Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[psyche]

well obviously noting is going to materialize infront of your face but in gods existence there's no real way to mesaure a gods existence is there now

There's lots of things that can't be measured by the scientific method. Doesn't mean they don't exist. I believe that all of creation is proof of God, and so do many scientists and philosophers. Now what smart guy?

everyone is alone at some point in their lives in which RELIGION SAVES THE DAY BUDDY IT SAVES THE DAY HIGH FIVE
/sarcasm

Yeah, okay, whatever.

[psyche]

well obviously noting is going to materialize infront of your face but in gods existence there's no real way to mesaure a gods existence is there now

There's lots of things that can't be measured by the scientific method. Doesn't mean they don't exist. I believe that all of creation is proof of God, and so do many scientists and philosophers. Now what smart guy?

everyone is alone at some point in their lives in which RELIGION SAVES THE DAY BUDDY IT SAVES THE DAY HIGH FIVE
/sarcasm

Yeah, okay, whatever.

[Codex]

There's lots of things that can't be measured by the scientific method. Doesn't mean they don't exist.



Yeah, okay, whatever.

Like? Things that can't be measured that obviously do exist are visually confirmed, you can't name a few hundred people that are not crazy, that have seen 'god'.

You can't honestly say that there hasn't been a single moment in your life where you have been alone.

[ThaFleastyler]

I'm not going to quote any particular person here, but I want to ask about conditioning kids, using 2 examples:

Example 1:

I have a 7 year old daughter who I usually see every second weekend when she stays with me from Friday evening till Sunday afternoon. At my house, she has a book of bible stories translated for kids and a couple of CDs by Christian artists (Brooke Fraser, that kind of thing). When she stays with me, she plays with kids from church, as well as kids from school. She attends the kids program at the church I go to. When she stays with me the option is either take her along to church, or not go to church at all, and since I go to church I take her with me as opposed to leaving my 7 year old daughter at home alone. When she stays with her mum, she doesn't go to church.

Now, given the opinions I'm reading here, am I conditioning my child to be religious?


Example 2:

When I was growing up, my mother was a card-carrying member of the Catholic church, and I went with her to church every Sunday from the day I was born. I was baptised in a Catholic church. I went to Catholic schools. When I was 8 I had First Holy Communion (meaning I was old enough to have one of the wafers). At 12 I went through a ceremony called Confirmation. I served as an altar-server (the church I was at didn't have gown-wearing altar boys). I hung out with kids from church. I had a crucifix hanging in my bedroom. At age 13 I was given the choice to stop going to church if I wanted, and I never went back (I haven't stepped inside a Catholic church since).

Given the opinions I'm reading here, was I conditioned to be religious?

[Arnifix]

Now, given the opinions I'm reading here, am I conditioning my child to be religious?

Given the opinions I'm reading here, was I conditioned to be religious?

Yes.

[Chilli]

Interval time



BUZZZZZZZZZZZ =

Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

Ok back to it..

[Codex]

I'm not going to quote any particular person here, but I want to ask about conditioning kids, using 2 examples:

Example 1:

I have a 7 year old daughter who I usually see every second weekend when she stays with me from Friday evening till Sunday afternoon. At my house, she has a book of bible stories translated for kids and a couple of CDs by Christian artists (Brooke Fraser, that kind of thing). When she stays with me, she plays with kids from church, as well as kids from school. She attends the kids program at the church I go to. When she stays with me the option is either take her along to church, or not go to church at all, and since I go to church I take her with me as opposed to leaving my 7 year old daughter at home alone. When she stays with her mum, she doesn't go to church.

Now, given the opinions I'm reading here, am I conditioning my child to be religious?

I suppose it depends on how much the 'idealistic christian values' are upheld. since its every 2nd weekend id say the child is still somewhat aware of what its like with or without church and can say weather or not she wishes to be apart of it.

Example 2:

When I was growing up, my mother was a card-carrying member of the Catholic church, and I went with her to church every Sunday from the day I was born. I was baptised in a Catholic church. I went to Catholic schools. When I was 8 I had First Holy Communion (meaning I was old enough to have one of the wafers). At 12 I went through a ceremony called Confirmation. I served as an altar-server (the church I was at didn't have gown-wearing altar boys). I hung out with kids from church. I had a crucifix hanging in my bedroom. At age 13 I was given the choice to stop going to church if I wanted, and I never went back (I haven't stepped inside a Catholic church since).

Given the opinions I'm reading here, was I conditioned to be religious?

id say yes, and then you got set free prison break

[Ngati_Grim]

I can only give you my personal beliefs based on my understanding of various things. In the end, that's all it is, a personal belief as much as your unproveable personal beliefs. But do you even care what I think? I have been trying to understand your atheistic viewpoints, even if I can't intellectually respect them I am atleast trying to understand, seems to me you are not trying to understand my views at all, or rather you just don't want to...

good golly, I thought by asking that question I was trying to understand your beliefs, but you've given me nothing.

Note: a lot of my personal 'beliefs' are provable, testable, and retestable.

[psyche]

I guess it depends if your beliefs are directly influenced by your parents choice to be religious, or if you admired and sympthasized with Christianity on your own terms.

I was baptized, and went to church sometimes, but I don't belong to any particular religion but still respect religions for what they are. Was I conditioned? No, I came to my own conclusions about life like any intelligent person should be able to.

I mean.. kids don't think about the meaning of life and stuff like that at that age.. but when they get to the age where they do, it should be explained that religion is a personal choice that people make and they don't necessarily have to have the exact same beliefs and traditions that you do. Unfortunately that doesn't always happen.

[psyche]

good golly, I thought by asking that question I was trying to understand your beliefs, but you've given me nothing.

I will. Later tonight if I can be bothered...

Note: a lot of my personal 'beliefs' are provable, testable, and retestable.

As are a lot of mine.

[Ngati_Grim]

That's a good start!


Flea, I'm afraid I will have to agree with Arni et al. and say "yes"!

[ThaFleastyler]

Flea, I'm afraid I will have to agree with Arni et al. and say "yes"!

OK then, follow up question:

My daughter loves going to church and stuff because she gets to see her friends, so I'm not dragging her along kicking and screaming, and on the one occasion I can recall that she reeeeeally didn't want to go, we both stayed home and did painting together. I don't ram biblical teaching down her throat and we don't say prayers together before bed or any of that stuff. When I discipline her, its always from a moral position (ie "don't throw stuff at someone driving a car, they might crash") as opposed to a biblical position (ie "don't throw stuff at someone, lest ye have stuff thrown at thee"). I don't read her the bible stories book, because I want her to make the choice for herself to read it (plus, its good for her reading comprehension to do it herself). I bought her the Brooke Fraser CD because I wanted to make sure she was listening to music that had a reasonably positive message; I also bought her High School Musical and the soundtrack to Happy Feet.

So do you still think I'm conditioning her for religion?

[brucewillis2]

I just remember a story about a poor boy that had an illness that through medicine was easily fixable. BUT NOOOOooo the religious nutty parents said our son won't be using htat medicine. God will heal him. End story was the poor boy suffered in room unable to move and die a slow and painful death. nice going religious nutters.

I'm not against some of the principles taught which is be kind to each other. But  not this god in the heavens crap. I watched this documentary called 'jesus camp' I suggest some of the people in this forum watch it.

It's about kids in America's bible belt. The main teacher of this school admires suicide bombers in the middle east for their complete devotion to god. Then she comments that 'we haven't reached that point YET'. Suicide bombing - good one religious nuts.

[mish]

To be fair, the nuts give the nice ones a bad name.

[brucewillis2]

http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/health/May-June-08/Boy-Dies-After-Choosing-Prayer-Over-Medicine.html

Here's that article about those religious fuckers letting their own son die painfully while 'their god' looked on. What was the problem? got the answering machine when they prayed? Where was god when one of his believers suffered? ANSWER: There is NO GOD.

It boils my blood when I see this happening. A complete waste of life. This is what happened to the poor kid
"He suffered stomach pains and shortness of breath until the toxins in his blood caused heart failure. "

[psyche]

http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/health/May-June-08/Boy-Dies-After-Choosing-Prayer-Over-Medicine.html

Here's that article about those religious fuckers letting their own son die painfully while 'their god' looked on. What was the problem? got the answering machine when they prayed? Where was god when one of his believers suffered? ANSWER: There is NO GOD.

It boils my blood when I see this happening. A complete waste of life. This is what happened to the poor kid
"He suffered stomach pains and shortness of breath until the toxins in his blood caused heart failure. "

Did you even read any my fucking posts? STUPID PARENTS, NOT RELIGION'S FAULT. RELIGION DOESN'T TEACH TO USE PRAYER INSTEAD OF MEDICINE. Quit being a moron. I swear I need to stop responding to some of these posts or i'm going to catch a case of the stupid off one of you.

So it's fault of every single religion and every religious person in the entire world because a few stupid dumbfuck parents don't know how to look after their kids. Aaah it's all making perfect sense. There is no God because people die. I guess God should have made us invincible, ooh ooh and he should have made the world so that there can be no bad things, and everything is a perfect little paradise and no-one has the ability to think for themselves. Hell, you just can't win can you. If you were God, would you give the gift of free will to people or would you make them mindless robots that are not able to make their own decisions and live with their own consequnces? Think about that for a moment.

[brucewillis2]

Hey psyche. how much do you believe in religion.

You believe in God? yes/no
jesus? yes/no
God flooded the earth and got Noah to build a big wooden boat and put every animal in the world on it male and female? yes/no

[brucewillis2]

I will say that religion has helped a friends brother of mine. He got into drugs in a bad way and was losing the plot so he moved to a relatives place where he couldn't get his hands on anything.

When he returned 3 years later he had dropped the drugs and picked up God. Now he goes on and on about god will save us and how everyone will perish in hell unless they turn to god. You can tell that anything you ask him is a regurgitation of what some preacher has told him. It's painful to see how effective the religious brainwashing was.

[psyche]

Hi brucewillis

Please try thinking next time before you mash the buttons on your keyboard in a flurry of incoherent stupidity and hope that your arguments make some kind of sense. Thanks in advance.

You believe in God? yes/no

Yes, of course. But I don't believe God is a guardian watching over us and correcting our every little mistake and performing little miracles when we ask for them. We are in our in control of our own lives, our own decisions, and any consequences our decisions bring upon us, NOT God.

jesus? yes/no

You are now asking me how much I believe in Christianity, not religion.

Yes, there is historical evidence that Jesus was a real person like you and me. Whether he was the supposed son of God or not, debatable.

God flooded the earth and got Noah to build a big wooden boat and put every animal in the world on it male and female? yes/no

In my opinion, these are analogies that would relate to the people of the time. The Bible is full of lots of symbolism (aswell as wisdom), and thus I don't think it should all be interepreted literally as some people do.

I'm not a Christian though, it should be pointed out.

[psyche]

I will say that religion has helped a friends brother of mine. He got into drugs in a bad way and was losing the plot so he moved to a relatives place where he couldn't get his hands on anything.

When he returned 3 years later he had dropped the drugs and picked up God. Now he goes on and on about god will save us and how everyone will perish in hell unless they turn to god. You can tell that anything you ask him is a regurgitation of what some preacher has told him. It's painful to see how effective the religious brainwashing was.

That's a shame. I think you're probably over-exaggerating a bit though, and i'm pretty sure the Bible doesn't say that people that don't turn to God will perish in hell. If that's what he believes then obviously hasn't read the bible and is just blindly following the religion without questioning any of it (as any intelligible person should). Tell him to wake the fuck up.

But hey, if it fixed his life up and got him clean then it might not be such a bad thing eh?

[psyche]

He didn't go to Destiny Church did he? I wouldn't be suprised...

[brucewillis2]

Please try thinking next time before you mash the buttons on your keyboard in a flurry of incoherent stupidity and hope that your arguments make some kind of sense. Thanks in advance.

Look I can tell your getting frustrated that we aren't falling for it. Try to remain calm.

Yes, of course. But I don't believe God is a guardian watching over us and correcting our every little mistake and performing little miracles when we ask for them. We are in our in control of our own lives, our own decisions, and any consequences our decisions bring upon us, NOT God.

So what/who is this God? Please explain this to me so I may understand what God is. Is God a thing? a person? A strange force that surrounds us, penetrates us, binds us together?

[psyche]

OK then, follow up question:

My daughter loves going to church and stuff because she gets to see her friends, so I'm not dragging her along kicking and screaming, and on the one occasion I can recall that she reeeeeally didn't want to go, we both stayed home and did painting together. I don't ram biblical teaching down her throat and we don't say prayers together before bed or any of that stuff. When I discipline her, its always from a moral position (ie "don't throw stuff at someone driving a car, they might crash") as opposed to a biblical position (ie "don't throw stuff at someone, lest ye have stuff thrown at thee"). I don't read her the bible stories book, because I want her to make the choice for herself to read it (plus, its good for her reading comprehension to do it herself). I bought her the Brooke Fraser CD because I wanted to make sure she was listening to music that had a reasonably positive message; I also bought her High School Musical and the soundtrack to Happy Feet.

So do you still think I'm conditioning her for religion?

No, sounds like you're an awesome (and relatively normal) parent. Good job dude.

[brucewillis2]

Hmmm I sense Psyche is as brainwashed as my mates brother. No hope for him now.

[psyche]

Look I can tell your getting frustrated that we aren't falling for it. Try to remain calm.

So what/who is this God? Please explain this to me so I may understand what God is. Is God a thing? a person? A strange force that surrounds us, penetrates us, binds us together?

Yeah, I mean... I can't tell you exactly what God is, because i'm not entirely sure. I am just fairly confident that God exists, in one form of another. And the fact that some of the most intelligent scientists and philosophers in our entire human history believed similar, reaffirms this even more for me. But God could mean just about anything. It might be something completely different to what my idea of God is, or what Einstein's idea of God was ect.


But some fundamental, interesting philosophical questions you should ask yourself is, how does everything exist? Why does anything even exist at all? Why does life exist - if there is no purpose to the universe and the universe is just a random accident that somehow magically popped into existence in some freak random occurance  - then would have life have even developed in the first place? Would stars have developed, or planets? Why do these things even bother to exist, if they were not created for the purpose of life? What is time? What is consciousness?

If the universe was created (as the Big Bang theory predicts) what was the source of the creation? For example, you see an awesome painting that depicts a beautiful landscape. That painting didn't just randomly paint itself, it was painted by someone.  Creation isn't random, it's an ordered process. Just as the universe and nature is ordered and intelligible.