankind, individual liberty, and the ability of man to feel pride in his accomplishments.

[krasher]

Your freedom (to say that you are your own man), your pride (as all christians say, man is from conception an evil, sinful person, who needs forgiving for crimes he has not committed), and any feeling of self-accomplishment in your life (you are merely a mortal, your work is god's will).

AS ALL CHRISTIANS SAY. Look who knows so much. Don't be surprised if you get ignored if you come in here with that attitude. YOU CANNOT KNOW WHAT ALL CHRISTIANS THINK/SAY.

Get it?

[Tiwaking!]

Now we are getting somewhere....the difference between being a believer and being religious. Personally, I hate being called religious, because of the above mentioned connotation - it is something that I let slide here because I didn't think you(iconz) would get the difference

Then this makes you a DEIST not a THEIST. You believe in A divinity, but not a specific one. This distinction is very important when trying to discuss matters of faith with others

there's only one thing I can think of that would be more frightening to me than complete non-existence, and that would be if you somehow became trapped in your own consciousness upon death or something. Like, the brain dies, but you're just stuck in your consciousness for eternity

As is described in Dantes "Inferno"

Occam's Razor, sounds like a magic spell out of D&D..

AD&D actually. It automatically slays people who fail their save vs logic

From what I understand scientists have to explain how or why the very first cell made up of RNA done whatever the hell it done to evolve amd become all life as we know it? I'm sure there are many aspects of evolution that are yet to be proven beyond certainty.

Well if you have a spare 30 million years then all will be proven!

Negative. Not yet anyway, I have yet to read the bible or do any deep research into religion, who knows when I do I might yet still be converted If the Christian God was indeed the one true God I would probably rather take that chance than not believing in anything at all before I die, ya know? What have I got to lose?

Atheists call this "Pascals Wager". What do you have to lose? Easy. Your soul. Why? Because if Islam, Jehovahs Witnesses or Exclusive Brethren are right: You lose.

A post about what Christianity SHOULD be about

Saint Francis of Assisi once said "Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words"

[krasher]

I didn't say I didn't believe in a particular God.

More black and white thinking. "If you're not this then you're this...." It's a problem. If you can only use the boxes you have and I don't fit in any of them then what...

[Arnifix]

AD&D actually. It automatically slays people who fail their save vs logic

you're such a dick

[cobra]

AD&D actually. It automatically slays people who fail their save vs logic

im am ashamed that i loled

Oh yeah, homo's and prosti's and stuff. Personally I don't think that either of those lifestyles coincide with how we were created sexually, therefor not  the best for us.

"created" - so god created homosexual that have to repress there sexuality or spend an eternity burning? nice one god - can a christian explain how this fits into the whole god not being a cunt thing? because this makes god sound kinda crazy

once again, if there is a god then i dont want any part of his crazy games

As flea said though...more than welcome as a friend, or assosiate, just a person who has made a 'choice' arguably to live in a way that I would not recommend or choose for myself. I may find out one day I am wrong about that...but that is where I am at with it at the mo.

"choice" is a word i find offensive when it comes to discussing homosexuality - sure people have a "choice" who they sleep with but not who they are attracted to

I've never been involved in any hate campaign, and to my knowledge neither has anyone else at my church.

so you never signed a petition try to stop same sex couples getting equal rights? the people i know who go to church did

Firstly, I'm not joyless - I'm just sick of your shit.
Secondly, I'm going to call a spade a spade, so if your post is bullshit, I'll call it bullshit.

so full of hate............ it was part of a discussion with spliff with valid points in it, perhaps you should turn the other cheek or eye for an eye or something - but if you do think my post are "bullshit" could you at least try and discuss it more eloquently and using more constructive language and i will at least try and address the issues you have, like i said, it was a joke, playing on the fact his ignorant comments about science are similar to the ignorant comments the christians have posted in the past

My brothers wife is quite catholic, church every sunday, and always has been she interprets Catholiscism in a way that makes her a better person (she is one of the nicest people i know) but also believes in Science and understands there are parts of the bible which can be only interpreted metaphorically (she is a forensic scientist so obviously she strongly believes in science too) so the two can co-exist

you dont think she would be as good a person with out religion? she wouldn't be as nice a person with out church? - i find that weird and scary, is she just acting good from fear of repercussion from god?

religion if exercised in the right manner has some very good ideals in it but if exercised in the wrong fashion can create horrible things and social ineptness.

but you dont need religion for good ideals, the good people i know who go to church are still good, the cunts i know who go to church become bigger cunts as they feel the have Space Merlin behind them

[cobra]

An interesting vid

Atheist statistics 2008

http://video.stumbleupon.com/#p=umpc7g7x8r

that was interesting, i guess if there is a god he loves atheists

[Wandarah]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/04/wteapot104.xml