Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Dr Woomanchu]

lol ironically the christianity needs to evolve heheheheh

we all know that survival goes to those who evolve

What's even more ironic is that a model of Christianity's history is a beautiful natural evolutionary model.

[Winston Peters]

Projection
In psychology, psychological projection (or projection bias) is a defense mechanism in which one attributes one’s own unacceptable or unwanted thoughts or/and emotions to others. Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted subconscious impulses/desires without letting the conscious mind recognize them.........

NEVER talk about Freudian psychology unless taunting it, he thought he was a god so he made up his own religon based on his own sick problems...

[nick247]

yeah i was thinking about that, but i think that with the speed at which society has evolved it is outpacing the ability of christianity as a whole to keep

[cobra]

But you did imply that all Christians were comparable to hate groups, did you not?

no i said christianity is a hate group, a group that promotes hatred

I use the term "Christian", with quotation marks, because no real Christian would teach or believe hate - you have to have a totally fucked up view of things, and a vital core misunderstanding of God and the biblical text, to teach hate in any form, from a Christian perspective.

so you are the one who decides who is christian? there are a lot of people who say that you are not a real christian if you tolerate homosexuals, solo mothers, woman working or what ever they disapprove of, you probably have a point if the only christians you consider are ones you deem to be "true christians" but you are not the judge so you dont have a point, unlucky.

[ThaFleastyler]

no i said christianity is a hate group, a group that promotes hatred

But Christianity doesn't promote hatred. Certain groups of supposed "Christians" do, but Christianity as a whole does not. You'd have to be promoting ignorance to say or think such a thing ...

so you are the one who decides who is christian? there are a lot of people who say that you are not a real christian if you tolerate homosexuals, solo mothers, woman working or what ever they disapprove of, you probably have a point if the only christians you consider are ones you deem to be "true christians" but you are not the judge so you dont have a point, unlucky.

So now I'm not entitled to my own opinion? Seriously?

Seriously Cobra, when was the last time you actually talked to a Christian? You've surrounded yourself with so many anti-Christian people and affirmed your own opinion so often that you can't even see when you're wrong dude. Your generalisation is offensive and wrong, so please just shut up about it.

[robbyx]

no i said christianity is a hate group, a group that promotes hatred

Thats so far from the truth its ridiculous...
Ever heard of the Salvation army, a group that works tirelessly for the benefit of the community for absolutely no benefit to themselves other than to help those less fortunate.

Take democracy for example....great evil is being done in the name of democracy...does that make everyone who believes in democracy an evil, hate-loving war monger...no, it doesnt.

Christianity is an ideal based on "love thy fellow man", sure some people twist an manipulate its teachings to suit their own selfish desires, but that happens with any ideal or doctrane ever invented.....to label christianity as a hate group because of some out of date 2000 year old words or the actions of some rabid fundamentalists is just stupid.....but it does speak volumes about the sort of person you are.

[ThaFleastyler]

and thus you have the problem

The bible teaches a message that is in parts relevent to today and in many parts completely irrelevent. Any piece of codified guidance will always be going out of date and require updating. Because Christians are too willing to see the bible as a perfect timeless text then they end up preaching and teaching things that in the present day IS CONSIDERED bigotry and it will only get worse and the western world liberalises

women, blacks, people who are different, the mentally ill, sick people, gays, adulterers, sluts all of these were looked at different in the days the bible was created. Not only that but the book is based on one part of the world and its values. And we all know how big the world is

The bible cannot handle the world we live in today and it is not going to get any better. Christianity needs a new game plan or it is going to/ IS GETTING left in the dust

put traditional Christianity in a fucking museum cos its getting OOLLLDD

You've pretty much made one of my points for me.

How can Christianity even try to evolve or become relevant, when people like Cobra promote unfair, incorrect generalisations about the Christian church? When people, like Cobra, walk around saying that Christians hate everybody, it makes it a helluva lot harder to try and say 'hey, no we don't'.

To make it worse, the majority of the population jump to the conclusion that people who are against the church must be right. As an example, think about this: when was the last time you saw or read a positive article about a church? The truth is that the opinion of the church is that it is stuck in the middle ages, when in fact the church doesn't preach the same things that people seem to think (such as hate), and it is trying to be relevant today and help in the community.

Seriously, when has the Christian church EVER been given an opportunity to clear its name? When have ANY of you EVER taken anything a Christian has said in this thread seriously? Like, I'm willing to say that I'm wrong, but Cobra is allowed to keep saying Christianity is a hate group without anyone (aside from me; edit: and robbyx) saying 'hey, wait a second, thats wrong and unfair'? GG guys.

[Ngati_Grim]

Thats so far from the truth its ridiculous...
Ever heard of the Salvation army, a group that works tirelessly for the benefit of the community for absolutely no benefit to themselves other than to help those less fortunate.

The Salvation Army are not selfless. I know, personally, of at least two marriages that have disintegrated because of the pressures the 'Army' put on the family member who was not a member of the 'Army". The Salvation Army is essentially a cult within christianity and they have disturbingly conservative social ideals (tempered by the illusion of unjudging social care). Sure, they raise their profile by 'helping' in the community, but it isn't without agenda. They want to 'save' people.


source

The ultimate mission of The Salvation Army is to bring the whole world under the Christian umbrella. This mandate is based on the Army's interpretation of the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament. The Salvation Army believes, as stated in their first doctrinal statement, that only these scriptures "constitute the Divine rule of Christian faith and practice."

Absolutely no benefit to themselves?

5. We believe that our first parents were created in a state of innocency, but by their disobedience they lost their purity and happiness, and that in consequence of their fall all men have become sinners, totally depraved and as such are justly exposed to the wrath of God.

I love it! :disappoin

11. We believe in the immortality of the soul; in the resurrection of the body; in the general judgment at the end of the world; in the eternal happiness of the righteous; and in the endless punishment of the wicked."

I love it! :disappoin

"The three ‘S's’ best expressed the way in which the Army administered to the 'down and outs': first, soup; second, soap; and finally, salvation."

Opposition to hiring homosexuals
The Salvation Army in the U.S. has been the topic of many controversial discussions about discrimination against homosexuals in their hiring practices.[5] According to lesbian/gay newsmagazine The Advocate, the Bush administration was "willing to do whatever it takes to perpetuate, support, and defend discrimination against gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender individuals" in exchange for The Salvation Army's lobby support for Faith-Based Initiatives, in what the publication described as a "secret arrangement."[6] The New York Times reported that the Salvation Army believed it had a firm commitment from the White House to issue a regulation that would override local antidiscrimination laws. A disclosure of The Salvation Army's request "outraged some civil rights groups and lawmakers," and resulted in an immediate reversal of a previous promise to honor the request.[7]

The Salvation Army's position is that because it is a church, Section VII of the U.S. Civil Rights Act of 1964 explicitly guarantees its right to discriminate on the basis of its religious beliefs in its hiring. To reinforce its position, it threatened to close all soup kitchens in New York City when the city government proposed legislation that would require all organizations doing business with it to provide equal benefits to unmarried domestic partners.[8]

From 1940 through the 1970s the Salvation Army in Australia sheltered approximately 30,000 children. The Australian Salvation Army issued an apology and has acknowledged that sexual abuse may have occurred during this time. The Army explicitly rejects the claim that there are as many as 500 potential claimants.

There's a whole lot more too. But I don't think they work tirelessly for the good of the community. I think that perception is the result of an effective advertising campaign.


While christian churches do do some good social work, there are also problems with bigotry, most notibly the schism that is occuring in the protestant churches (presbyterian and anglican) over the ordination of women, the ordination of homosexuals and the role of homosexuals in the church.
I would be interested to find out about these issues within other 'sects' within christianity specifically (because it is the main 'player' regarding religion in N.Z.) and other religions.

Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[robbyx]

Ngati, every single person on the planet has their own agenda, the salvation army is no different, but that doesnt change the fact that they do a hell of a lot of good for their local community.

I was raised in Aranui, Hampshire st, back in the day it was one of the most violent places in NZ...and the sallys were right in the middle of it....i personaly saw them being spit on, beat up, bricks thrown at them, threatened with death....but all that didnt stop them....you could threaten to stab them and then go ask them for a feed the very next day and they wouldnt bat an eyelid as they gave you something to eat.

They never preached, they asked if you were interested or wanted to talk about god but they never pushed it on you......i would call that selfless acts of kindness.

As you point out, there are some negatives....but from what ive seen they are far out-weighed by their positive actions.

[Ngati_Grim]

I wouldn't call it a selfless act of kindness because it contains an agenda (see bolded below)

Yes, there are good works done. I just wish that they were more open about their 'behind the scenes' Mission, which in the case of the 'Army' is: The ultimate mission of The Salvation Army is to bring the whole world under the Christian umbrella.

I realise I am biased against religious groups, and there are some aspects of these groups which can be attributed to being like hate groups (such as the backroom dealings between the 'Army' and the POTUS, as cited in my previous post.
 This, however, is not the sole domain of religious groups and cannot apply to ALL religious groups.
I try to contain my biases most of the time. Sometimes I can't.


(Woolston Brass > Salvation Army Band) A bit of levity :disappoin

[ThaFleastyler]

Yes, there are good works done. I just wish that they were more open about their 'behind the scenes' Mission, which in the case of the 'Army' is: The ultimate mission of The Salvation Army is to bring the whole world under the Christian umbrella.

So their ultimate mission is to bring people round to their way of thinking?
Umm ... isn't that EVERYONE'S ultimate mission in life?

[Dr Woomanchu]

So their ultimate mission is to bring people round to their way of thinking?
Umm ... isn't that EVERYONE'S ultimate mission in life?

No.

I'd hate to live in a world where everyone believed what I did.

*shudder*

[Codex]

No.

I'd hate to live in a world where everyone believed what I did.

*shudder*

IMO being a jedi is so much cooler

at least for my census anyway

[Ngati_Grim]

So their ultimate mission is to bring people round to their way of thinking?
Umm ... isn't that EVERYONE'S ultimate mission in life?

I sincerely hope not!

My mission is to get through in one piece, relatively unscathed.

[robbyx]

I wouldn't call it a selfless act of kindness because it contains an agenda (see bolded below)

Yes, there are good works done. I just wish that they were more open about their 'behind the scenes' Mission, which in the case of the 'Army' is: The ultimate mission of The Salvation Army is to bring the whole world under the Christian umbrella.

But following that logic, would it not be impossible for anyone to commit a selfless act of kindness ?
Everything , everyone does has some sort of agenda, even at a very basic level...even helping some old lady across the street because it makes you feel good could be considered "having an agenda".
I dont believe for one second that all Sallys are out there only doing good work because they secretly want to convert mankind....that maybe the organisations ultimate goal...but that doesnt change the fact that the individual sally on the street just wants to help their fellow man.

[Ngati_Grim]

I can see your point.

(I'll have to come up with something special if I want to refute this. It may take some time!).

Yes, we all have agendas and I don't really subscribe to 'selfless acts of kindness'.

The individual 'sallie' on the street wants to help their fellow man because they want to drag 'him' out of sin. They are doing this because they are members of an organisation that promotes this as a way to 'god'.

[mish]

I gave someone on the street directions today, whilst running late.
What was my secret agenda?

[robbyx]

The individual 'sallie' on the street wants to help their fellow man because they want to drag 'him' out of sin. They are doing this because they are members of an organisation that promotes this as a way to 'god'.

Then why would they set up shop in a place like Aranui ? why would they take boxes of food every week to a family of dedicated Mongrel Mob members who they know they have absolutely no chance of converting or "dragging out of sin " ?...

Labelling an individual because of the goals of the organisation they work for is assuming an awful lot....and you know what they say about assumption....

[Ngati_Grim]

I gave someone on the street directions today, whilst running late.
What was my secret agenda?

lol, only YOU can know that!

Good question though, and see my reply above (the bracketed part).

Your directions weren't "fuck off" were they? :asian:

Maybe it was a subconscious excuse for running late....made it valid?


I see, Robby, but if one looks at the Mission of the 'Army' one will see that moving into  low socio-economic areas is one of their tactics.

[robbyx]

I gave someone on the street directions today, whilst running late.
What was my secret agenda?

Why didnt you tell them to fuck of ? or just ignore them completely...how would that have made you feel about yourself ?...not very good ?
Did it brighten your day... even for a split second to help someone out ?

[Dr Woomanchu]

The term you gentlemen are flailing about and managing to avoid is "enlightened self interest"

[dirtyape]

Dont christians follow God ? the bible is Gods word is it not ? maybe someone else can elaborate further there....

Of all the millions of christians on the planet i bet there arent two of them that interprut "gods word" exactly the same way...certainly different churchs teach thier own interprutations of the bible, but i wouldnt count one less christian than the other.

Christ is Yahweh made flesh, the avatar of Yahweh, he is their god. There are some things, some fundamental things, within the bible which simply cannot be disputed by any Christian.

For example, all Christians believe Christ is the son of god, god incarnate. They believe he died and was resurrected. These are fundamental Christian beliefs. If you do not believe that Jesus is Yahweh then you are not a Christian. It's literally that simple.

And off course there are other common Christian beliefs stemming from the bible, such as the nativity, the holy trintity,  Satan, Heaven, Hell, Angels, Devils, etc.

But following that logic, would it not be impossible for anyone to commit a selfless act of kindness ?
Everything , everyone does has some sort of agenda, even at a very basic level...even helping some old lady across the street because it makes you feel good could be considered "having an agenda".
I dont believe for one second that all Sallys are out there only doing good work because they secretly want to convert mankind....that maybe the organisations ultimate goal...but that doesnt change the fact that the individual sally on the street just wants to help their fellow man.

I think there are such things as selfless agendas. It seems you have not differentiated between the selfish and the selfless. In fact you are implying is that everyone is naturally selfish.

Not wanting to see someone suffer is a selfless agenda. You could probably analyse it deeper and explain why you did not want to see them suffer, perhaps it revolts you, perhaps you can imagine what it would be like to be them, which in turn causes you distress. But is that a reward? Is not watching someone suffer a reward in itself???

For instance, I once helped an old lady who was trying to take out her wheelie bin. She was small, it was big. I decided to help because I didn't like to see her struggle needlessly.

Is that not selfless?

[robbyx]

I think there are such things as selfless agendas. It seems you have not differentiated between the selfish and the selfless. In fact you are implying is that everyone is naturally selfish.

Not wanting to see someone suffer is a selfless agenda. You could probably analyse it deeper and explain why you did not want to see them suffer, perhaps it revolts you, perhaps you can imagine what it would be like to be them, which in turn causes you distress. But is that a reward? Is not watching someone suffer a reward in itself???

For instance, I once helped an old lady who was trying to take out her wheelie bin. She was small, it was big. I decided to help because I didn't like to see her struggle needlessly.

Is that not selfless?

Read again previous posts...i was advocating the positive by argueing the negative.....at least i think thats what i was doing.

[cobra]

But Christianity doesn't promote hatred. Certain groups of supposed "Christians" do, but Christianity as a whole does not. You'd have to be promoting ignorance to say or think such a thing

what does your church say about homosexuals? what is your churches view of what happens to them when they die? - i dont think you can claim tolerance if you believe these people are going to burn in the fiery pits of hell, and that they deserve to - and this subtle hateful view opens the doors to more extreme hateful views

the people you call "christians" are christians, i can see where you are coming from that they are not promoting love, and that's a shame, they are the people who cause christians to be labelled as hypocrites

Grims post was very good, christian groups do good work in the community, but the conservative hateful views that under ride it lead me to consider them hate groups

- i am willing to back my views up with reason and examples, please if you disagree with be could you do the same and we can have an adult conversation - Name calling and general abuse doesn't do you any favours in the looking tolerant basket

[ThaFleastyler]

Christ is Yahweh made flesh, the avatar of Yahweh, he is their god. There are some things, some fundamental things, within the bible which simply cannot be disputed by any Christian.

For example, all Christians believe Christ is the son of god, god incarnate. They believe he died and was resurrected. These are fundamental Christian beliefs. If you do not believe that Jesus is Yahweh then you are not a Christian. It's literally that simple.

And off course there are other common Christian beliefs stemming from the bible, such as the nativity, the holy trintity,  Satan, Heaven, Hell, Angels, Devils, etc.

On the first count (believing that Jesus is God) and the Holy Trinity thing, you are right, but when it comes to all that other stuff, I've heard discussion on these topics that covers a wide range of opinions and perspectives.