Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[ThaFleastyler]

turns out that Anthony Dixon was physically and sexually abused by a church before he went crazy

As krasher pointed out, this really has no bearing on anything.

First of all, this discussion centres on the existence of God, not the corruptibility of church leadership.

Secondly, none of the "Christian" or religious people in this discussion have ever denied that bad things happen in a church from time to time. But "humans make mistakes" is not evidence to support a lack of God. Abuse is horrific, end of story, but it does occur in all areas of society, not just in churches.

Thirdly, stating that "abuse occured in a church one time" really does nothing for this discussion either way. People make mistakes, whether religious or not.

Fourthly, if you've been watching any of the coverage of this trial, it amazes me that anyone could take anything either Dixon or his sister says seriously. There is just something severely wrong with that man - whether it was because of treatment as a child or treatment by church people or simply because he's a few sandwiches short of a picnic, or a combination of all of these, I couldn't tell you.

[Retardobot]

Thirdly, stating that "abuse occured in a church one time" really does nothing for this discussion either way. People make mistakes, whether religious or not.

True, but when those type of mistakes are made from a sector that projects morals of a healthy and loving life, it's effect is amplified.

[Ngati_Grim]

+1 Flea.

Let's keep the perspective folks.
Abuse occurs in all facets of society and is not the exclusive domain of the religious. It probably gets more media time due to the 'shocking' nature, but that don't really mean squat!

[Chilli]

Neg, i'm fucking awesome.

Law of Logical Argument:
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

[mattnz]

Why is there a mysterious extra page at the end of this thread. Mysterious...

[Chilli]

Why is there a mysterious extra page at the end of this thread. Mysterious...

God moves in mysterious ways? :disappoin

[robbyx]

Why is there a mysterious extra page at the end of this thread. Mysterious...

Yea i keep seeing it to.....a sign from God ?.....hold me, im scared.

[Arnifix]

Yea i keep seeing it to.....a sign from God ?.....hold me, im scared.

I guess it's Templar's way of telling us there is always something out there that we can't explain or understand, and it's him.

[ThaFleastyler]

The scary thing is that after taking out psyche's posts, the thread dropped 20 pages just like that.

If only I could find a diet that was that effective for myself

[ThaFleastyler]

True, but when those type of mistakes are made from a sector that projects morals of a healthy and loving life, it's effect is amplified.

This is true, but it doesn't make it any better or worse.

It is despicable that someone would take advantage of a position of trust, but it does happen. When the temptation is there, no-one can know for sure how they'll react - take Winston Peters for example; while his behaviour is not even the same ball park ("not even the same f*ckin sport", as Samuel L would say) as child abuse, the fact of the matter is that the temptation presented itself to him and he caved.

This doesn't justify the behaviour of abuse, but it does go to explain why allegations of abuse coming from a church shouldn't be any more shocking than allegations coming from a school or an uncle, and thus why I don't believe its fairly admissable as evidence for an anti-religious position. You could as easily be anti-family or anti-education.

[cobra]

If what you say is true. It is terrible - as is any abuse - however don't bother using it as church or God bashing stick because you may find that if you look at the statistics that there is less abuse within the walls of the church. I don't know...but you would need more evidence/stats before you could draw that conclusion. Either way it doesn't show more or less evidence of God or science.

If you look at new paper articles a huge percentage of child molestation has some sort of christian connection - christianity does obsess over and oppress sexuality so would it come as a surprise if they were over represented in abuse cases - anyways christians will be represented higher than scientists

[ThaFleastyler]

If you look at new paper articles a huge percentage of child molestation has some sort of christian connection

I wouldn't say that at all. In fact, I blatantly disagree with that assertion. I am positive that detailed analysis would show that any *perceived* majority would come down to the newspapers' willingness to simply make stories about "abuse in the church" more prominent than stories about "abuse in general society".

anyways christians will be represented higher than scientists

Oh, I'm sorry, I must have missed the post where you provided a solid basis for that statement ... would you mind reposting the links, studies and expert opinions you used to base it on?

:disappoin

[psyche]

Don't expect cobra to have a solid basis for any statement he makes

[Codex]

Why is there a mysterious extra page at the end of this thread. Mysterious...

well posts keep getting pushed back so the 177th page sometimes has posts on it then goes back to 176 lol

[psyche]

well posts keep getting pushed back so the 177th page sometimes has posts on it then goes back to 176 lol

There must be a rip in the space-time continuum

[cobra]

Oh, I'm sorry, I must have missed the post where you provided a solid basis for that statement ... would you mind reposting the links, studies and expert opinions you used to base it on?

:disappoin

Based on a search for sex abuse by scientists, couldn't find any cases of the widespread, systematic abuse cases that happen in the church

im quitting and never come back, i hate you guys and no-one understands me

so you're back? - I guess you are a man lacking any sort of intergity

[psyche]

Scientists made the nuclear bomb though. Thanks science.

[psyche]

Scientists made the nuclear bomb though. Thanks science.

[Bounty Hunter]

now that's narrow minded.

[psyche]

now that's narrow minded.

What, kinda like saying all religions and all Christian churches are corrupt and child abusers? Mass generalizations ftw in this thread it seems.

[ThaFleastyler]

Based on a search for sex abuse by scientists, couldn't find any cases of the widespread, systematic abuse cases that happen in the church

Well, I searched for "character references for cobra from iconzarena" on Google, and got no hits ... so ... yikes.

[Ngati_Grim]

Albert Einstein: His famous remark "God does not play dice" referred to quantum mechanics and the role of chance in physics - but was widely misinterpreted - as this first quote - a response to a letter from a worried atheist, indicates:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as science can reveal it."


"Only two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure of the former."

From: The Quotable Atheist. Ed: Jack Huberman
p102
2007 Nation Books

[Bounty Hunter]

lol wtf is going on?

[ThaFleastyler]

Albert Einstein: His famous remark "God does not play dice" referred to quantum mechanics and the role of chance in physics - but was widely misinterpreted - as this first quote - a response to a letter from a worried atheist, indicates:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as science can reveal it."


"Only two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure of the former."

From: The Quotable Atheist. Ed: Jack Huberman
p102
2007 Nation Books

Its pretty interesting stuff

From what I've read, my understanding was that Einstein didn't completely discount that such an entity could exist (presumably allowing for that piece of unquestionable evidence), but he was not a "believer" per se - he simultaneously believed that a) not everything could be known about the universe, and b) no God would create a universe where not everything could be known.

Frankly, I think holding old science guys as reasons why God exists is pointless, given the massive differences between then and now. As recently as the early-mid 20th century, science was still being done under the understanding that God existed. Heck, one of the first prominent geologists was a priest (Reverend William Buckland, I believe his name was).

It certainly does seem like the more science uncovers, the easier it becomes to deny the existence of God.

[psyche]

Einstein hated quantum mechanics. He liked to think of the universe being probabilistic and nothing changed but was always fundamentally the same. He could never really accept that particular concept of quantum theory.

Max Planck though, the founder of quantum theory, on the other hand was quite religious.

I'm sure Einstein probably made a lot of contradictory statements throughout his life, I think that's somewhat understandable for what was probably one of the most intelligent men in recent history -  I already knew that he didn't believe in a personal God (that plans our daily lives and performs miracles ect.), but he still believed in God and couldn't conceive of a universe that existed without God. I would point you to quote I posted a few pages back but some dumbass has gone and deleted every single one of my posts so fuck it.

I think when Einstein was talking about God, it might have been more of a metaphor than anything. Definately not the exact same idea of God that Judeo-Christians believe in, but it's going back to the thing I posted a while back about we all approach the same thing, just in different ways.

God does play dice, it seems, yes. Neils Bohr, whom was another scientist working on quantum mechanics at the time that Einstein made the comment 'God does not play dice' said to Einstein, 'Stop telling God what to do with his dice!" But he spent the better part of his last few years trying to dismiss the unpredictability of quantum mechanics with his grand Theory of Everything that he thought would be the equivalent of 'reading the mind of God.'

"I want to know how God created this world...I want to know his thoughts; the rest are details,"

 It's fair to say he may have lost the plot just a little bit in his remaining years, but he also came up with the theory of relativity and E=mc2 aswell as numerous other scientific discoveries so he is someone to be respected even if he was unable to accept the discovery of quantum theory.

He also stood up and applauded, and said 'This is the most beautiful and satisfactory explanation of creation I have ever witnessed!' when George Lemaitre explained his theory of the 'primeval atom' (Big Bang) to him, and admitted the mistakes he had made with his own theories.

Awesome guy.