Topic: Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

Offline UppityDuck

  • Addicted
  • UppityDuck has no influence.
  • Posts: 2,185
Cool, I was hoping that another meaty discussion would come forth...


and boy, does this day need cool things!

Reply #6175 Posted: January 08, 2009, 02:17:01 pm
A mere friend will agree with you, but a real friend will argue.

Russian Proverb

Offline Nyan

  • Addicted
  • Nyan has no influence.
  • Posts: 3,200
I was reading a book today and i realised that the Bible and science sort of agree with each other about the age of the earth and the universe.

It says in the bible the earth was created in seven days, But it also says that to god, time doesn't exist. 7 days was just a way of making it comprehensible to us.

Going by that the earth very well could be so many millions of years old that it has been said to be.

Your thoughts?

Reply #6176 Posted: January 08, 2009, 02:36:14 pm

Offline krasher

  • Addicted
  • krasher has no influence.
  • Posts: 2,057
Quote from: UppityDuck;864955
Cool, I was hoping that another meaty discussion would come forth...


and boy, does this day need cool things!

You're a good sport. I hope you find something cool for your day :)

Reply #6177 Posted: January 08, 2009, 02:37:50 pm
=]IRBS[=

i5 2500k|GTX560ti|GA-Z68X-UD3|8Gig DDR3 1600|24" LG 19x12|650W Corsair|64GB SSD Cache WD640





Offline Tiwaking!

  • Hero Member
  • Tiwaking! is awe-inspiring!Tiwaking! is awe-inspiring!Tiwaking! is awe-inspiring!Tiwaking! is awe-inspiring!Tiwaking! is awe-inspiring!Tiwaking! is awe-inspiring!Tiwaking! is awe-inspiring!Tiwaking! is awe-inspiring!Tiwaking! is awe-inspiring!Tiwaking! is awe-inspiring!Tiwaking! is awe-inspiring!Tiwaking! is awe-inspiring!
  • Posts: 12,584
Quote from: Tiwaking!;864511
That program "Chasing God" was also crap for another reason: They didnt speak to God! There are lots of Gods alive today, not just Messiahs and Prophets. Fully fledged Avatars. Come to think of it, they didnt speak to any Messiahs or Prophets either

It occurs to me that most(practically ALL) people in this forum have no idea about the number of people who have at one time or another been claimed to be divine I've decided to make a list of human avatars. Since an actual list would be quite long I've narrowed it down to only Gods Incarnate who are still alive

Hallowed be their names!

Jehovah Wanyonyi - God-King of Kenya. Sent Aids to earth as punishment on humanity for defying his commandments.
Quote
The 77-year-old Jehovah has more than 25 wives, some as young as 16, who have produced his 95 children. His religion, with an estimated 1,000 people, has existed for more than 40 years and is currently registered under the name of "Lost Israelites".


Matayoshi Jesus - http://cgunson.com/extras/matayoshi.html Japanese Political candidate. He's got my vote. I dont want to die in firey death!
Quote
After the Upper House Election, Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi should hand the seat of the Prime Minister to Jesus Matayoshi, the one true God. If he cannot, he should cut his belly and die. Jesus Matayoshi, the one true God, will throw him into the fiery depths of hell. The reason is that before you kill another person you should die yourself. The same goes to those voters who do not vote for Jesus Matayoshi, the one true God. You will understand the specific reason in election advertisements.


Claude Vorilhon - Founder and head of the Church of Raelism. Truly the only person directly sent from heaven to lead us to the promised land

Vissarion(Sergey Anatolyevitch Torop) - Founder and head of "Church of the Last Testament". Truly the reincarnation of Jesus. Praise be unto Vissarion!
[video]u1ux5IyW2nM[/video]

Nirmala Srivastava - Founder of Sahaja Yoga and incarnation of the Adi Shakti, Lord Indras consort, true bringer to the end of the Kali Yuga

And finally, the one true and only God-King: Most powerful ruler of heaven and earth


Prince Philip
Quote
Legend had it that there was a clutch of villages on the island of Tanna in Vanuatu which - as bizarre as it may seem - worshipped Prince Philip as a god.

Reply #6178 Posted: January 08, 2009, 03:02:46 pm
I am now banned from GetSome

Offline UppityDuck

  • Addicted
  • UppityDuck has no influence.
  • Posts: 2,185
Quote from: A©idBµrn;864967
I was reading a book today and i realised that the Bible and science sort of agree with each other about the age of the earth and the universe.

Which book?
Just curious.

Quote from: A©idBµrn;864967
It says in the bible the earth was created in seven days, But it also says that to god, time doesn't exist. 7 days was just a way of making it comprehensible to us.

We can also understand years and decades etc so it's insulting our intelligence to say that seven days was a way of making it comprehensible

Quote from: A©idBµrn;864967
Going by that the earth very well could be so many millions of years old that it has been said to be.

I'm still trying to work out what you're saying here.



....and the old 'going by that...' argument is chocker full of assumptions.

Quote from: A©idBµrn;864967
Your thoughts?

See above

Reply #6179 Posted: January 08, 2009, 03:05:34 pm
A mere friend will agree with you, but a real friend will argue.

Russian Proverb

Offline Nyan

  • Addicted
  • Nyan has no influence.
  • Posts: 3,200
Quote from: UppityDuck;864985
Which book?
Just curious.

One of them is called The next world war, Its about the conflict between the middle east and the western world.


Quote
We can also understand years and decades etc so it's insulting our intelligence to say that seven days was a way of making it comprehensible

Its not insulting, I dont know everything and i dont know why it was put in days but i guess thats what was chosen.

Quote
I'm still trying to work out what you're saying here.
....and the old 'going by that...' argument is chocker full of assumptions.

See above

To put it in better terms, A lot of things in the bible coincide with scientific findings.

Theres really no reason why you cant believe two things. I believe quite a lot of the research that has come about but im also christian.

Reply #6180 Posted: January 08, 2009, 03:15:29 pm

Offline UppityDuck

  • Addicted
  • UppityDuck has no influence.
  • Posts: 2,185
Quote from: AŠidBľrn;864999
One of them is called The next world war, Its about the conflict between the middle east and the western world.


 The Roy M. Woodbridge, James Adams,Grant R. Jeffrey, or Tōda Ishimaru & Byken Matsukawa version?




Quote from: AŠidBľrn;864999
Its not insulting, I dont know everything and i dont know why it was put in days but i guess thats what was chosen.


It just seems like an 'arbitrary' time to me...
"how long did it take him, again?"
"Oh, about a week"



Quote from: AŠidBľrn;864999
To put it in better terms, A lot of things in the bible coincide with scientific findings.



There are also a lot that don't.

Quote from: AŠidBľrn;864999
Theres really no reason why you cant believe two things. I believe quite a lot of the research that has come about but im also christian.


There's no reason, at all. Reason doesn't come into a lot of the decisions we make about belief.

Reply #6181 Posted: January 08, 2009, 03:25:01 pm
A mere friend will agree with you, but a real friend will argue.

Russian Proverb

Offline Arnifix

  • Hero Member
  • Arnifix has an aura about them.Arnifix has an aura about them.Arnifix has an aura about them.Arnifix has an aura about them.Arnifix has an aura about them.Arnifix has an aura about them.Arnifix has an aura about them.Arnifix has an aura about them.Arnifix has an aura about them.Arnifix has an aura about them.
  • Posts: 15,219
That thing you posted on faith was amazing.

And the seven days thing is a classic storytelling technique. After three, seven is the most popular number of "things" in storytelling.

Reply #6182 Posted: January 08, 2009, 04:42:03 pm

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Offline cobra

  • Devoted Member
  • cobra has no influence.
  • Posts: 1,367
Quote from: AŠidBľrn;864999

To put it in better terms, A lot of things in the bible coincide with scientific findings.


this is a half truth, a lot of things in the bible can be interpreted in a way that make them seem that they coincide with scientific findings - why has the bible never been used to work out new scientific theories and can you use it to predict discoveries that will found in the future?

Reply #6183 Posted: January 08, 2009, 04:45:30 pm

Offline TofuEater

  • Hero Member
  • TofuEater barely matters.TofuEater barely matters.
  • Posts: 12,295
Quote from: UppityDuck;864379
Were they Rabbis or Mullahs?

Japanese who say they are the descendants of Jesus

There was a fascinating program on the History channel the other day that ended with Jesus apparently dying in Pakistan - where he'd lived to around 86 years old. They showed a crypt which was apparently where he was buried.

The 'legend' was discovered by a Russian doctor called Notovitch: http://reluctant-messenger.com/issa.htm

Reply #6184 Posted: January 08, 2009, 05:02:20 pm
Quote from: Fran O\'Sullivan
The best thing about Finance Minister Bill English\'s latest Budget is that it does finally signal a much greater role for the private sector in the New Zealand economy. And another step along the way to extract this country from the political cul-de-sac in which Helen Clark\'s Labour Government parked us.

Offline UppityDuck

  • Addicted
  • UppityDuck has no influence.
  • Posts: 2,185
Interesting link there Tofu...not entirely suprising given the knowldge they had of the 'world' at that time.

Reply #6185 Posted: January 08, 2009, 06:30:56 pm
A mere friend will agree with you, but a real friend will argue.

Russian Proverb

Offline ThaFleastyler

  • Addicted
  • ThaFleastyler barely matters.ThaFleastyler barely matters.
  • Posts: 3,803
Quote from: krasher;864951
stuff he said in his long post
Very nice read there krash :)

The link I posted about 70+ pages back from New Scientist also argues that religious belief and faith do not have a negative effect on practitioners. I'll try and find it again.

Edit: Gutted - I think its on my work PC.

Reply #6186 Posted: January 08, 2009, 06:47:29 pm

Offline Zhija

  • Just settled in
  • Zhija has no influence.
  • Posts: 468
Quote from: UppityDuck;865009

It just seems like an 'arbitrary' time to me...
"how long did it take him, again?"
"Oh, about a week"


The reason that the number 7 comes up a lot in the Bible is that there is an error in the translation. The translation for the number 7 should actually be read as "Many" rather than 7.

Reply #6187 Posted: January 08, 2009, 07:05:39 pm

Offline Bell

  • Addicted
  • Bell is on the verge of being accepted.Bell is on the verge of being accepted.Bell is on the verge of being accepted.Bell is on the verge of being accepted.Bell is on the verge of being accepted.
  • Posts: 4,263
Quote from: ThaFleastyler;865107
Very nice read there krash :)

The link I posted about 70+ pages back from New Scientist also argues that religious belief and faith do not have a negative effect on practitioners. I'll try and find it again.

Indeed, its just like how arguably believing in Santa Claus actually has a positive effect on children, it surely doesn't have a negative effect.
Think of how good it made you feel when you believed that a magical man was going to deliver awesome new toys for you.

I Guess a similar effect can be said on believing a magical man is giving you the thumbs up everytime you do something good.
And the calming feeling it must have on you when you lose someone you love and believe they have gone to a magical place where all your dreams come true.

I'd love to go back to believing in Santa Claus and believing in a god that will teach bad people and lesson and will reward me for being good.
And that everyone will get what they deserve and the world is a just place.

I should have never questioned anything :(

Ignorance is bliss, just look at the happy children.

Reply #6188 Posted: January 08, 2009, 07:50:46 pm

Offline krasher

  • Addicted
  • krasher has no influence.
  • Posts: 2,057
EFT
Quote from: Bell;865151
Bla bla bla bla change the topic and miss the point

EFF

Reply #6189 Posted: January 08, 2009, 08:42:06 pm
=]IRBS[=

i5 2500k|GTX560ti|GA-Z68X-UD3|8Gig DDR3 1600|24" LG 19x12|650W Corsair|64GB SSD Cache WD640





Offline cobra

  • Devoted Member
  • cobra has no influence.
  • Posts: 1,367
Quote from: krasher;865175
not understand Bell analogy and miss Bell's point


eft

Reply #6190 Posted: January 08, 2009, 08:52:06 pm

Offline krasher

  • Addicted
  • krasher has no influence.
  • Posts: 2,057
Quote from: Krasher;865183
Sick of going in circles and is feeling dizzy

One Character

Reply #6191 Posted: January 08, 2009, 09:30:28 pm
=]IRBS[=

i5 2500k|GTX560ti|GA-Z68X-UD3|8Gig DDR3 1600|24" LG 19x12|650W Corsair|64GB SSD Cache WD640





Offline nick247

  • Addicted
  • nick247 has no influence.
  • Posts: 2,625
Quote from: krasher;865175
EFF



you missed the relevence krasher, by relating the same effects to something that i would assume you yourself would call ridiculous (believing in santa) bell has given you a way of seeing things from our point of view, put our view in terms of something you can understand and relate with

there might be positive effects of believing in religion but that doesnt legitimise it anymore than believing in santa would

Reply #6192 Posted: January 08, 2009, 09:55:54 pm

Offline Bell

  • Addicted
  • Bell is on the verge of being accepted.Bell is on the verge of being accepted.Bell is on the verge of being accepted.Bell is on the verge of being accepted.Bell is on the verge of being accepted.
  • Posts: 4,263
Quote from: krasher;865175
EFF

Wasn't your point that believing what ever you want to believe with no evidence (aka faith) can have a positive effect on your personal well being?

Because if so I agree.

Reply #6193 Posted: January 08, 2009, 10:36:01 pm

Offline UppityDuck

  • Addicted
  • UppityDuck has no influence.
  • Posts: 2,185
The latest issue of COSMOS magazine (which is a good 'entry-level' Science magazine from Australia) has a letter which I will quote parts of:

Quote
...To suggest the word 'theory' should no longer be used due to the misunderstanding of its true meaning by the public is tantamount to the idea that "it must be right because so many people think that way".
I am actually pleased that evolution opponents say "it's only a theory..." - it gives me a talking point n class, and no student leaving my class would dare to show their scientific ignorance in this way. I warn students to beware of arguments with "scientists believe..." or "it is only a theory..." as it usually means that whatb follows is unlikely to have a scientific basis.....


So, it appears that my post calling someone ignorant was deleted because of some perceived 'abuse', when in fact, given the evidence, it was an entirely justified call. :rnr:

Reply #6194 Posted: January 09, 2009, 08:16:39 am
A mere friend will agree with you, but a real friend will argue.

Russian Proverb

Offline Nyan

  • Addicted
  • Nyan has no influence.
  • Posts: 3,200
Quote from: Zhija;865126
The reason that the number 7 comes up a lot in the Bible is that there is an error in the translation. The translation for the number 7 should actually be read as "Many" rather than 7.

Where did you get that assumption from? Seven is the number of God, Three is the Holy Trinity, Six is Hell/Satan and Four is Man. I'm not sure on One, Two, and Five but I'm sure Google will help me in seconds.

Reply #6195 Posted: January 09, 2009, 02:41:49 pm

Offline Zhija

  • Just settled in
  • Zhija has no influence.
  • Posts: 468
It's not an assumption.

My mother has done a degree in all this stuff and I picked up a few things.

Reply #6196 Posted: January 09, 2009, 03:06:19 pm

Offline Zarkov

  • Cat

  • Zarkov is awe-inspiring!Zarkov is awe-inspiring!Zarkov is awe-inspiring!Zarkov is awe-inspiring!Zarkov is awe-inspiring!Zarkov is awe-inspiring!Zarkov is awe-inspiring!Zarkov is awe-inspiring!Zarkov is awe-inspiring!Zarkov is awe-inspiring!Zarkov is awe-inspiring!Zarkov is awe-inspiring!
  • Posts: 13,175
Quote from: UppityDuck;865349
The latest issue of COSMOS magazine (which is a good 'entry-level' Science magazine from Australia) has a letter which I will quote parts of:



So, it appears that my post calling someone ignorant was deleted because of some perceived 'abuse', when in fact, given the evidence, it was an entirely justified call. :rnr:



Can't see any deletions for the previous 3 pages.

You should be called Paranoid Duck.

Reply #6197 Posted: January 09, 2009, 04:09:20 pm

Offline UppityDuck

  • Addicted
  • UppityDuck has no influence.
  • Posts: 2,185
Nice one Zhija.

So, Acid, do you 'believe' in numerology?
Are you superstitious?
I suspect superstitions are cultural and different numbers will mean different things in different cultures.

Cultural superstitions 1

[/quote]In traditional Chinese superstition, the numerical digit 8 is associated with prosperity and good luck and the digit 4 is associated with death. An examination of the price endings used in a sample of Chinese price advertisements indicates a distinct tendency to favor the digit 8 and to avoid the digit 4. These results constitute evidence of the role of superstition in the Chinese marketplace and provide guidance for setting prices in this increasingly important market.[/quote]

Superstition 2

Quote
Superstitions were demonstrated with human subjects when presses on one button were reinforced on a VI 30-sec schedule while presses on a second were never reinforced. Superstitious responding, on the second button, was often maintained because presses on that button were frequently followed by reinforcement for a subsequent press on the first button. The introduction of a changeover delay (COD), which separated in time presses on the second button and subsequent reinforced presses on the first button, reduced or eliminated the superstitious responding of these subjects. Some complex superstitions were also demonstrated with other subjects for which the COD was in effect from the beginning of the session


Superstition 3

Quote
Italy's highest appeals court ruled that a 42-year-old workman broke the law by "ostentatiously touching his genitals through his clothing" and must pay a 200 euro fine, the Telegraph reported Friday. The U.K. paper also noted that crotch-grabbing is a common habit among superstitious Italian males, who believe the gesture wards off bad luck. What does the crotch have to do with luck?



Superstition 4

Quote
The trouble with numbers

Until quite recently, 13 was considered a lucky number in Italy—or was thought to be as harmless as other digits. According to Catholic tradition, however, there were 13 people at the table during the Last Supper, and Jesus was crucified on Friday the 13th. Thus, Italy has adopted the popular European belief that 13 invites as much misfortune as the country’s traditionally unlucky number—17. The reasoning behind 17’s stigma is twofold. If you re-arrange the Roman numeral XVII, it spells the Latin word vixi, a phrase often inscribed on tombs and gravestones. It translates as ‘he lived’ and is considered a sure-fire way to tempt death to come to your doorstep. The digits 1 and 7 also evoke fatal imagery—the one represents a hanged man, while the seven recalls the gallows.



Superstition 5

Quote
Seven is just a magic number, not necessarily lucky. In the Bible there are all sorts of sevens. For example, when Joseph prophesies for the pharaoh, he tells him there will be seven lean years and seven years of plenty. Those seven lean years are not a good thing! When the Bible tells about bad stuff, it's often in multiples of seven. Some stuff will go on happening for seven generations, or even for seven times seven generations! That's forty-nine, in case you forgot your times table (I forget mine periodically). If I felt more ambitious, I'd go through more books of the Bible and I'd give you a lot more examples, but this ought to make the point. If you're interested, you can read the Bible through yourself and you can make the count yourself. Just make a little list of all the numbers and what they're for, how many are good things and how many are bad. I think you'll find that whoever did the writings just liked certain numbers like 3 and 7 and 12, but they didn't care for certain other numbers, like 5 and 8 and you won't find those other numbers very often.


Numerology

Quote
Numerology in the Bible

Biblical numerology is symbolism portrayed through numbers in the Bible.[6] Many numbers in the Bible, especially in the book of Daniel and Revelation, contain symbolic meaning, but the majority of the numbers only portray their literal, mathematic connotations, devoid of any symbolic significance.[citation needed]

A well known example of Bible numerology is 666, the Number of the Beast.[7]

Leading figures in the study of numerology in the Bible include E. W. Bullinger, the author of Number in Scripture,[8], who had been influenced by Dr Milo Mahan's book Palmoni; [9] and Ivan Panin who produced numeric patterns that he claimed to be found in the Bible. Panin's patterns are sometimes called Bible Numerology.

[edit] Number 3

The number three is symbolic of "completeness," or "divine perfection".[10][11][12] Examples include, the Holy Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) being God and Christ was dead for 3 days before being resurrected. Also, the three sons of the god Cronos. (Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades.)

[edit] Number 7

The number 7 in Hebrew comes from the root word to mean "complete" or "full".[10][11] It is taken to mean "spiritual perfection".[13] This may be from the 7 naked-eye planets.

[edit] Number 10

Ten denotes ordinal perfection[10][11][14]

[edit] Number 12

This number 12 is considered significant as representing Government and "Twelve denotes governmental perfection";[10][11][15] There are 12 months governing a year, 2 cycles of 12 to govern the day and night, 12 tribes of Israel, 12 Olympians and 12 Uranides in the Greek pantheon, and 12 apostles established by Jesus to govern the body of his church - fulfilling the Great Commission (Mark 16:15), and the Roman decemvirs wrote laws called the Twelve Tables.

[edit] Specific criticism of Bible numerology

Critics of Bible numerology note that there is no command in scripture to pursue numerology:

    "Neither the Catholic Canon of 73 books nor the 66 books of the Protestant Bible contains a single scriptural command or encouragement for Christian believers to practice biblical numerology."[16][17]



Quote from: Zarkov;865627
Can't see any deletions for the previous 3 pages.

You should be called Paranoid Duck.


Odd...I did a search but couldn't find it...may not even be the right thread :eek:

Hey...what's that?....over there....it's coming to get me!


Edit: I found it, in the Darwin thread....still it's relevant to both, I guess...

Reply #6198 Posted: January 09, 2009, 04:24:08 pm
A mere friend will agree with you, but a real friend will argue.

Russian Proverb

Offline DDM

  • Addicted
  • DDM has no influence.
  • Posts: 3,908
Quote from: AŠidBľrn;865586
Where did you get that assumption from? Seven is the number of God, Three is the Holy Trinity, Six is Hell/Satan and Four is Man. I'm not sure on One, Two, and Five but I'm sure Google will help me in seconds.


I've never associated numbers with those meanings.. is this a purely religious thing? You get crucified in here if your topic point relates solely to "facts" of a religious nature.

I do however think 5 is a fantastic number, though thats only because its the number i wore during my early sporting days.

Reply #6199 Posted: January 09, 2009, 05:20:37 pm