Topic: Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

Offline Arnifix

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Quote from: St!g;906709
He's not a human, why would he conform to our trends and habits. That doesn't even make sense...


What proof do you have of this?

Reply #6475 Posted: March 19, 2009, 10:26:00 am

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Offline Dr Woomanchu

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Quote from: Arnifix;906759
What proof do you have of this?


Because it is his god. Are you suggesting you know more about stigs' god than he does?

Reply #6476 Posted: March 19, 2009, 10:30:31 am

Blackwatch Off Topic - Abandon hope all ye who enter here

Offline Arnifix

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Quote from: Dr_Woohoo;906765
Because it is his god. Are you suggesting you know more about stigs' god than he does?


More suggesting that in a realm of pure conjecture, shit gets fucked up brah.

Reply #6477 Posted: March 19, 2009, 10:32:38 am

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Offline Bell

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;906757
In that regard, how would science explain Moses hearing a voice in a burning bush? Or a space monster giving Moses two stone tablets with commandments on them? Or, perhaps more relevant, how does science explain the mass delusion of billions of people who believe they have experienced and hear from God regularly?


Moses was smoking crack/he lied/he made the tablets or
Quote
When ancient scribes copied earlier books, they wrote notes on the margins of the page (marginal glosses) to correct their text—especially if a scribe accidentally omitted a word or line—and to comment about the text. When later scribes were copying the copy, they were sometimes uncertain if a note was intended to be included as part of the text. Over time, different regions evolved different versions, each with its own assemblage of omissions and additions.

People have the amazing ability to delude themselves (it makes things easier)
It has been proven that when you remember something you actually recontruct that memory it isn't just sitting around in your head.
This means as time passed our recontruction of our memories becomes filled with more and more errors.
There have been recorded examples of people who tell a single lie enough time so that thier lie actually becomes part of their memory and they believe it actually happened.

I'm not saying people who hear god are all lying, im saying people who believe something slighly amazing happened to them ( that could be explained by science) over time will build that memory up to be more amazing than it actually was (which science can't explain).

Reply #6478 Posted: March 19, 2009, 12:28:35 pm

Offline Bell

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;906757
Do you believe there are things in this world - not necessarily god, or to do with a particular belief system - that can't be explained through science? Anything at all?

I think the human mind might not be able fully be understood, because the tool we use to try and figure out how something works is our human mind.

How does something figure out how itself works?

Reply #6479 Posted: March 19, 2009, 12:34:47 pm

Offline UppityDuck

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;906757

In that regard, how would science explain Moses hearing a voice in a burning bush? Or a space monster giving Moses two stone tablets with commandments on them?


Science would use the rational approach, based on observation etc.

Quote
Graphic granite is a term used to describe a very distinctive igneous texture seen in some samples of granite. The texture comprises angular crystals of grey quartz (ranging in length from 1 to 12 mm) embedded within coarse-grained, light-grey to pink alkali feldspar. The size, shape and orientation of the quartz grains (in relation to each other) gives the outward appearance of cuneiform characters, which were used in the alphabets of several Mesopotamian cultures. The name "graphic granite" is derived from the Greek graphos, meaning "writing" (not because the rock is fond of excessive violence or sexual situations). The quartz crystals are actually rod-shaped, and the wedge pattern is best observed in cross-section.

Contrary to outward appearances, graphic granite is not an example of a porphyritic texture. "Porphyritic" is a genetic term, implying that the individual minerals crystalized from the magma at different times and temperatures. In fact, graphic granite is only formed when alkali feldspar and quartz are crystallizing at the same time and at constant rates. These conditions describe a point where temperature and the bulk composition of the magma are in equilibrium; when these factors are plotted in a phase diagram, this point (the eutectic) is readily identifiable.

Other terms used to describe graphic granite include: Hebrew stone, Hebraic pegmatite, corduroy rock and runite (from the Norse runes, which the wedges also resemble).


http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp132/uppityduck/graphicgranite1_cb.jpg
Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread


Source

That sorts out the 10 commandments, in tandem with psychedelic mushrooms and a tradition of Patriarchy.

Also: On the Origin of Graphic Granite


The burning Bush: Study of Dictamnus gymnostylis Volatiles and Plausible Explanation of the "Burning Bush" Phenomenon While this particular bush is not a candidate due to its geographical location, it shows an intriguing possibility. Palynological studies of the area where Moses 'experienced' this would assist as well, as they may show that there were related species in times passed.

Quote
The detailed study of volatiles of Dictamnus gymnostylis Steven. (Dictamnus albus L., original polymorphic species) considered by many to be the Burning Bush of the Bible, was conducted. In addition to methyl chavicol (~15%), (E)-anethole (~7%) and psoralen (~7%), the presence of over 60% of 1-allyl-4- (3-methyl-2-butenyloxy) benzene (dictagymnin) was confirmed. It was shown that this chemical rather easily decomposes into chavicol and very flammable hydrocarbon 2-methyl-1,3-butadiene = isoprene (b.p. 34°C). The secretion of isoprene, which can be especially intense on hot windless days, leads to formation of the isoprene cloud that may inflame without any harm to the source plant.






Quote from: ThaFleastyler;906757
Or, perhaps more relevant, how does science explain the mass delusion of billions of people who believe they have experienced and hear from God regularly?


Well, for one Science would say that it isn't billions. Then there would be studies about the perception of the internal dialogue as an external entity.
I would suggest mass psychosis combined with the power of suggestion.
A lot of people have been conditioned to believe unquestionably (no, really, blind faith is a great comforter it would seem) and to say that it is outside the realms of Science is to concede that it isn't testable and therefore, for all intents and purposes doesn't exist.


Quote from: ThaFleastyler;906757
Do you believe there are things in this world - not necessarily god, or to do with a particular belief system - that can't be explained through science? Anything at all?


At this stage, Science doesn't even pretend to hold all the answers, and we are some way off from developing a grand unifying theory of everything. There is a higher chance, in my opinion, of Science achieving this than of God being proved.

Reply #6480 Posted: March 19, 2009, 01:15:47 pm
A mere friend will agree with you, but a real friend will argue.

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Offline Dr Woomanchu

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Quote from: UppityDuck;906886
Science doesn't even pretend to hold all the answers, and we are some way off from developing a grand unifying theory of everything. There is a higher chance, in my opinion, of Science achieving this than of God being proved.


Even if we achieve a GUTOE it still won't answer the subjective human experience.

In the objective universe, we are so infinitesimal that if the universe is granular in nature as has been suggested recently, we may not in fact, exist. However, we don't live in the objective universe, we live in our subjective universe, much of which is shared with the experiential universes of the rest of the human race. Here, religion is a very real thing. As real as gravity to some. It provides an invaluable tool for large numbers of people to make some sense of their universe, and find a way to live in it.

Science is about the objective universe. God isn't needed there.

Reply #6481 Posted: March 19, 2009, 02:29:35 pm

Blackwatch Off Topic - Abandon hope all ye who enter here

Offline UppityDuck

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Quote from: Dr_Woohoo;906943
Even if we achieve a GUTOE it still won't answer the subjective human experience....

 Here, religion is a very real thing. As real as gravity to some. It provides an invaluable tool for large numbers of people to make some sense of their universe, and find a way to live in it.

Science is about the objective universe. God isn't needed there.


Yes, I agree with you, but it doesn't stop me pushing my subjectivity!

There is some really interesting research, as you say, about the nature of the Universe with regards to dimensionality, fractals, holographs etc etc and I'll try to dig up some links sometime.

Reply #6482 Posted: March 19, 2009, 02:34:58 pm
A mere friend will agree with you, but a real friend will argue.

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Offline Zig

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Quote from: UppityDuck;906748

How do you know he's not a human....a super-evolved human with a time machine? That's plausible.


It's plausible...but to assume he is and try and predict his behavior or personality based on that assumption would be rather unscientific.

Reply #6483 Posted: March 19, 2009, 04:28:21 pm

Offline UppityDuck

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Quote from: St!g;907061
It's plausible...but to assume he is and try and predict his behavior or personality based on that assumption would be rather unscientific.



Actually, no...that would be a good Scientific first step!

Reply #6484 Posted: March 19, 2009, 05:21:37 pm
A mere friend will agree with you, but a real friend will argue.

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Offline Zig

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Quote from: UppityDuck;907118
Actually, no...that would be a good Scientific first step!

I disagree. If you start with assumptions about God, there are almost infinite logical paths to follow because the initial assumptions you would make are so varied. And unlike humans there is no reason to prioritize assumptions, which is the very reason why we can predict human behavior.

Reply #6485 Posted: March 19, 2009, 05:41:54 pm

Offline KiLL3r

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Quote from: St!g;907061
It's plausible...but to assume he is and try and predict his behavior or personality based on that assumption would be rather unscientific.


no that would be a hypothesis

Reply #6486 Posted: March 19, 2009, 05:42:57 pm


Offline cobra

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;906757


Do you believe there are things in this world - not necessarily god, or to do with a particular belief system - that can't be explained through science? Anything at all?


that question is difficult but the simple answer is no, science doesn't explain everything there are plenty of things out side of sciences scopes - for example, questions like "why do people listen to lady gaga and coldplay" science would be of little use, that is more for the psychologists and the sociologists - the tools of science are excellent for working out most things but like most tools you can only use it for appropriate jobs

one of my favourite quotes

"if a thing is not a science, it is not necessarily bad. For example, love is not a science. So, if something is said not to be a science, it does not mean that there is something wrong with it; it just means that it is not a science."

-Richard P. Feynman, from his "Lectures on Physics" (well worth downloading and listening to)

but a similar challenge that i will give you - are there any questions that religion can answer?

Quote from: Zhija;906733
I lol'd tbh. Of course, that makes perfect sense. If there's no God then a talking burning bush and a space monster giving you tablets with rules on them are perfectly normal. No need to question anything at all there.


my point is that these things dont happen that is why there is no need to question them - if they did happen then there would be a need to explain them, but nothing ever happens that needs god to explain.

Reply #6487 Posted: March 19, 2009, 06:31:57 pm

Offline swindle

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Quote from: St!g;907128
which is the very reason why we can predict human behavior.

False

Reply #6488 Posted: March 19, 2009, 06:38:45 pm
If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

Offline Zhija

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Quote from: cobra;907182

my point is that these things dont happen that is why there is no need to question them - if they did happen then there would be a need to explain them, but nothing ever happens that needs god to explain.


I know I got that I just thought your example was worded very badly.


Quote from: ™swindLe..;907191
False


Read "The art of war" by that asian dude.

Reply #6489 Posted: March 19, 2009, 06:41:59 pm

Offline Zig

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Quote from: ™swindLe..;907191
False
Substantial post there...

Psychology is the study of the human mind and behavior, and because we have studied and analyzed it is the very reason why we can predict patterns that humans will likely follow under a set of circumstances.

And those predictions always spring from a reasonable assumption, namely that this human will react similarly to the circumstances in the way that previous examples have.

EDIT: Sun Tzu...

Reply #6490 Posted: March 19, 2009, 06:50:00 pm

Offline swindle

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Quote from: St!g;907199
why we can predict patterns that humans will likely follow under a set of circumstances.

...Yes

I put a mouse at one end of a tube, and some cheese and the other end, i'd say he'll go for it.

Its hardly prediction under set circumstances. Human behavior cannot be predicted and it is naive to think so.

Reply #6491 Posted: March 19, 2009, 07:00:41 pm
If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

Offline Dante

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"It could be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure."

 -- Albert Einstein

Reply #6492 Posted: March 19, 2009, 08:09:02 pm

Offline Dante

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Ah and just for the hell of it, here are some more quotes from Einstein; one of the greatest scientists that has lived in recent history (and arguably one of the greatest of all time). One thing I think many people don't realize about Einstein is that he was not just an incredible scientist of great intellect, but was also a great philosopher and a deeply spiritual man.

Even though I don't agree with all of the views he held, I love much of his writings because he had some really wise and meaningful things to say - including many of his criticisms of organized religion. Just curious as to what you lot think of some of his thoughts on life, science and religion:

(no I didn't just drop in to spam a bunch of quotes, there are some posts I would like to respond to; but I just wanted to share this in the mean time..)


Quote

"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a Holy curiosity."

"What is the meaning of human life, or of organic life altogether? To answer this question at all implies a religion. Is there any sense then, you ask, in putting it? I answer, the man who regards his own life and that of his fellow creatures as meaningless is not merely unfortunate but almost disqualified for life."

"If one purges the Judaism of the Prophets and Christianity as Jesus Christ taught it of all subsequent additions, especially those of the priests, one is left with a teaching which is capable of curing all the social ills of humanity.
It is the duty of every man of good will to strive steadfastly to make this teaching of pure humanity a living force, so far as he can."

"As a child, I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene.

Jesus is too colossal for the pen of phrasemongers, however artful. No man can dispose of Christianity with a bon mot. No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life."

"All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man's life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards freedom."

"One has a feeling that one has a kind of home in this timeless community of human beings that strive for truth. … I have always believed that Jesus meant by the Kingdom of God the small group scattered all through time of intellectually and ethically valuable people."

"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science. Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder, no longer marvel, is as good as dead, and his eyes are dimmed.  To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness."

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views.  Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible concatenations, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent I am, in point of fact, religious."

"I maintain that the cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific research. Only those who realize the immense efforts and, above all, the devotion without which pioneer work in theoretical science cannot be achieved are able to grasp the strength of the emotion out of which alone such work, remote as it is from the immediate realities of life, can issue.

"What a deep conviction of the rationality of the universe and what a yearning to understand, were it but a feeble reflection of the mind revealed in this world, Kepler and Newton must have had to enable them to spend years of solitary labor in disentangling the principles of celestial mechanics! Those whose acquaintance with scientific research is derived chiefly from its practical results easily develop a completely false notion of the mentality of the men who, surrounded by a skeptical world, have shown the way to kindred spirits scattered wide through the world and through the centuries."

"Only one who has devoted his life to similar ends can have a vivid realization of what has inspired these men and given them the strength to remain true to their purpose in spite of countless failures. It is cosmic religious feeling that gives a man such strength."

"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilisation should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."

"I have never looked upon ease and happiness as ends in themselves -- this critical basis I call the ideal of a pigsty. The ideals that have lighted my way, and time after time have given me new courage to face life cheerfully, have been Kindness, Beauty, and Truth. Without the sense of kinship with men of like mind, without the occupation with the objective world, the eternally unattainable in the field of art and scientific endeavors, life would have seemed empty to me. The trite objects of human efforts -- possessions, outward success, luxury -- have always seemed to me contemptible."

"Only a life lived for others is a life worth living."

"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding."

"The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker."

"The life of the individual has meaning only insofar as it aids in making the life of every living thing nobler and more beautiful. Life is sacred, that is to say, it is the supreme value, to which all other values are subordinate."


edit: noob typos.

Reply #6493 Posted: March 19, 2009, 08:59:07 pm

Offline Zig

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Quote from: ™swindLe..;907206
...Yes

I put a mouse at one end of a tube, and some cheese and the other end, i'd say he'll go for it.

Its hardly prediction under set circumstances. Human behavior cannot be predicted and it is naive to think so.

Counselling, marketing, and education are all based on predicting behavior to some extent. Of course humans are variable and can never be predicted absolutely, but the relative success of each of the above areas demonstrates that, yes, humans do follow patterns and can be predicted with some accuracy.

And I said 'a set' of circumstances, not 'set circumstances'.

Reply #6494 Posted: March 19, 2009, 09:29:06 pm

Offline swindle

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Quote from: St!g;907291
Counselling, marketing, and education are all based on predicting behavior to some extent. Of course humans are variable and can never be predicted absolutely, but the relative success of each of the above areas demonstrates that, yes, humans do follow patterns and can be predicted with some accuracy.

Really?

To some, perhaps a past extent, you are correct. But take a long hard look at the world now...

Things are changing, and im pretty sure no one is going to be able to predict jack shit.

Reply #6495 Posted: March 19, 2009, 09:40:13 pm
If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

Offline Bell

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What is different about human nature from 30 years ago?

Reply #6496 Posted: March 19, 2009, 09:46:09 pm

Offline swindle

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Quote from: Bell;907297
What is different about human nature from 30 years ago?

Not much, more so the fact we have become better at going about it.

Reply #6497 Posted: March 19, 2009, 09:56:27 pm
If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

Offline huey31415

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Quote from: Dante;907282
here are some more quotes from Einstein; one of the greatest scientists that has lived in recent history (and arguably one of the greatest of all time).


I would say Sir Isaac Newton is the greatest of all time, due to the enormous contributions in so many different fields, including mathematics (the invention of Calculus is an amazing feat in itself), astronomy, physics (Newton's 3 laws of physics), alchemy etc.

Newton saw God as the master creator whose existence could not be denied in the face of the grandeur of all creation.

Quote
In a manuscript he wrote in 1704 in which he describes his attempts to extract scientific information from the Bible, he estimated that the world would end no earlier than 2060. In predicting this he said, "This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fanciful men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, and by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail."
58

Reply #6498 Posted: March 19, 2009, 09:58:07 pm

Offline Bell

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Quote from: ™swindLe..;907303
Not much, more so the fact we have become better at going about it.


Can you at explain what you mean by this.
And what is changing exactly?

Reply #6499 Posted: March 19, 2009, 10:02:44 pm