Topic: Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

Offline cobra

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Quote from: psyche;672459
what's also interesting is if you answer Yes or No to #1 your answer is based entirely on your own personal belief, or faith, since it cannot be proven either way


read back on my earlier posts, you cannot prove things dont exist, even things that dont exist, so saying you can't prove god doesn't exist is meaningless

If things either have an impact on reality or they dont, things that do there is evidence for this, there is no evidence that god has impact on reality so either there is no god or there is a god that doesnt impact on anything, why care if there is a god that cannot effect things as that is exactly the same as no god

Reply #4575 Posted: March 09, 2008, 01:44:06 am

Offline krasher

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Quote from: cobra;672784
read back on my earlier posts, you cannot prove things dont exist, even things that dont exist, so saying you can't prove god doesn't exist is meaningless

If things either have an impact on reality or they dont, things that do there is evidence for this, there is no evidence that god has impact on reality so either there is no god or there is a god that doesnt impact on anything, why care if there is a god that cannot effect things as that is exactly the same as no god

Proof is via interpreted evidence. Your interpretation of the evidence suggests to you that there is no God.

For me, religion (separate from faith) is evidence to me that there is a God - or at least a supernatural being.

There are plenty of other examples of things that I interpret as being evidence of a God. But my point is that it is about the interpretation of the evidence. Subjective. So somebody with an agenda will likely establish their agenda. However, somebody saying that research conducted by a Christian is void is like me saying that research conducted by an atheist is void. IMO the truth lies in the fact that research is about interpretation of data therefore is always subjective...there is heaps of research on this topic also. :)

Reply #4576 Posted: March 09, 2008, 08:52:15 am
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Offline Arnifix

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Quote from: krasher;672847
For me, religion (separate from faith) is evidence to me that there is a God - or at least a supernatural being.


You must have a lot of faith to beg the question in this manner and expect anyone to take you seriously.

Reply #4577 Posted: March 09, 2008, 09:48:00 am

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Offline krasher

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Quote from: Arnifix;672877
You must have a lot of faith to beg the question in this manner and expect anyone to take you seriously.

There is nothing you can say that will take away the experiences that I have had that are the foundation for my faith.

That was just an example.

Reply #4578 Posted: March 09, 2008, 09:59:51 am
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Offline Tiwaking!

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Quote from: krasher;672847
Proof is via interpreted evidence. Your interpretation of the evidence suggests to you that there is no God.

Actually a key factor in evidence against a God is the simple fact that there are people who dont believe in any Gods.

Either there is a flaw in the system or the flaw is the system

Reply #4579 Posted: March 09, 2008, 10:00:13 am
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Offline Arnifix

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Quote from: krasher;672880
There is nothing you can say that will take away the experiences that I have had that are the foundation for my faith.

That was just an example.


Did you miss the part where I was implying that you are using a logical fallacy as evidence? I'm not trying to take away your experiences (why would I want them?), just point out that (in the context of this discussion) they mean shit all.

Reply #4580 Posted: March 09, 2008, 10:06:35 am

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Offline krasher

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My point was about the subjective nature of all/most research/evidence. Yes, I missed you point...you didn't make it particularly explicit.

Reply #4581 Posted: March 09, 2008, 10:42:57 am
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Offline KiLL3r

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"feeling gods presence" is not evidence for his existence and never can be. Even though you maybe be sincere about it. The only thing i would categorize these types of events as are misinterpretations of feelings/events or mental illness.

Reply #4582 Posted: March 09, 2008, 10:57:08 am


Offline Tiwaking!

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Quote from: cobra;672784
If things either have an impact on reality or they dont, things that do there is evidence for this, there is no evidence that god has impact on reality so either there is no god or there is a god that doesnt impact on anything, why care if there is a god that cannot effect things as that is exactly the same as no god

The reason why I used the word 'benevolent' instead of 'sentient' is because there are quite a few examples of non-sentient(dead) Gods, most prominent being Osiris. Also: There are many examples of non-benevolent Gods. Loki, Apep(but not Set), Angra Mainyu, Kottravai and Tawhiri-Matea.

Believing in a non-sentient God is akin to believing in a non-benevolent one.

Reply #4583 Posted: March 09, 2008, 11:15:07 am
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Offline nick247

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Quote from: KiLL3r;672910
"feeling gods presence" is not evidence for his existence and never can be. Even though you maybe be sincere about it. The only thing i would categorize these types of events as are misinterpretations of feelings/events or mental illness.


exactly, i can experience those EXACT feelings and not attribute them to god as many others do

Reply #4584 Posted: March 09, 2008, 01:07:43 pm

Offline krasher

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Quote from: KiLL3r;672910
"feeling gods presence" is not evidence for his existence and never can be. Even though you maybe be sincere about it. The only thing i would categorize these types of events as are misinterpretations of feelings/events or mental illness.
Is that what you think I was talking about?

Those EXACT feelings aye. Sure they are. Cos you know EXACTLY what others feel.

Reply #4585 Posted: March 09, 2008, 04:17:03 pm
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Offline Marmite

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Quote from: nick247;672985
exactly, i can experience those EXACT feelings and not attribute them to god as many others do


You'd attribute them to Menial?

Reply #4586 Posted: March 09, 2008, 04:23:36 pm

Offline KiLL3r

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Quote from: krasher;673071
Cos you know EXACTLY what others feel.


No i dont. thats why when you say the only evidence you have for god is your feelings with him, i cant believe you.

Reply #4587 Posted: March 09, 2008, 04:25:59 pm


Offline krasher

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Quote from: KiLL3r;673075
No i dont. thats why when you say the only evidence you have for god is your feelings with him, i cant believe you.

When did I say that?

Reply #4588 Posted: March 09, 2008, 05:04:20 pm
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Offline Tiwaking!

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Quote from: Tiwaking!;672922
The reason why I used the word 'benevolent' instead of 'sentient' is because there are quite a few examples of non-sentient(dead) Gods, most prominent being Osiris. Also: There are many examples of non-benevolent Gods. Loki, Apep(but not Set), Angra Mainyu, Kottravai and Tawhiri-Matea.

Believing in a non-sentient God is akin to believing in a non-benevolent one.

To the arse who decided to neg rep this post
And why the smeg does it say there are 114 pages, but I cant get to page 114?
[video]G5JtxrR6msg[/video]

Reply #4589 Posted: March 10, 2008, 10:07:27 pm
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Offline DEATH0WL

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Quote from: Tiwaking!;673923
And why the smeg does it say there are 114 pages, but I cant get to page 114?


Do you mean 151 pages??? :sly:

That's a case of admins hiding a post, it still counts for some reason.

Reply #4590 Posted: March 10, 2008, 10:10:32 pm

Offline Black Heart

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nah i get 114 pages too, you running 1440x900 ? it went screwy when they merged the threads. which was incredibly rude because i was going to delete the one i started. / don't really remember why.

Reply #4591 Posted: March 10, 2008, 10:30:10 pm

Offline Ngati_Grim

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Nice vid Tiwakingi,

Sums some of it up quite succinctly.

Reply #4592 Posted: March 11, 2008, 08:43:03 am
Recycle your red poppies, paint them white, and wear them throughout the year.

Offline ThaFleastyler

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Say this news story and thought of the thread!
For the record, let me say that Catholicism is far more dogmatic than most Christ-based religions or denominations. You would never see any mention of the deadly sins at my church.

Quote
Seven not enough: Pope adds to deadly sins

There used to be just seven, but the list of sins that could threaten your mortal soul just got a whole lot longer.

The Vatican has overhauled its list of mortal sins, adding several more to cope with the age of globalisation.

The new sins take aim at those who undermine society in far reaching ways, including by taking or dealing in drugs, polluting the environment, and engaging in "manipulative" genetic science, The Times of London reports.

Also new to the list are paedophilia, abortion, and social injustices that cause poverty or "the excessive accumulation of wealth by a few".

They join the long-standing evils of lust, gluttony, avarice, sloth, anger, envy and pride as mortal sins – the gravest kind, which threaten the soul with eternal damnation unless absolved before death through confession or penitence.

The church's revised position came as the Pope lamented the "decreasing sense of sin" in today's "secularised world," and falling rates of Roman Catholics going to confession, The Times reported.

Bishop Gianfranco Girotti, head of the Apostolic Penitentiary, the Vatican body which oversees confessions and plenary indulgences, said after a week-long Lenten seminar for priests that surveys showed 60 per cent of Catholics in Italy no longer went to confession.

He said priests must take account of "new sins which had appeared on the horizon of humanity as a corollary of the unstoppable process of globalisation".

"Whereas sin in the past was thought of as being an individual matter, it now had social resonance," he was quoted by The Times as saying.

"You offend God not only by stealing, blaspheming or coveting your neighbour's wife, but also by ruining the environment, carrying out morally debatable scientific experiments, or allowing genetic manipulations which alter DNA or compromise embryos," he said.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4433581a10.html
After reading that, maybe the Pope should make "advancement ofthe human species" a deadly sin too :disappoin

Reply #4593 Posted: March 11, 2008, 10:26:27 am

Offline cobra

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;674121
Say this news story and thought of the thread!
For the record, let me say that Catholicism is far more dogmatic than most Christ-based religions or denominations. You would never see any mention of the deadly sins at my church.


http://www.stuff.co.nz/4433581a10.html
After reading that, maybe the Pope should make "advancement ofthe human species" a deadly sin too :disappoin


taking or dealing drugs?

wonder what he means by drugs? are doctors going to hell? baristas and bartenders? or just illegal drugs?

Reply #4594 Posted: March 11, 2008, 12:55:58 pm

Offline Black Heart

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why bother inventing sin? The priests are only going to forgive them all anyway, isn't that what confession is all about ?

Reply #4595 Posted: March 11, 2008, 01:21:59 pm

Offline SteddieEddie

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I had to laugh at the one about excessive wealth. Does this mean they church will sell all their buildings or maybe open up the vatican to all the homeless in Europe? They could pick off all the gold in the alters and feed themselves. I wonder if they will abolish tithing

Reply #4596 Posted: March 11, 2008, 01:25:18 pm

Offline Dr Woomanchu

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Quote from: cobra;674198
taking or dealing drugs?

wonder what he means by drugs? are doctors going to hell? baristas and bartenders? or just illegal drugs?


Yeah I laughed when I read this. Does that make using sacramental wine a mortal sin?

Reply #4597 Posted: March 11, 2008, 01:31:46 pm

Blackwatch Off Topic - Abandon hope all ye who enter here

Offline KiLL3r

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by ruining the environment, carrying out morally debatable scientific experiments, or allowing genetic manipulations which alter DNA or compromise embryos


lol dark ages here we come

Reply #4598 Posted: March 11, 2008, 01:38:23 pm


Offline cobra

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Quote from: KiLL3r;674234
lol dark ages here we come


you would think they would have given up on the whole antiscience thing after the whole Galileo mess up

Reply #4599 Posted: March 11, 2008, 02:32:54 pm