Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[KiLL3r]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/04/wteapot104.xml

good example of why religious leaders should never be in charge of anything

[krasher]

That is the point God didn't make them that way. Otherwise that would be stupid. I don't see how can miss such and obvious option. Well, I can actually but I still keep thinking that you are not that blind/stupid.

Surely it is not that hard to consider that if God made people, and he then says that homosexuality is not how its meant to be, then he probably didn't make us with that as a natural tendency.

The reason that I put choice as 'choice' is because it isn't really the correct word. Sexuality is more about subconscious erotic awakenings than about choice. However, choice still plays a role and we are still responsible for our selves. ie - just because a rapist/pedo 'chooses' that way to express his/her sexuality doesn't mean its right - even if it is natural/preferred for them - it is more that that is the way that their sexuality is awakened.

Unfortunately if we close the door on the idea of a shapable sexuality we close the door on the idea that it is possible to rehabilitate sexual predators.

I can't help but wonder/fear if we might one day go down the track of legalising some of the above mentioned's because 'science' decided is is un pc to make illigal something that is natural. Where do you draw the line? In history - Religion has played a useful role in maintaining moral guidelines when nothing else has been there to stand firm.

You might call it backward, but one day we will turn round and look at our past and say, why did we throw morality out the window. Then maybe start copying America in its lame attempt to make things right again, and start teaching morals/values in school. Unfortunately it doesn't appear to be working. I have already quoted my research on that.

Interesting artical that I found the other day.


From the book My Genes Made Me Do it - a scientific look at sexual orientation by Dr Neil

Whitehead and Briar Whitehead. Please use with acknowledgement. See http://www.mygenes.co.nz

Summary
There is abundant documentation that homosexuals can move toward a heterosexual orientation, often with therapeutic assistance, but surprisingly often without it. Obviously, sexual orientation is fluid, not fixed, so it
is impossible to argue it is genetically pre-determined. There seems a good possibility that various degrees of change may happen with the right support including therapy of various kinds. The problem in the present hostile social climate may be finding such support.

I find the sexuality topic very difficult/sensitive. I mean no offence, but when confronted with the evidence, I don't' think it is natural. However, I imagine this is a really difficult thing to hear if you consider yourself gay - so please know that I don't say it in judgement, just sharing the way that I view the world. I may find out one day that I got it all wrong, or I might not. It's just where I am at right now.

[krasher]

good example of why religious leaders should never be in charge of anything

You can't tell the difference between one religion and the other - that is the reason you should never be in charge of anything. Learn to separate ideas in your head...life will make more sense.

[Metal-Fingerz]

as to reply to your comments cobez

cobez said:
"you dont think she would be as good a person with out religion? she wouldn't be as nice a person with out church? - i find that weird and scary, is she just acting good from fear of repercussion from god?"

she would have still be a lovely person yes, a persons nature is based on many external factors, im just suggesting that religion is something that does instill good morals if looked at in the right light, i am sure she wouldnt be the same person and yes her good nature would always be there, but again external factors, if she was born into a family where the mum was cooking dope in the kitchen and the dad beat the crap outta here and the uncle touched her. well then i am sure that good nature will be masked....

acting in repercussion from god no, being nice because she is happy knowing she makes other people happy, more so.

cobes said:
"but you dont need religion for good ideals, the good people i know who go to church are still good, the cunts i know who go to church become bigger cunts as they feel the have Space Merlin behind them"

of course not but it is a way of teaching or learning good ideals / morals / practices and giving hope / faith, by no means am i saying you must be religious, as stated i am not and still consider myself a good person (most of the time)

too early to think

[Metal-Fingerz]

question for krasher.

"That is the point God didn't make them that way."

is your religion the only religion that is correct? and do you believe and your god the only god?

just curious as to your thoughts.

[DDM]

Who decides which parts of the bible are to be interpreted as literal and which are metaphorical?

I've seen a lot of "Oh thats not meant to be taken literally, but this other part over here is!"

Serious question btw, i want to know how you/your religion decide which parts of the bible to take literally... and if when they were written they were meant to be taken literally.

[KiLL3r]

You can't tell the difference between one religion and the other - that is the reason you should never be in charge of anything. Learn to separate ideas in your head...life will make more sense.

No, no one who puts their religous beliefs first should ever be in charge of a country.

[Ngati_Grim]

I can't help but wonder/fear if we might one day go down the track of legalising some of the above mentioned's because 'science' decided is is un pc to make illigal something that is natural. Where do you draw the line?

Science does have ethics, you know.

 

In history - Religion has played a useful role in maintaining moral guidelines when nothing else has been there to stand firm.

Read: The Devils of Loudon by Alduous Huxley
Plus, they are only the moral guidelines of the religious.
What about the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Witch hunts, the persecution of the Jews, Slavery?

From the book My Genes Made Me Do it - a scientific look at sexual orientation by Dr Neil

Craving for Love pp320

By Briar Whitehead

Homosexuality is one of the clearest expressions of our tendency to make someone else our All-in-All in the search for love.

Craving for Love looks at the origins of homosexuality - and some of the malaise in heterosexual relationships - and suggests ways in which the needs creating and propping up these addictive relationships can be met, with, in the case of homosexuality, clear changes in sexual orientation.

A compassionate and powerful book which demonstrates that God is our helper in the process of healing.

 This is from another book by one of the authors. It seems they're not scientifically objective after all and may have an agenda to push?

http://www.spiritedexchanges.org.nz/store/doc/issue%2033.pdf

Many people with same-sex attraction are driven out of
the faith, or over to accepting churches because of the
rejection they experience in conservative churches. The
conservative church (and I speak in stereotypes) badly
needs to understand that homosexuality smells no
worse to God than a great many other heterosexual sins
and shortcomings. The Romans 1 list makes that point,
and other New Testament mentions of homosexuality
merely place it in the context of other sins. In the Old
Testament an adjective commonly used to describe
homosexuality is also used of many other things,
including – wait for it – love of money, greed for gain,
failure to keep promises, pride and haughtiness, deceit
and lying, thoughts of harm to another, partiality,
meaningless and hypocritical prayers – all of which
heterosexual Christians do on a fairly regular basis.

That was by Briar Whitehead, in an article in the above link, so I think there is a conflict of interests there.
 As a Scientific Humanist (Atheist) I feel a need to stand up against social injustices, such as the (mainstream) treatment of homosexual by christianity (amongst other religions).

I find the sexuality topic very difficult/sensitive. I mean no offence, but when confronted with the evidence, I don't' think it is natural. However, I imagine this is a really difficult thing to hear if you consider yourself gay - so please know that I don't say it in judgement, just sharing the way that I view the world. I may find out one day that I got it all wrong, or I might not. It's just where I am at right now.

Thanks for trying, at least!
Could you define 'natural'?

acting in repercussion from god no, being nice because she is happy knowing she makes other people happy, more so.

I have no problem with this.

Who decides which parts of the bible are to be interpreted as literal and which are metaphorical?
.

Check out this link:http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/MYFormationofNEWTestamentv2.htm

  or this (though slightly biased language, the essence is factual) http://exchristian.net/letters/2004/01/between-lines.php

[Tiwaking!]

Deism nurtures the inherent mysticism/wonder of life by pointing to the interconnectedness of things irregardless of dogmatic teachings.

I didn't say I didn't believe in a particular God.

More black and white thinking. "If you're not this then you're this...." It's a problem. If you can only use the boxes you have and I don't fit in any of them then what...

Atheism rolls dice using reality as its guide
Theism rolls dice using nature as its guide
Since nature is subjective and created by people
Theism rolls people using dice as its guide

[Metal-Fingerz]

Who decides which parts of the bible are to be interpreted as literal and which are metaphorical?

I've seen a lot of "Oh thats not meant to be taken literally, but this other part over here is!"

Serious question btw, i want to know how you/your religion decide which parts of the bible to take literally... and if when they were written they were meant to be taken literally.

logic and common sense....some things science discredits religion and if you take them in a literal sense they are not feasibly possible

[Tiwaking!]

question for krasher.

"That is the point God didn't make them that way."

is your religion the only religion that is correct? and do you believe and your god the only god?

just curious as to your thoughts.

I dont ask people what their religious beliefs are. Worst thing about this thread is how all those who tabled their beliefs get sniped out constantly, though....some DID deserve it.

Serious question btw, i want to know how you/your religion decide which parts of the bible to take literally... and if when they were written they were meant to be taken literally.

Actually: "Which BIBLE is right?" is the question people should ask but dont get an oppurtunity to

Could you define 'natural'?

'Found in Nature by Natural Causes'

Unfortunately, without a complete and comprehensive guide to what can and cannot be found in nature nothing can be defined as 'natural'

Unless the God of Gaps manipulates things behind the scenes

[krasher]

question for krasher.

"That is the point God didn't make them that way."

is your religion the only religion that is correct? and do you believe and your god the only god?

just curious as to your thoughts.

I think that the God of Abraham created the earth and us - not any other God. So, yes, but I don't think that the Christian religion has interpreted it all correctly - in fact I know it has not got it all right! That are other things that are made to be god's but none as awesome. You might say that is arrogant, but I don't think that is reflected in my attitude here. You are asking quite personal questions here and I am giving personal answers. I would appreciate that my beliefs are treated respectfully.

Who decides which parts of the bible are to be interpreted as literal and which are metaphorical?

I've seen a lot of "Oh thats not meant to be taken literally, but this other part over here is!"

Serious question btw, i want to know how you/your religion decide which parts of the bible to take literally... and if when they were written they were meant to be taken literally.

Good question. Too hard to answer in depth here. A book called 'how to read the bible for all its worth' is a good start. Flea and I have both at various times in this thread tried explaining it but it usually gets dismissed or ignored so I am over it. It is a difficult but extremely important skill and topic. It is not an exactly science, and needs to be treated as such - as in - you cannot be absolutely certain of the intent of a scripture so don't place too much weight on it. Yes, I am that open minded. I study and teach epistemology and there are other factors that also come into the search for truth in scripture other than just the scripture itself.

Yes the artical will be biased. Like any artical. Don't fool yourself into thinking that science is more objective. It is not. It is impossible to be entirely objective as we are subjective beings. That is why your epistemology needs to be broad and intentional. All in my humble opinion of course.

[Black Heart]

it doesn't cease to amuse me where when asking about the nature of god,"why did god kill my 2 month old baby." we get god works in mysterious ways, or man cannot grasp gods nature/plan.

Yet the rest of the time all the religious do is go on about what god intends/intended.

Why don't you self righteous clowns just admit your religion no matter how much history it has, is flawed, and therefore can't be the teachings of a infallible god.

[krasher]

it doesn't cease to amuse me where when asking about the nature of god,"why did god kill my 2 month old baby." we get god works in mysterious ways, or man cannot grasp gods nature/plan.

Yet the rest of the time all the religious do is go on about what god intends/intended.

Why don't you self righteous clowns just admit your religion no matter how much history it has, is flawed, and therefore can't be the teachings of a infallible god.

Those are not the only options. Who said God orchestrates everything? That is not what I have learnt from scripture of my Christian experiences. It is certainly not what I believe or I would no longer have my faith.

Piss off with your last comment.

[Metal-Fingerz]

I think that the God of Abraham created the earth and us - not any other God. So, yes, but I don't think that the Christian religion has interpreted it all correctly - in fact I know it has not got it all right! That are other things that are made to be god's but none as awesome. You might say that is arrogant, but I don't think that is reflected in my attitude here. You are asking quite personal questions here and I am giving personal answers. I would appreciate that my beliefs are treated respectfully.

Not at all arrogant my friend, your thoughts are yours freely, na appreciate the answer was just curious as to how you see it, im not here to judge or dissprove someone's ideas and beliefs +1 krasher once again :bounce

[Metal-Fingerz]

it doesn't cease to amuse me where when asking about the nature of god,"why did god kill my 2 month old baby." we get god works in mysterious ways, or man cannot grasp gods nature/plan.

Yet the rest of the time all the religious do is go on about what god intends/intended.

Why don't you self righteous clowns just admit your religion no matter how much history it has, is flawed, and therefore can't be the teachings of a infallible god.

fuck that last comment is fail, just really a poor post.
secondly historically the older something is the more likely it is to be inaccurate it will be and have flaws in it
thirdly dont stereotype as if you know every single religion or religous person out there...

[Dr Woomanchu]

That is the point God didn't make them that way. Otherwise that would be stupid. I don't see how can miss such and obvious option. Well, I can actually but I still keep thinking that you are not that blind/stupid.

Surely it is not that hard to consider that if God made people, and he then says that homosexuality is not how its meant to be, then he probably didn't make us with that as a natural tendency.

The reason that I put choice as 'choice' is because it isn't really the correct word. Sexuality is more about subconscious erotic awakenings than about choice. However, choice still plays a role and we are still responsible for our selves. ie - just because a rapist/pedo 'chooses' that way to express his/her sexuality doesn't mean its right - even if it is natural/preferred for them - it is more that that is the way that their sexuality is awakened.

Unfortunately if we close the door on the idea of a shapable sexuality we close the door on the idea that it is possible to rehabilitate sexual predators.

I can't help but wonder/fear if we might one day go down the track of legalising some of the above mentioned's because 'science' decided is is un pc to make illigal something that is natural. Where do you draw the line? In history - Religion has played a useful role in maintaining moral guidelines when nothing else has been there to stand firm.

You might call it backward, but one day we will turn round and look at our past and say, why did we throw morality out the window. Then maybe start copying America in its lame attempt to make things right again, and start teaching morals/values in school. Unfortunately it doesn't appear to be working. I have already quoted my research on that.

Interesting artical that I found the other day.


From the book My Genes Made Me Do it - a scientific look at sexual orientation by Dr Neil

Whitehead and Briar Whitehead. Please use with acknowledgement. See http://www.mygenes.co.nz

Summary
There is abundant documentation that homosexuals can move toward a heterosexual orientation, often with therapeutic assistance, but surprisingly often without it. Obviously, sexual orientation is fluid, not fixed, so it
is impossible to argue it is genetically pre-determined. There seems a good possibility that various degrees of change may happen with the right support including therapy of various kinds. The problem in the present hostile social climate may be finding such support.

I find the sexuality topic very difficult/sensitive. I mean no offence, but when confronted with the evidence, I don't' think it is natural. However, I imagine this is a really difficult thing to hear if you consider yourself gay - so please know that I don't say it in judgement, just sharing the way that I view the world. I may find out one day that I got it all wrong, or I might not. It's just where I am at right now.

I know you'll find this offensive krasher, but that's how it is.

This post illustrates perfectly the problems I have with religion. reality doesn't fit the BULLSHIT you've been fed since a kid so reality has to go.  

BTW mean no offense all you want, your believes are sick and repugnant in this area.

[Black Heart]

krasher, this attitude towards homosexuality you have, you've spoken as though you know gods intentions, when we were created. the bible tells us his ways are beyond our understanding.

Therefore what your saying is just a conclusion you've jumped to, nothing more than a theory... a totally untestable one with no evidence to support it. which is essentially why humanity by and large ignores it.

Metal fingers, do you know how many people have been fed those hollow words?

How about we look at youth suicide, and see if anybody whose gay has committed suicide because of the added pressure religion put on them ?

I couldn't care any less how offended you get about my posts when religions continue to push on with the attitudes they have, that result in nothing but misery for some, with an ill conceived notion they are doing right, because they've read a book, made a conclusion and are sticking with it no matter what it does to people.

[ThaFleastyler]

I know you'll find this offensive krasher, but that's how it is.

This post illustrates perfectly the problems I have with religion. reality doesn't fit the BULLSHIT you've been fed since a kid so reality has to go.  

BTW mean no offense all you want, your believes are sick and repugnant in this area.

Thats awesome - dismiss any evidence at all that might support a viewpoint held by a religious person :disappoin

I think the single thing that shows that homosexuality is not normal is this: sex is a means of procreation, and our emotions lead us to a partner that we can procreate with. Homosexuals cannot procreate.

That said, I don't know that homosexuality is as easy as a switch you can turn off and on. Frankly, its not my problem.

[Black Heart]

Thats awesome - dismiss any evidence at all that might support a viewpoint held by a religious person :disappoin

I think the single thing that shows that homosexuality is not normal is this: sex is a means of procreation, and our emotions lead us to a partner that we can procreate with. Homosexuals cannot procreate.

That said, I don't know that homosexuality is as easy as a switch you can turn off and on. Frankly, its not my problem.

so you find your partner is sterile, accordingly it's 'normal' to find a new one.

...riiight.

[philo-sofa]

Krasher has stated his opinions are personal, and they're obviously not without thought, so I'm inclined to be respectful towards them, no matter how strongly I disagree.

That having been said, the idea that a heterosexual person would make a 'choice' to speel with the same sex seems bizzare to me.  I certainly accept some fludity in sexuality, but on a simple level I just wouldn't want to go sleep with another guy.  My experience of homosexuality is that the same is true in reverse.  So again, the whole idea of it being a choice seems rather strange and baseless to me.

[Black Heart]

well as far as i'm concerned, being respectful, will most likely be misconstrued as supporting his maniacal thoughts. besides they're christians, I could be sent by god to test if they are following the principals of forgiveness, liek jesus wants. bible says your going to hell... losers.

[KiLL3r]

queers are alot like religous people in a way. They try to push their queer beliefs on us in the same way religion does. Albiet in a more colourful way.

[Metal-Fingerz]

krasher, this attitude towards homosexuality you have, you've spoken as though you know gods intentions, when we were created. the bible tells us his ways are beyond our understanding.

Therefore what your saying is just a conclusion you've jumped to, nothing more than a theory... a totally untestable one with no evidence to support it. which is essentially why humanity by and large ignores it.

Metal fingers, do you know how many people have been fed those hollow words?

How about we look at youth suicide, and see if anybody whose gay has committed suicide because of the added pressure religion put on them ?

I couldn't care any less how offended you get about my posts when religions continue to push on with the attitudes they have, that result in nothing but misery for some, with an ill conceived notion they are doing right, because they've read a book, made a conclusion and are sticking with it no matter what it does to people.

thank you thats a far more constructive post! haha good post!
i dont find your posts offensive, i get just as annoyed as u blackheart when someone tries to push their agenda on me i will choose my own idea's thank you esp when its religion being pushed on me, what people choose to believe in is fine with me as long as it does not impede on my life

 if religion was abolished war would become nearly non-existent ( yes people will still wage war just due to humans natural instict to be superior) or at least a lot of wars would have to be founded for reasons other than religion.

i agree its awful say if you were to be born homosexual in a christian family... and the fact is you are born into christianity its not a given choice and quite commonly in family
look at Hindu's and Muslims etc which are still quite rigid religions if you dont follow the ways you get kicked out the family.... religion before family is a disgusting thought.

and yea im with philo.... i agree with his post. Krasher has expressed how he feels about it i may not agree but he is not pushing any agenda's or beliefs on me just expressing hit thoughts on it  which i am enjoying hearing even if i am not of the same idealogical ways(sorry Krasher if people are giving you shit cos i asked some question's which you have given you personal thoughts on)

[philo-sofa]

well as far as i'm concerned, being respectful, will most likely be misconstrued as supporting his maniacal thoughts. besides they're christians, I could be sent by god to test if they are following the principals of forgiveness, liek jesus wants. bible says your going to hell... losers.

So logically everyone should tell essentially everyone else to go fuck themselves on a regular basis, just in case polite disagreement is misunderstood?  Do we want a whole world of Godless Infidels (pun honestly not intended)?

queers are alot like religous people in a way. They try to push their queer beliefs on us in the same way religion does. Albiet in a more colourful way.

......  Tolerant.