Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[krasher]

well I know in the bible they talk about the devil and angels. I don't have any religious friends, I find their constant preaching annoying so I'm curious to find out what religious people think about these things.

It's like someone who believes in faeries and gnomes in the garden. I know they aren't real but I'm curious to hear from people that think they are. See the thing that amazes me is there is NO PROOF in the existence of God, Not one minuscule piece of solid proof. And I'm no sheep, just because thousands believe in heaven and hell I'm not going to blindly get in line and start reaching for the heavens, believing that if I don't accept god into my life I'm going to suffer for eternity in some hell which definition differs from person to person.

It also amazes me that intelligent people can somehow switch off all intelligence and start believing in things that have no more physical substance than a comic book or fairytale.

Ok.

You're easy to amaze.

It amazes me that people think that they know. Knowing is difficult. Evidence isn't proof as all evidence is interpreted through your subjectivity. It is a question of epistemology really. It is basically impossible to 'know'. So get off your high horse and stop knocking those that interpret the evidence differently. You may just learn something. Or at least not come across like a know it all.

I have said this before...

[nick247]

1) - "Jesus died and was Resurrected?"
.... Yes, and in the process lived a perfect life on our behalf and exchanged that for our sinful one and experienced separation from God (hell) which killed him on the cross - some literature indicates He dies of a broken heart.

 2) - "Jesus was born unto the Virgin Mary (The Nativity) ?"
.... I believe a miraculous conception is possible.

3) - "Man is naturally sinful"
he wasn't created this way but  chose this way in da garden of eden. I see much evidence for this and not much for the contrary.

How do you know this to be true
or more fairly
how do you know this to be reasonably within the realms of likelihood?

i am honestly interested in the answer, and will probably have more questions based on the answer.

edit: what is the evidence you are interpreting and can you articulate for us how you interprete it differently, what is your underlying "logic"?
I put the "" around logic because some will try and argue that there is no logic to faith (its about believing not thinking) but i believe there is somesort of X+Y=Z that goes on in your brain that makes you either believe or not.

[Arnifix]

Ok.

You're easy to amaze.

It amazes me that people think that they know. Knowing is difficult. Evidence isn't proof as all evidence is interpreted through your subjectivity. It is a question of epistemology really. It is basically impossible to 'know'. So get off your high horse and stop knocking those that interpret the evidence differently. You may just learn something. Or at least not come across like a know it all.

I have said this before...

That would be an ecumenical matter.

[Metal-Fingerz]

well I know in the bible they talk about the devil and angels. I don't have any religious friends, I find their constant preaching annoying so I'm curious to find out what religious people think about these things.

It's like someone who believes in faeries and gnomes in the garden. I know they aren't real but I'm curious to hear from people that think they are. See the thing that amazes me is there is NO PROOF in the existence of God, Not one minuscule piece of solid proof. And I'm no sheep, just because thousands believe in heaven and hell I'm not going to blindly get in line and start reaching for the heavens, believing that if I don't accept god into my life I'm going to suffer for eternity in some hell which definition differs from person to person.

It also amazes me that intelligent people can somehow switch off all intelligence and start believing in things that have no more physical substance than a comic book or fairytale.

I have to say this is a disgusting post bruce for so many reasons.

you dont have religious friends because of their preaching, not all religious people try to instill their believes upon others, I myself have quite a cultured group of friends from quite a few different backgrounds whether it be Hindu or Islamic in nature they don't preach it so i find your statement stupid and shallow they dont oppose anyone else's religion and they are never judgemental of anyone else's ideas on things

I myself am Buddhist, its not a religion per se as there is no god but it has some very good morals, which if you do abide by (which I do not entirely) you surely would be a better person for it.

Some People like to have some faith that life has more value than just

birth - life - death

and so be it if it gives them some strength and happiness thats great, the existence of God is irrelevant to the scheme of things, what it does for people, someone as naieve as yourself, you will never understand. You seem to state that if you are religious than you are stupid, that is just retarded.  

yes it fuels bad things such as war and hate in some circumstances but if looked into in the right light it can be a positive thing.


In regards to angels and devils there is no proof fair enuff,
but
there is no proof there is other life forms out there (excluding water on mars etc etc) are you telling me in a universe that is near unfathomable in size that we are the only planet to have life??? there is no evidence but to say that is the case would be silly.

[Dr Woomanchu]

That would be an ecumenical matter.

I am sad in my pants that ICONZ won't let me rep u for that. I have been waiting since the thread started to see it used

[philo-sofa]

That would be an ecumenical matter.

Lol + rep :D

[Ngati_Grim]

OK, I've just got this from a Theologian who teaches Christianity and was also an ordained Minister*. These are the 'Core' tenets of Christianity according to him :

- "Jesus was the son of God?"

YES BUT IS ALSO GOD INCARNATED IS 2ND PERSON
 OF TRINITY

- "Jesus died and was Resurrected?"

YES


- "Jesus was born unto the Virgin Mary (The Nativity) ?"

YES BUT SEEMS TO
 HAVE BEEN EITHER A MISTRANSLATION FROM YOUNG WOMAN AND/OR  USE OF MANY VIRGIN BIRTHS IN ANCIENT WORLD- AS ALSO MANY TALES OF GODS DYING AND RESURRECTING

- "The holy trinity is One (Jesus, God, The holy spirit are one) ?"

 YES,
 BUT THREE IN ONE- ONE GOD, THREE PERSONAS OR ACTIONS

- "Satan exists?"

NOT CORE

- "Heaven exists?"

NOT AS PLACE BUT AS IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD

- "Hell exists?"

NOT AS PLACE BUT AS IN THE ABSENCE OF GOD

- "Angels exist?"

NOT NECESSARY- MANY FAITHS HAVE ANGELS

- "Devils exist?"

NOT NECESSARY- MANY FAITHS HAVE DEVILS

Sorry about the caps as this was a copy and paste from his response to my questions. I forgot to include a couple of them so may ask him presently.

So, it seems that satan, angels, and devils are not core beliefs for one to be called christian. The others are.

Drat, I need to ask him about the dying for sins etc...I suspect those are core though.


ok:
  "Man is naturally sinful"

 IN THE SENSE THAT ALL ARE BORN SEPARATED FROM GOD: ORIGINAL SIN

"Jesus died for Man's sin"

YES- IS CORE- IS NOT SO MUCH JESUS BUT
 GOD TAKING ON TOTAL IDENTIFICATION AND CLOSING THE GAP BY GOD'S SELF
 ACTION


*He can also read Greek and has access to a practicing Jew who can translate Hebrew for him. I respect this fella, not just because he is my brother (!) but because he really knows what he is talking about through years of study and even though he is not a 'believer' as such he approaches things with his head, not his heart and is objective....something I could learn from him, methinks.

[dirtyape]

Very Good. Regarding Satan and the Angels/Devils, yes I guess I would concede that these are mostly personifications and metaphors. In my defence, I didn't really think about that list very hard...

[krasher]

Agrees with my theology on Heaven and Hell by the sounds. Interesting.

[Ngati_Grim]

Agrees with my theology on Heaven and Hell by the sounds. Interesting.

Oh no, Krasher's mainstream! lol

Yeah, I can ask him more questions if others have any.

[brucewillis2]

You're easy to amaze.

when it comes to religion I am incredibly easy to amaze. Why don't you ever challenge your faith? ask for proof instead of just accepting it blindly. Surely once in your lifetime you thought to yourself, why won't god answer my prayers? why won't he turn up and silence all these unbelievers and proof that we haven't been wasting our time? why won't he send jesus down again to help with all the suffering? why won't he do anything to help? has he forgotten us?

tbh, I would LOVE IT if we were all wrong and you were right. I would love to think there is a heaven and its laughter and joy for eternity. That souls continue on. But that's all just hopes and wishes based on nothing but a blind faith that something does exist without any proof whatsoever.

[ThaFleastyler]

That was a great post Ngati I feel like he and I kinda believe close to the same things where those beliefs are concerned.

I'd +rep, but I rep you too much.

[ThaFleastyler]

tbh, I would LOVE IT if we were all wrong and you were right. I would love to think there is a heaven and its laughter and joy for eternity. That souls continue on. But that's all just hopes and wishes based on nothing but a blind faith that something does exist without any proof whatsoever.

Well, with that in mind, here are questions for the NONchristians among us to answer, to see what you guys DO believe in ...

Do you believe in:
- psychics/mediums/clairvoyants?
- ghosts/poltergeists/spirits?
- a soul in any shape/form?
- any kind of telepathic ability (no matter how big or small)?
- any form of spirituality at all?
- any shape/form of God or God-like being?

[ThaFleastyler]

when it comes to religion I am incredibly easy to amaze. Why don't you ever challenge your faith? ask for proof instead of just accepting it blindly. Surely once in your lifetime you thought to yourself, why won't god answer my prayers? why won't he turn up and silence all these unbelievers and proof that we haven't been wasting our time? why won't he send jesus down again to help with all the suffering? why won't he do anything to help? has he forgotten us?

If I could address these questions, even though they were directed to Krash.
I can be honest and tell you that I think about that stuff all the time - the reading I do, the listening that I do, its always at the forefront of my mind. But the truth is, I've seen and directly experienced enough stuff in church and in Christian circles, and heard enough first-hand testimony in regard to answered prayer, that I simply can't conclude anything other than God. Even the way I came to church was unquestionable - I was as far away, maybe further away, from God than you guys are now, and I heard an audible voice that I couldn't attribute to anything other than God (if you want, I'll share the whole story, even though I'm sure I already have somewhere).

The main difference between the Christian and the nonChristian is perspective, I think. Where I see God, others see nothing.

[Privy]

this guy sum's it up for me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

[cobra]

Well, with that in mind, here are questions for the NONchristians among us to answer, to see what you guys DO believe in ...

Do you believe in:
- psychics/mediums/clairvoyants?
- ghosts/poltergeists/spirits?
- a soul in any shape/form?
- any kind of telepathic ability (no matter how big or small)?
- any form of spirituality at all?
- any shape/form of God or God-like being?

no for all - i use the word soul sometimes to describe a persons underlying personality but not as something that is separate to the body

im still waiting on your answers to my questions, or at least a reason for the lack of answers

[Arnifix]

- psychics/mediums/clairvoyants?
- ghosts/poltergeists/spirits?
- a soul in any shape/form?
- any kind of telepathic ability (no matter how big or small)?
- any form of spirituality at all?
- any shape/form of God or God-like being?

There is no proof that any of these things exist, as far as I am aware.

[Dr Woomanchu]

Well, with that in mind, here are questions for the NONchristians among us to answer, to see what you guys DO believe in ...

Do you believe in:
- psychics/mediums/clairvoyants?
- ghosts/poltergeists/spirits?
- a soul in any shape/form?
- any kind of telepathic ability (no matter how big or small)?
- any form of spirituality at all?
- any shape/form of God or God-like being?

Generally I don't believe anything that can't verify for myself if I choose to. Believe meaning I accept it to be true without doubt.

Specifically;
No,
No,
See below,
No,
See below,
See below.

Soul: I think that the mind is seated in the brain but we underestimate the role the whole body cocktail of hormones and sensory input plays in self awareness. I have a suspicion that this will prove a major barrier to developing artificial sentience.

Spirituality: It's a hell of a vague word. I feel very spiritual about many things. The fact that I know this spirituality to be a visceral or emotional response to certain stimuli does nothing to lessen  the effects those moments have on me.

God: It's a human defined term. I will be very suprised if we, or some sentience does not achieve a state that we would define as godlike in todays terms at some point.

Also it is quite possible the universe was created in someway. But if it was the agency that caused it will be a rational explicable one, not some mystical, unseen, unmeasurable, unknowable nothing that exists only through definition and subjective belief.

[Turkish]

There's no proof at all that extraterrestrial life exists elsewhere in the universe, yet with the sheer size of the universe you would be pretty naive not to believe there is.

You can't give physical evidence that consciousness, or dreams exist, yet they do.

Just because something may or may not be proveable by the scientific method doesn't mean it does not exist or is not plausible. Any true scientist can admit that.

Start thinking outside the box, all of the greatest philosophers in our history did and do, why can't you?

God: It's a human defined term. I will be very suprised if we, or some sentience does not achieve a state that we would define as godlike in todays terms at some point.

How would that happen exactly?

Also it is quite possible the universe was created in someway. But if it was the agency that caused it will be a rational explicable one, not some mystical, unseen, unmeasurable, unknowable nothing that exists only through definition and subjective belief.

What makes you say that? If we were to look at the universe based solely on rationale, we wouldn't believe the universe existed!

[Dr Woomanchu]

There's no proof at all that extraterrestrial life exists elsewhere in the universe, yet with the sheer size of the universe you would be pretty naive not to believe there is.

You can't give physical evidence that consciousness, or dreams exist, yet they do.
......

What makes you say that? If we were to look at the universe based solely on rationale, we wouldn't believe the universe existed!

I'd be surprised if life as we understand it does not exist elsewhere in the universe. Sentient life?? Just not enough information. I would not be surprised with an answer either way.

There is plenty of physical evidence that dreams and consciousness exist. People who think about a certain image will have a measurable response in their brains electrical activity in predictable and definable areas, and electrically stimulating certain areas of the brain will cause people to experience sensory hallucinations just like those we experience in dreams.

I'm not sure what your last statement means. The universe does exist. Belief is irrelevant.

[Arnifix]

There is physical evidence that consciousness and dreams exist. Doctors can easily identify an unconscious brain, or a brain that is dreaming.

As for a godlike sentience, AM more than qualifies in my mind. Even some of the existing surveillance systems found in places like England come close to a godlike state of omnipotence.

[Turkish]

I'm not sure what your last statement means. The universe does exist. Belief is irrelevant.

I think what I mean is, the universe and nature is just so unbelievable, so mind boggling, in some ways it almost takes a further stretch of imagination to think/believe it could have some completely naturalistic, materialistic, scientific cause as opposed to some kind of supernatural cause. In my opinion.

I was sort of borrowing the idea from this quote:

If we were to judge nature by common sense or likelihood, we wouldn't believe the world existed. --Annie Dillard

Well, I guess it is believable because the universe does exist, but you know what I mean... it's pretty crazy to think about how all it got here, how it is now and how everythings works ect.

[Dr Woomanchu]

I think what I mean is, the universe and nature is just so unbelievable, so mind boggling, in some ways it almost takes a further stretch of imagination to think/believe it could have some completely naturalistic, materialistic, scientific cause as opposed to some kind of supernatural cause. In my opinion.

I was sort of borrowing the idea from this quote:

Ah OK. I get you.  My approach is completely different.  Given the laws the universe operates under, which we have been observing, measuring and deducing since we first became self aware, the universe is not only explicable but inevitable.

There is nothing unlikely, unbelievable or bizarre about the universe at all. Everything we have managed to observe makes complete sense, and it is precisely because all the observations we make are explicable, comprehensible and repeatable, that I find the god concept so ridiculous. He just doesn't fit the universe we live in.

I disagree with that quote completely BTW

[Turkish]

Ah OK. I get you.  My approach is completely different.  Given the laws the universe operates under, which we have been observing, measuring and deducing since we first became self aware, the universe is not only explicable but inevitable.

That is merely opinion though to be honest, and a number of scientists, particulary physicists, would probably disagree with you on that.

There is nothing unlikely, unbelievable or bizarre about the universe at all. Everything we have managed to observe makes complete sense, and it is precisely because all the observations we make are explicable, comprehensible and repeatable, that I find the god concept so ridiculous. He just doesn't fit the universe we live in.

Aswell that...

I guess it comes down to different viewpoints, or which scientists you choose to listen to or ignore since there is no definitive answer at this point in time. (possibly never, for that matter...)

[Slim]

To be fair, the fact that we as humans have developed from single celled organisms, yet alone an explosion of matter called the big bang, blows my goddamn mind.

Do I believe that we were made by God like the bible describes: no, that would be insane.  But who is to say that there is no intelligent design in the process of evolution.  I know that the evolution vs creationism thing has been done to death, and I don't want to start it up again, but to say that we understand everything is pretty unfair.  

I think, to be honest, you'll find we understand incredibly little.  Its just that we as a race, like to talk so much, and so loudly, about what we do know that a lot of people simply take this as believing that we know everything.

On a side note, I'd just like to make the observation on how good this thread has become since Psyche's ban came into order.