Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[robbyx]

Comtemplate this.....

What would happen if the bible was somehow magically proven to be totally factual, if it was proven to be correct and an actual account of events ?
Heaven and hell actually do exist as described in the bible, same with angels and demons etc.

Would this change the way you live ?
How would it affect world politics ?
Would murderers still murder, rapists still rape etc ?
How would other religions deal with it ?
How would fundamentalists deal with it ?...crusade ?
How would fundamentalists from other religions deal with it ?

Remember, this is the actual bible that is factual, which means homosexuality is a sin, so is sex before marrige, drinking of alcohol and anything else that is detrimental to your health or the well being of the planet.

I showed a mate this thread, he read the last 5 pages or so...and asked these questions...and hes realy keen to see what you guys say.

[Turkish]

Why can't it all be a product of evolution.

Justify how you can think the universe and reality in it's entirety can be solely the 'product of evolution', in technical detail with documented scientific arguments and quotes from a wide range of respected scientists that support it. Then I will answer.

[Ngati_Grim]

Justify how you can think the universe and reality in it's entirety can be solely the 'product of evolution', in technical detail with documented scientific arguments and quotes from a wide range of respected scientists that support it. Then I will answer.

Haha, touche...sort of...

Well, it will take a bit of time as I've got work and life, so don't hold your breath...but I will attempt.

[nick247]

seriously What the fuck!

If it was anyone else writing the stuff that turkish is you guys would all be polite and faaaaar more toned down in your responses

talk about jumping on the we hate psyche band wagon

All the shit that you guys are criticising him for, you have done the exact same thing in your responses, if not worse

Do i disagree with him, yeah i do. Does that mean the theory he has raised is not interesting and of no merit. NO it doesnt

Its a good theory that offers some evidence to support the idea of intelligent design. Are there other theories out there that can also explain yeah there is like the whole randomness is possible theory.

At least he has backed down a little and said it only raises some questions and increases the slight possibility of intelligent design as opposed to some of you other guys who are jumping right out and claiming he is COMPLETELY WRONG....fuck that

and your fucking arguing over how many scientists believe in something as to whether it is true or not, WHAT THE FUCK IS WITH THAT.............you should be looking at the logic of what is infront of you, and finding holes in that logic that either make it less or more possible that your own theory is correct

[nick247]

so psyches argument is that within the universe there are many, what could be considered, coincidences, and that there are so many of them that they could be interpreted as being the result of intelligent design

In response the main argument seems to be that what is seen as coincidental may simply be nature being nature and doing what it does, and that the universe and its existance are entirely possible without help because as long as there is a single percentage chance that the universe can work then it can/and will/ AND DID happen. THis is my belief....when dealing with infinity there are no surprises

Psyche seems to be responding back that the existance of nature and the way nature works could be that largest coincidence of them all and be the result of more than just random chance.

either way its a very circular argument where ABSOLUTLY NOONE should be dealing with absolutes.

everything i have encountered so far in life can be explained in naturalist terms - that includes years of scientific study and in depth discussions with people who have studied different disciplines of science - no need for the super natural

taking the above into account your reply cobra here kinda sucks

this is hardly a very convincing argument to say "therefore i am very sure there is no intelligent design"

To attack psyches method of arguing when you offer stuff like the above is extremely hypocritical, now i wouldnt normally have a problem with it except that you are now resorting to abusing psyche when he hasnt even said anything that bad or even argued that irrationally

I mean if he gets abuse for his arguments then on that scale what would you deserve?

Justify how you can think the universe and reality in it's entirety can be solely the 'product of evolution', in technical detail with documented scientific arguments and quotes from a wide range of respected scientists that support it. Then I will answer.

ummm no that would not be a good idea for this particular form of debate nor is it needed nor should it be encouraged

We dont need scientists explaining things in science terms and then comparing which scientist is better. We should be looking at the underlying logic of the situation.

Why didnt you just say "where would it evolve from?" and "could the process of evolution perhaps be guided by those coincidences i talk about"

[Arnifix]

and your fucking arguing over how many scientists believe in something as to whether it is true or not, WHAT THE FUCK IS WITH THAT.............you should be looking at the logic of what is infront of you, and finding holes in that logic that either make it less or more possible that your own theory is correct

He doesn't listen to logic Nick. Several of us have gone over exactly what is wrong with this theory. He doesn't even understand that what he is proposing is intelligent design.

[nick247]

He doesn't listen to logic Nick. Several of us have gone over exactly what is wrong with this theory. He doesn't even understand that what he is proposing is intelligent design.

So ask him what he means by intelligent design so far ive seen you guys try and say "oh you mean it like this dont you, thats wrong"

and you havent gone over what is wrong with the theory, you guys have thrown out some interesting holes and seen things from a different view point and then told him "therefore you are completely wrong" when none of your evidence or logic gets near being able to make that statement.

His theory isnt WRONG, it makes some sense, the same as the other theories. If his theory by the logic displayed here is wrong, then by the same measure so are all the other theories.

AND he hasnt even been that bad to deserve some of the more "personal" attacks on him that ive seen (not really that bad but much worse than anything ive seen him do yet)

[philo-sofa]

Comtemplate this.....

What would happen if the bible was somehow magically proven to be totally factual, if it was proven to be correct and an actual account of events ?
Heaven and hell actually do exist as described in the bible, same with angels and demons etc.

Hmm.. my guesses -

Would this change the way you live ?


 - I'd possibly convert, depending on exactly which contradictions in the Bible were true, else I'd... want a debate with God.  Any conversion would out of fear and a probable hope eventually God entered me in a straight way and I became one with him in an equally non sinful way.


How would it affect world politics ?


 - Well, politicians as they are now would be nearly extinct... We'd end up with a lot of Theocracies.


Would murderers still murder, rapists still rape etc ?


 - Not as much perhaps, but I think a lot of 'congentital' or strongly conditioned ones would still do it and either not care or plan on seeking forgiveness.


How would other religions deal with it ?


- They'd all fracture internally I guess, some followers would accept the 'truth' and some wouldn't, would say it depends on the evidence but that's not always the case.


How would fundamentalists deal with it?...crusade ?


- Some might look more carefully at the new testament, others would want to crusade.


How would fundamentalists from other religions deal with it ?


See above answer fro 'how would other religions deal with it' but with less acceptance.

seriously What the fuck!

If it was anyone else writing the stuff that turkish is you guys would all be polite and faaaaar more toned down in your responses

talk about jumping on the we hate psyche band wagon


At least he has backed down a little and said it only raises some questions and increases the slight possibility of intelligent design as opposed to some of you other guys who are jumping right out and claiming he is COMPLETELY WRONG....fuck that

and your fucking arguing over how many scientists believe in something as to whether it is true or not, WHAT THE FUCK IS WITH THAT.............you should be looking at the logic of what is infront of you, and finding holes in that logic that either make it less or more possible that your own theory is correct

I have to agree with Arni; Psyche's just a dickhead.  It's taken him about six months to change tack slightly on what he says. He uses logic and truth in the same way Fox news does, and has the same regard for it.  He doesn't understand what he's talking about, he's insultingly idiotic and TBH he's at the breaking point once again that nearly gotten him banned twice.  If he actually changes his spots and makes sense, repects other people's opinions and listens I'll apologise to him and buy him a makeup present of up to $500 value - but he hasn't and I believe in no uncertain terms that he won't.

If you'd tried to reason with him over the last two hundred posts as many of us have, Nick, you'd be pulling the damnned bandwagon while shouting "all aboard - and bring plenty of ammo!!".

AND he hasnt even been that bad to deserve some of the more "personal" attacks on him that ive seen (not really that bad but much worse than anything ive seen him do yet)

He's done so continuously over the last few months - hence this third or fourth pseudonym.  Personally I just can't stand him anymore, and with respect you either don't seem to realise who he is, or haven't actually read the incredibly personal crap he's written in the past, you may not have been there, but that makes it no less the case.

[Arnifix]

His theory isnt WRONG, it makes some sense, the same as the other theories. If his theory by the logic displayed here is wrong, then by the same measure so are all the other theories.

Ok. It is highly unlikely, and scientifically unsound, so much so that I see no reason to consider it as a possibility without further evidence. The onus is not upon the reader to provide evidence, as anybody with a high school education knows.

As for "why are you guys so mean to him" which is essentially what your next paragraph was about, he is banned from these forums. The very fact that he insists on creating new accounts and coming back is more than enough reason to treat him like the piece of shit he is.

[Black Heart]

Justify how you can think the universe and reality in it's entirety can be solely the 'product of evolution'

simple really.

The preuniverse state of teh anomally was pure energy, without bounds or laws that are our known universe. this energy was is constant fluctuation of state because thats what energy is, in every form even inside our universe energy is not static. As this energy chaotically fluctuated eventually it became in the state that allowed matter/energies of our universe (electromagnetism/gravity, etc), this instantly became unstable and the event known as the big bang occurred, effectively locking the singularity into the energy states we know ( probably many more we know nothing about)

add time.

here we are.

[nick247]

If you'd tried to reason with him over the last two hundred posts as many of us have, Nick, you'd be pulling the damnned bandwagon while shouting "all aboard - and bring plenty of ammo!!".

hahaahah omg im still laughing

that is sooo me,i completely agree with that

i think i even came into this thread again just to see what this psyche guy was posting cos i saw all the deleted and hosed threads lol

i was keen to get on the bandwagon, i guess i was just disappointed by it lol was expecting more crazy shit from him

[Zarkov]

I'm afraid Turkish has had to go.

He was reporting you guys for harassment so it was you lot or him.

It was a hard choice, could have gone either way actually.

[Arnifix]

I'm afraid Turkish has had to go.

He was reporting you guys for harassment so it was you lot or him.

It was a hard choice, could have gone either way actually.

We are terrible people. That we exist is proof the universe isn't finely tuned.

[ThumbsUpGuy]

My ideal apocalypse (from Terry Pratchett's "The Last Continent"):

An almighty deity parts the clouds and looks down through the heavens at us and speaks these words of wisdom: "Damn, are you lot still here?"

Oh and Turkish, I'm christian and even I think your an idiot. :knife:

[KiLL3r]

I'm afraid Turkish has had to go.

He was reporting you guys for harassment so it was you lot or him.

It was a hard choice, could have gone either way actually.

so what is he upto now? 10-11 bans? I know whos getting an iconz award this year

[philo-sofa]

I'm afraid Turkish has had to go.

He was reporting you guys for harassment so it was you lot or him.

It was a hard choice, could have gone either way actually.

In some ways if he could have taken half his offensiveness and converted it to intelligence he would have been good. I'd like to have a real pro I.D. person to discuss things with.


However the ethics of just getting ri...

O fuck it, cheers Zarkov

[dirtyape]

That's something only you can come to on your own terms, all the evidence and information is out there if you choose not to  dismiss it due to your own predispositions.

I have no predisposition against ID or for M-theory. I look at evidence based on it's merit. I have yet to hear you say anything profound or new that proves anything I haven't already explored and discarded.

And the fact you ignore new data (Hello - 1 in 4) in pursuit of your own predispositions (goddunit) makes me wonder if you are in fact describing yourself instead of me.

Have you asked yourself why you are so determined to prove the multiverse theory? Judging by your posts it sounds like you have some particular agenda or motivation to try and prove such a theory, despite the theory being outside any kind of real scientific enquiry which you completely rely upon.

Curiosity probably. I like to know how things work. Incidentally, I also try and prove God exists. But, well, it's much harder to do while still making sense and using logic. I did come up with an intergration between M-theory and God though, describing god in a multiverse using logic. Lots of assumptions though. So, it was pretty bad really, worse than your standard goddunit as it also guessed at M-Theory.

I have no problem with the multiverse theory really, if that happened to be the process of how this universe was created, then so be it. You still can't tell me that ordered structure, intelligence and information can arise from a series of seemingly random and completely coincidental processes which you seem to be postulating.

I don't think you quite get it. If God did design this universe he done it in such a way that it included evolution of life. Which for a 4+ dimensionally aware entity probably wouldn't be much of a issue.

Most people seem to have this big drama at accepting evolution of life because it is such a gradual thing. Gradual being the key word here, it relies on time. And we can't see time. We can't even imagine 4D. It's impossible.

Let's forget about infinite regression for now.

Now if God designed this universe, which is 4D, then he must have 5D awareness (in order have perspective to see 4D in it's entirety), which means that there must be a 6D in order to support his existence (as you can't be aware of the dimension you exist it). Hey we have the start of a multiverse. We now have a possibility of our universe having multiple endings. Each ending is slightly different.

You god theory demands a multi-verse. I'm surprised you didn't realise this. Perhaps you were predisposed.

:cheese:

Where did I say that?

When you said that Intelligence was the only reasonable explanation for existence. The term "God" means nothing really, I'll concede that. I must try to remember not to use it. But you weren't making that point were you.

Which quotes are you talking about?

So you quoted a passage from Dawkins and that somehow means that Dawkins advocates ID despite the fact that Dawkins' entire career is dedicated to the contrary? And is he in your list of scientists that support ID?

Speculation based on compelling evidence?

And your evidence is that life is complex therefore god exists. Brilliant. I am not compelled by this argument.

The very foundation of philosophy is based upon speculation.

Logic is also a philosophy and that is certainly not speculative. So.. hmmm

No. And what is the neg rep for? Grow up (whoever that is, if it's not you)

I only neg rep when people deserve it, you are merely stating you opinion and there's nothing wrong with that.

Tell that to the many scientists that agree with the fine-tuning argument.

Don't make me post that link again... Science doesn't give up as easy as you do. Science demands real answers.

Um, no. This is a failure to understand the fine tuning argument on your behalf.

I think you'll find it is a failure to accept the argument based on it's merit, not a failure to understand it.

You seem to think that man has computed the outcomes of every single possible universe. This appears to be the crux of your argument.

When you hear scientists describing this fine tuning they are doing so removed from a multiverse because science hasn't proven such a thing exists. (God needs a multi-verse don't forget that).

The fine-tuning argument is accepted by the majority of scientists worldwide, it is not a proponent of Intelligent Design, it is a scientific principle.

When read a book do you only pay attention to the words you like? Just wondering... and you seem to like putting words in peoples mouths.

You honestly believe a tornado could form a complex structure as a jumbo jet? How exactly do you come to this conclusion?

I'm disappointed by your lack of vision.

And the evidence seems to be extremely compelling to the majority of scientists, so if it's good enough for them then it is good enough for me.

So you keep saying... as if it makes it true...

[robbyx]

Ape, hes been banned....but good work on the massive response.

[Zarkov]

Ape, hes been banned....but good work on the massive response.

It was him or Arnie.

maybe we should have had a vote.

[robbyx]

It was him or Arnie.

maybe we should have had a vote.

Voting is for pussy's (no pun intended)...dictatorship FTW !!!!

[Black Heart]

both 4 the lols.

[Dr Woomanchu]

We are terrible people. That we exist is proof the universe isn't finely tuned.

Magnificent

In some ways if he could have taken half his offensiveness and converted it to intelligence he would have been good. I'd like to have a real pro I.D. person to discuss things with.

Oxymoron I'm afraid.

Now if God designed this universe, which is 4D, then he must have 5D awareness (in order have perspective to see 4D in it's entirety), which means that there must be a 6D in order to support his existence (as you can't be aware of the dimension you exist it). Hey we have the start of a multiverse. We now have a possibility of our universe having multiple endings. Each ending is slightly different.

You god theory demands a multi-verse. I'm surprised you didn't realise this. Perhaps you were predisposed.

*standing ovation*

This thread rocks sometimes. People having intellects and using them is almost arousing.

[brucewillis2]

Comtemplate this.....

What would happen if the bible was somehow magically proven to be totally factual, if it was proven to be correct and an actual account of events ?
Heaven and hell actually do exist as described in the bible, same with angels and demons etc.

Would this change the way you live ?

it would change my life. If god came down and showed hell to be a place of torture and pain for eternity I would drop to my knees and worship the lord. I'd be marrying girls all the time for sex and adopt the Christian life of singing hymns, praying, and whatever other exciting things christian's do at church.

I don't believe in god because there is nothing to believe in. A bible, it's just a book written thousands of years ago and gone through some alterations along the way I'm sure. I'm hardly going to change my life for a book. But if god came down and performed miracles - now that's another story.

[ThumbsUpGuy]

it would change my life. If god came down and showed hell to be a place of torture and pain for eternity I would drop to my knees and worship the lord. I'd be marrying girls all the time for sex and adopt the Christian life of singing hymns, praying, and whatever other exciting things christian's do at church.

I don't believe in god because there is nothing to believe in. A bible, it's just a book written thousands of years ago and gone through some alterations along the way I'm sure. I'm hardly going to change my life for a book. But if god came down and performed miracles - now that's another story.

Excellent I'll page him.

But seriously, all we have to confirm most of our history is books, most of them less credible than the bible (read "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh Mcdowell for more info on this). I find that there is three different ways of looking at history: 1. everything in every book ever written about anything that happened in the past is a lie (extremist but not un-heard of). 2. All books with some credibility have an element of truth or 3. You can pick and choose what you believe is real. Obviously number three is the most common although there are other factors in what we choose to believe that sway us one way or another such as media and upbringing.

[robbyx]

I don't believe in god because there is nothing to believe in. A bible, it's just a book written thousands of years ago and gone through some alterations along the way I'm sure. I'm hardly going to change my life for a book. But if god came down and performed miracles - now that's another story.

Yea but im talking about a hypothetical situation where the bible has been proven to be fact...and thus God does exist....and he did indeed create the Earth , universe and all things etc etc......pretty bloody miraculous if you ask me.